Author Topic: OK, the World Court has ruled...  (Read 20725 times)

K Frame

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OK, the World Court has ruled...
« on: July 16, 2008, 08:12:10 AM »
now let's see them enforce their ruling...


"THE HAGUE (Reuters) - The World Court ordered the United States on Wednesday to do all it could to halt the imminent executions of five Mexicans until the court makes a final judgment in a dispute over suspects' rights.

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The row, which has strained relations between the neighbors, centers on the fact that the United States failed to inform 51 of its citizens sentenced to die in U.S. jails of their right to consular assistance.

One of the five Mexicans on death row, Jose Medellin, is due to die on August 5 in Texas.

In 2004, the World Court ruled in favor of Mexico, finding the United States had violated international law, and ordered it to review the 51 cases to see whether the lack of consular assistance had prejudiced the outcome of their trials.

A year later, U.S. President George W. Bush ordered Texas to review Medellin's case but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in March that Bush had no authority to do so, leading Texas to schedule Medellin's execution for August.

"The court indicates that the United States of America shall take all measures necessary to ensure that five Mexican nationals are not executed pending its final judgment," Judge Rosalyn Higgins said.

Mexico has asked the World Court or International Court of Justice (ICJ) for an interpretation of its 2004 ruling, given U.S. assertions that its federal states have a large degree of legal autonomy and it cannot compel them to review the cases.

LOOMING EXECUTION

Representing Mexico at the court, the United Nations' highest legal body, Jorge Lomonaco Tonda said: "The Mexican government is satisfied with the ruling of the court ... we have full confidence that the ruling will be applied."

A gang member, Medellin was denied the right to meet a consular official from Mexico after his arrest for the June 1993 rape and murder of two teenage girls in Houston. The killings were linked to a gang initiation.

Under the Vienna Convention, foreign nationals have a right to talk to consular officers after their arrests.

John Bellinger, a legal adviser to the U.S. State Department, said the U.S. government had acknowledged it was obliged to review the cases and was talking to the state of Texas to try to get it to comply with the ICJ ruling.

But he added: "This court's orders do not have direct technical effect in the United States."

If Texas executed Medellin it would violate the international legal obligations of the United States yet still be legal under Texan state laws, he said.

Texas has said Medellin was never told he could talk to Mexican officials. But it has added that the claim cannot be made now because he never raised it at trial or sentencing.

Even if his treaty rights had been violated, it would not have made any difference in the outcome of the case, Texas said.

Thirty-eight U.S. states still have the death penalty, of which Texas has carried out the most executions.

Last year 42 people were put to death in the United States, but the number was artificially low because of a de facto moratorium issued by the Supreme Court, while it examined arguments that the cocktail of three drugs used in most U.S. executions inflicted unnecessary pain.

The ICJ is responsible for handling disputes between U.N. member states. Its rulings -- which often take years -- are binding and not subject to appeal."
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Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 08:14:33 AM »
now let's see them enforce their ruling...

I'd rather watch them pound sand. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 08:26:48 AM »
Tell them to go get busy in Saudi Arabia, Iran and other such places where they don't make a peep about executions of actual innocent people.

agricola

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 08:29:35 AM »
Mexico has 51 of its citizens in the US, who have committed crimes for which they have been sentenced to death, and they are pissed off at you?   rolleyes
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 08:58:12 AM »
Quote
Mexico has 51 of its citizens in the US, who have committed crimes for which they have been sentenced to death, and they are pissed off at you?

No kidding.

They should be embarrassed by that fact.
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Ezekiel

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 09:24:32 AM »
We will, and should, cave.  (Pissing off the world, by executing five people, ain't worth it.)

Let them do their little dance, then we kill them.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 09:34:38 AM »
One of the states executed a Canadian some years ago under much the same circumstances.

Canada said stop, World Court said stop, the state (Ohio?) said Juice 'Em.
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MechAg94

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 10:14:35 AM »
You come here and murder somebody, we are going to kill you back.  The guy really can't say he didn't know about that law.  It is not like it hasn't been in the news every year for the last 30 years.  I notice they didn't say he didn't get a fair trial or that he didn't do it.  They just want to use a technicality to put off the execution. 

On the other hand, I don't want to see the US govt and media get all in a tizzy the next time some juvenile delinquent gets caned. 
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 10:29:52 AM »
Ah, here we go. This is, I think, the one I was thinking about. No mention of the world court, thought...

From 1999:

IN THE HEADLINES: Canadian executed despite late pleas

HOUSTON - A Canadian man who survived nine dates with death in 22 years on death row in Texas was executed Thursday despite international pleas to halt the proceeding.

The man, Joseph Stanley Faulder, 61, who was sentenced to death for the 1975 murder of a wealthy elderly woman, was the first Canadian to be executed in the United States since 1952.

Canadian officials, as well as human rights groups and international legal authorities, had sought to halt the execution for several reasons, among them that Faulder was never notified of his right to contact the Canadian Consulate.

A final appeal was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court about 75 minutes before the execution.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 10:32:12 AM »
Ah, even better.

From the World Socialist Web Site...

"According to the human rights group Amnesty International, 73 foreign nationals from 24 countries currently sit on death row in the United States. Of these, only three were informed of their rights. Paraguayan citizen Angel Francisco Breard was executed in 1998 in violation of an International Court of Justice order that his death sentence be suspended. If the execution of Stanley Faulder proceeds, he will be the first Canadian executed in the US since 1952."

The World Court was involved in the 1998 case and the United States essentially said "Pound sand."



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xavier fremboe

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 10:36:44 AM »
We will, and should, cave.  (Pissing off the world, by executing five people, ain't worth it.)

Let them do their little dance, then we kill them.
By 'we', I assume you mean the Federal Government.  Yes, fed.gov will cave.

Texas?  Not so very likely.  They will probably keep their appointment to shuffle loose of the mortal coil.
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slugcatcher

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 10:58:34 AM »
The U.S. Supreme Court already ruled that the "World Court" has no authority over American law or the laws of American states. They also ruled that the POTUS can't interfere with state executions either. As Bush tried to do in one of these cases last year.

MechAg94

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 11:16:45 AM »
Considering Bush ignored a whole lot of national and international pressure to stop executions when he was governor, it surprises me that he would interfere at all.  He was still Gov. in 1999. 
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taurusowner

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 12:09:24 PM »
Leave it to another socialist Euro-bureaucracy like the World Court to rip on the US(who has done more for human rights than any nation in history) while dozens of other nations like China, Iran, and Venezuela all routinely violate human rights and kill at a whim.

De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 12:14:07 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein.  As far as I'm concerned, it's totally inappropriate to consider international law for any purpose other than justifying an invasion of someone the US wants to invade.

This idea that the World Court might think there are laws that apply for the purpose of restraining the United States is just radical socialist activism.

FWIW-In reality, I don't agree with the ruling because the U.S. provides process.  If this were a country that had no effective procedures for assessing guilt, however, I'd think they and the rest of the world would be right to exert pressures against carrying out such punishment. 

I just think it's a bit silly to hyperventilate over someone using international law to criticize a US practice, when international law has been the justification for invading whole countries on our end.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 12:17:31 PM »
Pissing off the world, by executing five people, ain't worth it.

Oh, but it is.  I'm not so sure that executing some murderers would really "piss off the world."  But even if it did, Americans should continue to demonstrate, by various means, that we won't be pushed around by silly globalist institutions. 

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Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein. 

Well, yeah.  That's because "international law" is a sham. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 12:20:14 PM »
Pissing off the world, by executing five people, ain't worth it.

Oh, but it is.  I'm not so sure that executing some murderers would really "piss off the world."  But even if it did, Americans should continue to demonstrate, by various means, that we won't be pushed around by silly globalist institutions. 

To paraphrase Machiavelli, when you're dealing with people who will never, ever love you, it is sometimes safer to be feared.

De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 12:22:03 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein. 

Well, yeah.  That's because "international law" is a sham. 

It's a sham because the major world powers ignore it, yes.  But it's actually a pretty good idea, and deeply rooted in Western civilization. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2008, 12:24:58 PM »
So long as no one mistakes it for an actual legal system. 
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2008, 12:26:57 PM »
So long as no one mistakes it for an actual legal system. 

That category would include the founding fathers and the early U.S. Congress and Courts.

It is an actual legal system-being completely unaware of how it operates or what it is doesn't mean it is fake.
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MechAg94

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2008, 12:28:51 PM »
International Law is just a series of treaties and agreements.  It only has validity if the treaty members make it so.  It certainly is nothing like law of a sovereign nation within its own borders. 
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2008, 12:30:10 PM »
International Law is just a series of treaties and agreements.  It only has validity if the treaty members make it so.  It certainly is nothing like law of a sovereign nation within its own borders. 

Well, that is one view, but that certainly was not the view of the people who founded this country, nor has it ever been the custom among nations that operate within the European legal traditions.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2008, 12:30:11 PM »
 
International Law is just a series of treaties and agreements.  It only has validity if the treaty members make it so.  It certainly is nothing like law of a sovereign nation within its own borders. 

That's kinda what I meant, yeah.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2008, 01:20:34 PM »
"Well, that is one view, but that certainly was not the view of the people who founded this country,"

Uhm...

Beg your pardon?

You are way far off base. 

The founders and framers were VERY particular about establishing a set of laws for the new United States that were independent of those found in Europe. That they were based on English Common Law isn't a surprise, these men had been, by and large, raised under the English legal system. But they created a body of law that was uniquely American, starting with the Constitution flowing down to the US code.

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