So Im a Pessimist

[Werewolf]

SS, do you realize that HALF of the nation pays about 3% of income taxes?  And that the other half pays 97%??

What more of a tax cut does that first half even need?

Again, this falls into the category of "they don't deserve a tax cut," not, "Obama is/is not going to cut most people's taxes."

When obama lobbies congress to let Bush's tax cuts expire - that will be a tax increase.
When obama raises the top tax bracket to 53% that will be a tax increase
When obama raises the capital gains tax to 28% that will be a tax increase
When obama causes SSA to be increased that will be a tax increase
When obama demands we all perform public service that will be a tax increase

When thousands or millions lose their jobs as a result of the damage all that will do to the economy (which is doing just fine and is only perceived to be tanking by the mindless masses because the media tells them so) that will be worse than any tax increase.

obama is the 1st person running for president that has made me fear for the USA. he's the 1st that has created a knot of anger and frustration in my chest.

obama's socialism will destroy the USA if he gets his way. And the bleeding heart masses suckered by his BS will go to their graves blaming everyone but him and the fools that gave him the power to do it.

AND yes that's a lower case 'o' on purpose. That person, a product of the Chicago democratic machine, whose strings are pulled by Daley, deserves no more.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

When you say the bottom half pays three percent of the taxes...they are still all paying taxes, just not in the amounts paid by the top 3 percent.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, and I'm disinclined to go look them up right now.  But taurusowner is right.   Members of the bottom half of the population (more or less) may get hit with small taxes here and there, but they receive more from the government in terms of services and handouts than they pay in taxes.  On balance they don't pay a tax burden, they are net beneficiaries of public money.

[De Selby]

Members of the bottom half of the population (more or less) may get hit with small taxes here and there, but they receive more from the government in terms of services and handouts than they pay in taxes.  On balance they don't pay a tax burden, they are net beneficiaries of public money.

Yeah, but Obama's plan covers people from 200,000 on down.  There is no way you can sustain the argument that people who make between 25,000 and 200,000 are "net beneficiaries" of the tax system.

But in any case, this is all arguing that the middle class don't deserve tax cuts.  If you want to argue that, be my guest, but I don't see anyone disputing here that Obama's plan is in fact to cut taxes for most individuals.

[De Selby]

SS, do you realize that HALF of the nation pays about 3% of income taxes?  And that the other half pays 97%??

What more of a tax cut does that first half even need?

Again, this falls into the category of "they don't deserve a tax cut," not, "Obama is/is not going to cut most people's taxes."

When obama lobbies congress to let Bush's tax cuts expire - that will be a tax increase.
When obama raises the top tax bracket to 53% that will be a tax increase
When obama raises the capital gains tax to 28% that will be a tax increase
When obama causes SSA to be increased that will be a tax increase
When obama demands we all perform public service that will be a tax increase

When thousands or millions lose their jobs as a result of the damage all that will do to the economy (which is doing just fine and is only perceived to be tanking by the mindless masses because the media tells them so) that will be worse than any tax increase.

obama is the 1st person running for president that has made me fear for the USA. he's the 1st that has created a knot of anger and frustration in my chest.

obama's socialism will destroy the USA if he gets his way. And the bleeding heart masses suckered by his BS will go to their graves blaming everyone but him and the fools that gave him the power to do it.

AND yes that's a lower case 'o' on purpose. That person, a product of the Chicago democratic machine, whose strings are pulled by Daley, deserves no more.

Hey, like I said-this is all in the category of "Obama's tax cut plan isn't a good one."

Obama will raise taxes for a smaller percentage of the population-perhaps the effects will be disastrous, as you say. 

But he'll also cut taxes for the majority of the population-no question about that, based on waht we know so far.

Personally, I think the idea that cutting taxes for 95 percent of the population and balancing the cut off the backs of those making 250,000 is...not going to lead to the end of the world.  The hype that surrounds this so far is equivalent to the "global warming" hype-yeah, even if it's bad, we're not all going to choke and die within one week after the next car gets onto the road. 

I also think that the Bush method of taxation and regulation speaks for itself-if you think the economy is doing just dandy right now, vote for more of it, by all means.  But I suspect you will find that your arguments fall on deaf ears come November.

[thebaldguy]

I think that unemployment and inflation are already in double digits, as the methods used to calculate are highly rigged. I think more banks will begin to fail. I think things will be the same or worse for at least the next 3-5 years.

I see more reasons for things to get worse than better. On the other hand, this could be the "buy low" part of "buy low, sell high" when it comes to investments. Retirement for me is 17 years away, and I'm ready to gamble that things will get somewhat better by then.

[taurusowner]

SS, you appear not to have a leg to stand on.  You keep coming back to a semantic wording argument about "the plan technically is kind of a tax cut" instead of addressing the real issue of it being a disaster for the nation and not really a tax cut for the people who actually pay taxes.  Can you please stop harping on the wording and concentrate on addressing the real effect of Obama's socialist ideas?

[De Selby]

SS, you appear not to have a leg to stand on.  You keep coming back to a semantic wording argument about "the plan technically is kind of a tax cut" instead of addressing the real issue of it being a disaster for the nation and not really a tax cut for the people who actually pay taxes.  Can you please stop harping on the wording and concentrate on addressing the real effect of Obama's socialist ideas?

Okay, so are you denying that he's actually proposing to cut taxes for most of the population?

Or are you just saying that there are bigger issues at stake?

Pointing out that he's proposing a tax cut is not "harping on the wording"-that's not a technical matter.  The plan either will reduce the amount of taxes paid to the government for people making under 200,000 per year, or it will not.  That's an easy question to answer.

It looks to me like you're just saying that Obama's tax cuts will spell disaster, or that the people who will get tax cuts don't deserve them.  Which is it, and how does this is any way contradict what I'm saying here?

I've said repeatedly that I do not know if this tax policy will be good-but it is a cut.  Why can't we call a spade a spade when it comes to Obama's policies? 

[taurusowner]

But the people who are getting "their taxes cut" don't pay enough taxes already for it to count as a cut.  These are the same people collecting taxes through government programs.  Overall, it's still not really a cut.  Cutting from people who pay a fraction of taxes and increasing the burden on the rest of us doesn't count as a cut. 

Obama is still raising the taxes of people who actually pay them: a tax increase.

[De Selby]

So you actually think that the people who make between 25,000 and 200,000 do not pay enough taxes at current?

I'm not sure you can find any numbers or statistics or evidence of any kind to justify this claim.

[taurusowner]

I think everyone pays too much.  But increasing the taxes of those who already bare the brunt of burden, while marginally decreasing the taxes of those who don't really pay them in the first place, due to their collecting from .gov programs, is just a smokescreen to trick people like you into thinking Obama is for less taxes and less government, when he is most certainly the opposite.

If the people who pay most of the taxes are getting theirs increased, it's not a tax cut.  Period.

[Werewolf]

...I suspect you will find that your arguments fall on deaf ears come November.

I believe I already made that point...

...And the bleeding heart masses suckered by his (obama's) BS will go to their graves blaming everyone but him and the fools that gave him the power to do it.

[Perd Hapley]

Is there anyone here that would not like to see taxes reduced for all brackets? 

[taurusowner]

The only way to do that is to fire a lot of the government.  And no politician is going to do that, especially not Obama.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Is there anyone here that would not like to see taxes reduced for all brackets? 

If Riley were here I'm sure he'd have all sorts of reasons why some people should pay more in taxes.

Shootinstudent also seems reluctant to speak out against raising the taxes on certain of his fellow citizens.

[Perd Hapley]

Bother all of that.  shootinstudent's comments, whether he intends it or not, might lead one to believe that you nasty conservative Republicans don't want to cut taxes for the middle class/working class.  Is this so? 

My assumption is that most of us would like to see taxes reduced on all brackets that actually pay a tax (even if they get tax money in govt. bennies). 

[De Selby]

Bother all of that.  shootinstudent's comments, whether he intends it or not, might lead one to believe that you nasty conservative Republicans don't want to cut taxes for the middle class/working class.  Is this so? 

My assumption is that most of us would like to see taxes reduced on all brackets that actually pay a tax (even if they get tax money in govt. bennies). 

I don't believe this is a feature of Republicans, but it is obviously the belief of some posters on this thread.  For example:

But the people who are getting "their taxes cut" don't pay enough taxes already for it to count as a cut. 

But taurusowner is right.    Members of the bottom half of the population (more or less) may get hit with small taxes here and there, but they receive more from the government in terms of services and handouts than they pay in taxes.  On balance they don't pay a tax burden, they are net beneficiaries of public money.

In the context of what I'm saying here, that sure looks to me like they don't think the folks making under 250,000 are paying enough taxes.

[taurusowner]

Are you going to ignore the "for it to count as a cut" all night?

[Perd Hapley]

In the context of what I'm saying here, that sure looks to me like they don't think the folks making under 250,000 are paying enough taxes.

Paying enough taxes for a reduced tax rate to count as a cut, then.  That's not what I'm asking.  I'm simply interested in knowing whether anyone here WOULD NOT like to see a simple reduction in the rates for all brackets. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

In the context of what I'm saying here, that sure looks to me like they don't think the folks making under 250,000 are paying enough taxes.

You can't be serious...

[roo_ster]

Obama will raise taxes for a smaller percentage of the population-perhaps the effects will be disastrous, as you say. 

Personally, I think the idea that cutting taxes for 95 percent of the population and balancing the cut off the backs of those making 250,000 is...not going to lead to the end of the world.  The hype that surrounds this so far is equivalent to the "global warming" hype-yeah, even if it's bad, we're not all going to choke and die within one week after the next car gets onto the road.

Putting aside the semantic arguments, I would address something you brushed up against:
I think that not only will we feel the effects of Obamian policy sooner rather than later.  I would also suggest that we are already seeing the effects of his policy.

Sooner vs Later
IME, events, causes, and effects happen more quickly, these days.  I would attribute this to the broader and deeper amount of data available as well as the speed of its dissemination.  This goes hand in hand with Hayek's model of the market as an information system.

A fine example of recent bad policy coming home to kick us in the jimmy is corn ethanol fuel additive.

Causes:
1. Congress mandates ethanol use as an oxygenate
2. Subsidize fuel ethanol by $0.51/gal
Effects:
1. Corn price goes apey through the roof
2. Acreage formerly devoted to other crops diverted to corn to cash in on the ethanol bubble
3. The substitution effect WRT corn & substitutes as well as less acreage for those substitutes causes other grains to take off
4. Difficulty in transporting that much ethanol around the country contributes to increasing fuel prices

That took what, one or two years?  I think it took that long because of the nature of agriculture has some rather severe time constraints (growing season, etc.).

If Obama does something stupid like raise the cap gains rate ad you can bet dollars to doughnuts that the Dow will adjust severely downward to show the lesser value of all equities.  Fast.

Actually, RIGHT FREAKING NOW

The POTUS election market has Obama on top.  I think part of the current instability and drive down in the major indices is in anticipation of Obama's victory and the smart money seeking shelter to weather Hurricane Obama and his maxrist economic policy.

[Nick1911]

If Obama does something stupid like raise the cap gains rate ad you can bet dollars to doughnuts that the Dow will adjust severely downward to show the lesser value of all equities.  Fast.

Actually, RIGHT FREAKING NOW

The POTUS election market has Obama on top.  I think part of the current instability and drive down in the major indices is in anticipation of Obama's victory and the smart money seeking shelter to weather Hurricane Obama and his maxrist economic policy.

I don't know about the validity of it, but it's an interesting thought to ponder.  But why pull cash out of the market now?  Why not wait until this fall?

[MechAg94]

The net effect of Obama's proposal is to raise taxes.  Whether you think a few people will see lower taxes is really just smoke.  He is raising taxes overall and trying to increase money to the govt.  Even if it came out even between rich and poor, it is just shifting tax burden, not cutting taxes overall. 

To go back to my previous post, when was the last time a Democrat really proposed tax cuts.  As said above, Obama's plan as stated is not a tax cut, just more tax-the-rich stuff.

To add to that, when was the last time a Democrat Congress actually cut taxes for real?  I was thinking maybe in the 80's after Reagan came in. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If Obama does something stupid like raise the cap gains rate ad you can bet dollars to doughnuts that the Dow will adjust severely downward to show the lesser value of all equities.  Fast.

Actually, RIGHT FREAKING NOW

The POTUS election market has Obama on top.  I think part of the current instability and drive down in the major indices is in anticipation of Obama's victory and the smart money seeking shelter to weather Hurricane Obama and his maxrist economic policy.

I don't know about the validity of it, but it's an interesting thought to ponder.  But why pull cash out of the market now?  Why not wait until this fall?

The business people I talk to say this is true.  There is a lot of apprehension about a potential Obama presidency and what it impacts it might have on everyones' ability to run a successful business in the future. 

Business owners sense that new taxes, regulations, and restrictions are on the way.  Nobody can get a sense for what kind of obligations they'll be able to meet in this uncertain future.  Uncertain of their future means, many business owners are putting things on hold, afraid to take any risks with durations longer than half a year.  That's not a recipe for a growing economy.

Likewise, many investors are slowing the pace of their trades, and many are withdrawing from the market completely.  The general sentiment is that you can't play a game when the rules are constantly changing.  Better to stay out of the game until after you get a look at the new rules.

[roo_ster]

If Obama does something stupid like raise the cap gains rate ad you can bet dollars to doughnuts that the Dow will adjust severely downward to show the lesser value of all equities.  Fast.

Actually, RIGHT FREAKING NOW

The POTUS election market has Obama on top.  I think part of the current instability and drive down in the major indices is in anticipation of Obama's victory and the smart money seeking shelter to weather Hurricane Obama and his maxrist economic policy.

I don't know about the validity of it, but it's an interesting thought to ponder.  But why pull cash out of the market now?  Why not wait until this fall?

You mean wait until EVERYBODY is CERTAIN what is in store? 

When everyone & their brother, on the second Wednesday in November, has pulled their investments in equities and stuffed them in bonds/gold/mattresses and the stock market has tanked? 

Hell, the question ought to be, "Why not dump now?" not "Why dump now?"  Anyone expect a significant upturn between now & the second Tuesday in November?

Personally, I have not dumped stocks.  But, I won't retire for another 30 years.