Author Topic: OK, the World Court has ruled...  (Read 20724 times)

De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2008, 01:23:29 PM »
"Well, that is one view, but that certainly was not the view of the people who founded this country,"

Uhm...

Beg your pardon?

You are way far off base. 

No, I am not-the Founding Fathers were internationalists.  They believed that there was a law of nations and of men beyond what any one sovereign created, and that governments should be bound by it.

European custom and law is cited frequently in the early judicial opinions of our country.  Some areas of law were left almost entirely to international law (like the Admiralty courts-virtually 100 percent international law at the outset of the country), and the founding fathers were careful to observe and craft international law arguments in all of their foreign policy undertakings.

Edit: Another interesting note...Congress is a word that comes from one of the major international law projects of the Europeans.  It is not a coincidence that the term was used for our legislative branch.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2008, 01:30:09 PM »
European law was cited as it was applicable to purely AMERICAN circumstances and the establishment of a body of American law. It was never intended to substitute FOR American laws. Hammurabian Law and the Torah are also frequently cited in early American court cases.

A good corelary today is attorneys arguing cases in state courts citing cases that were tried and decided in court systems in other states. The laws are similar, but not exactly the same, the legal systems are similar, but not exactly the same. That a previous legal decision is cited is not meant to establish it as the end all of the law, it's done to provide support for an attorney's argument and guidance to the judge(s) who is hearing the case.

The arguments being put forth in the early days of the United States were done so not to establish the United States as a full participant in, and subject to, the laws of other nations.

A perfect example of this is the Amistad case, in which US courts rejected the claims of Empire of Spain and ruled based on extant US law, not international law and not admiralty law.

It should also be noted that one of the attorneys arguing for the position of the slaves was former President John Quincy Adams, son of second President John Adams, whose role in crafting early US law was monumental. Neither Adams viewed themselves or the United States to be subject to European law except as agreed to by treaty.

Legal entreaties between nations, especially in the case of the United States, have always been primarily established through treaty.

And yes, the choosing of a NAME for an elected body makes it perfectly clear that the founders and framers meant and expected the United States to be fully held by the laws of other nations.

Right.

Perhaps, given that the upper house is called the Senate, that means that the US Senate is supposed to operate solely under the laws of the Roman Republic?

The term Congress was chosen because it was FAR more palatable to these men than was the term Parliament.

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Ned Hamford

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2008, 01:45:07 PM »
Is anyone else alittle suspicious at the claim of 'no one told me to talk to my consulate'?  I know if I got into trouble for any reason while abroad I would want the US gov to know pronto.... assuming of course that wouldn't get me into even more trouble...

To me it seems like the usual 'by any means neccessary' crowd going to bat against the death penalty.  Who cares the pretense, as long as our goal is furthered.

Nuts to that.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2008, 01:48:11 PM »
Most criminals aren't rocket scientists.

I guess that's really another good reason for getting them out of the gene pool.
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K Frame

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 01:50:04 PM »
"As far as I'm concerned, it's totally inappropriate to consider international law for any purpose other than justifying an invasion of someone the US wants to invade."

Holy crap, Shooting Student is finally starting to make a LITTLE sense... rolleyes
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 02:06:46 PM »
Quote
European law was cited as it was applicable to purely AMERICAN circumstances. Hammurabian Law and the Torah are also frequently cited in early American court cases.

That is not true-European law and custom was cited as the basis for which title to lands previously owned by natives became subject to the soveriegnty of the government, for example.

It was also the primary grounds for the laws governing commerce on the seas-not an insignificant part of the economy.  

Treaties were conducted within the framework of a fairly long history of European international law, not on their own as contracts without any legal framework or requirements.  Other countries could (and did) violate international law without violating a treaty, and whether the U.S. was bound by international law was a question considered separate from treaties.  This was especially true in regards to disputes with natives.

Taking another read through Amistad....you might want to see how many times they cite foreign laws  in the arguments (English especially), and the powers appropriate to "relations between nations".  I have not done a complete count, but it looks like most of the authority cited in this case is foreign, not American.

This case is actually a pretty stereotypical international law case-lots of arguments about which law applies, who gets to decide what the rights involved are, the evidentiary standards to be observed...this reads like a World Court opinion.

Using more foreign laws to explain why the U.S. action here is in accord with international law:
Quote
These questions are answered in the negative by all the most approved writers on the laws of nations. 1 Burg. Confl. 741; Story, Confl. 92. By the law of France, the slaves of their colonies, immediately on their arrival in France, become free. In the case of [40 U.S. 518, 554]   Forbes v. Cochrane, 2 Barn. & Cres. 463, this question is elaborately discussed and settled by the English court of king's bench.

A big issue here was whether or not the Amistad captives were slaves under Spanish law; since they weren't, the US wasn't required to recognize their status as slaves.

From Story's opinion, the Court ruled on Spanish law, not only US:

Quote
It is plain, beyond controversy, if we examine the evidence, that these negroes never were the lawful slaves of Ruiz or Montez, or of any other Spanish subjects. They are natives of Africa, and were kidnapped there, and were unlawfully transported to Cuba, in violation of the laws and treaties of Spain,

Amistad was a ruling on what Foreign laws and treaties required, and based on that ruling, the U.S. wasn't required to act as Spain demanded.


Edit: You can read the Amistad opinion here:  http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=40&page=518

Again, to make clear-Amistad did not reject English and Spanish law.  They affirmed it-the ruling was that because these slaves would not be property under Spanish law (due to an international treaty on abolishing the slave trade), they therefore could not be considered property under the treaty between the U.S. and Spain.

The Court is quite explicit in pointing out that if the Spanish law had been different, these folks would've been returned to Spanish jurisdiction, even though the U.S. law presumes them to be free.
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roo_ster

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2008, 06:36:01 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein.  As far as I'm concerned, it's totally inappropriate to consider international law for any purpose other than justifying an invasion of someone the US wants to invade.

This idea that the World Court might think there are laws that apply for the purpose of restraining the United States is just radical socialist activism.

FWIW-In reality, I don't agree with the ruling because the U.S. provides process.  If this were a country that had no effective procedures for assessing guilt, however, I'd think they and the rest of the world would be right to exert pressures against carrying out such punishment. 

I just think it's a bit silly to hyperventilate over someone using international law to criticize a US practice, when international law has been the justification for invading whole countries on our end.

International law was not the justification, it was just a fig leaf for weak sisters who required it.  The justification was the threat to US interests, broadly defined.

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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 06:40:27 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein. 

Well, yeah.  That's because "international law" is a sham. 

It's a sham because the major world powers ignore it, yes.  But it's actually a pretty good idea, and deeply rooted in Western civilization. 

How is it a good idea? Elaborate, please.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 07:06:47 PM »
International law was not the justification, it was just a fig leaf for weak sisters who required it.  The justification was the threat to US interests...

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. 
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 07:44:55 PM »
World Court and other international judgments are only valid when levied against an evil dictator like Saddam Hussein. 

Well, yeah.  That's because "international law" is a sham. 

It's a sham because the major world powers ignore it, yes.  But it's actually a pretty good idea, and deeply rooted in Western civilization. 

How is it a good idea? Elaborate, please.

Sure-it's a good idea because it provides some predictability and substantive restraint on actions between different nations, which helps to prevent and limit abuses by governments against their own and other citizens.  It also provides for a mechanism of settling disputes that doesn't necessitate a shooting war or costly economic contests.

There's also the benefit of being able to establish regimes for dealing with actors and activities that cross between states.  Transnational pirates yesterday, terrorists today, and for economic activity that occurs outside the jurisdiction of a state.

Instead of just threatening force whenever there's any conflict whatsoever and having the strongest state win, you've got some means to deal with those sorts of problems.
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 07:49:00 PM »
International law was not the justification, it was just a fig leaf for weak sisters who required it.  The justification was the threat to US interests...

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. 

This is an example of how things can go badly wrong when only domestic interests are attended to by a government-the property and security rights of individuals who are not constitutents of the country pursuing the interest get ignored in favor of whatever interest is asserted by the acting state.

International law principles would provide restraint, so that the interests of the Iraqis must be considered when the US acts towards...Iraq. 

Of course international law doesn't favor the desires and momentary interests of any one state, but that's true of any legal system...it's good because of the long-run stability and fairness it provides by limiting the power of any one agent's desires.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2008, 02:25:56 AM »
International law restrains none who do not voluntarily restrain themsleves.  It it pretty much worthless for any other case.

It provides no more predictability than a strongly-worded memo tossed at an angry mob.

Quote
...domestic interests are attended to by a government-the property and security rights of individuals who are not constitutents of the country pursuing the interest get ignored in favor of whatever interest is asserted by the acting state.

You write as if that is a bad thing.  The nation's government ought to place its citizens' interests first and foremost.  The COTUS was written for Americans, not Saudis and their catamites.

Quote
International law principles would provide restraint, so that the interests of the Iraqis must be considered when the US acts towards...Iraq.

Ahh, now we get to the meat of the issue.  Some folks don't like it when America acts in its own interests and would prefer that it be shackled by any means at hand.

Here is a fundamental difference in understanding.  I and many other Americans think America is a force for good in the world.  Others don't.  But, then, most of the rest of the world is ruled by vile tyrants and the USA is an impediment. 


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roo_ster

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LAK

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2008, 02:56:56 AM »
taurusowner
Quote
Leave it to another socialist Euro-bureaucracy like the World Court to rip on the US(who has done more for human rights than any nation in history) while dozens of other nations like China, Iran, and Venezuela all routinely violate human rights and kill at a whim.
And leave it to the ideological euro-socialists that have been in the driving seat in 'D.C. for the last several decades to hold our position within and funding the international criminal cartel otherwise known as "the United Nations".

If people would quit voting for these fakes we could leave their global cronies behind.

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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2008, 06:50:03 AM »
I oppose the death penalty.  I also don't recognize the authority of the World Court.  They can piss directly off, thanks very much.

Balog

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2008, 06:57:10 AM »
I oppose the death penalty.  I also don't recognize the authority of the World Court.  They can piss directly off, thanks very much.

I see this opposition to the death penalty a lot from our more libertarianish posters. What's up with that?
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2008, 07:00:19 AM »
The thought of executing an innocent person is not acceptable to me.  Executions are final.  I realize some people deserve to die for their crimes, that's not the issue.  I don't trust the government to get it right, one innocent person executed for a crime they did not commit is too many.  At least in prison you're alive, and you can still attempt to prove your innocence.  Death is forever.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2008, 07:02:47 AM »
Let's not make this thread about the death penalty, I don't want to hijack it.  I join with my Conservative brothers in telling the world court to go to hell Smiley

yesitsloaded

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2008, 07:03:35 AM »
With me it isn't so much that I'm against stringing up someone on the nearest tree if they have been caught red handed in a capital crime so much as I just think the government kills a few innocent people as well as the cost of an execution vs. life in prison. I think the average cost to execute in this country is around 20 Million dollars when it is all said and done. Government waste. If we know they did it, all it should cost other than court costs is a $5 rope or a $1 bullet. For the real evil ones (child rapists that kill and such) we could stone them or something...rocks are free. For me personally I sum it up as wasteful government spending and possibly killing an innocent. Someone breaks into my house or threatens my life or the life of another...I will deliver the death penalty quite suddenly, not much question of innocence when you invade a home at O'dark thirty.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2008, 07:04:27 AM »
yesitsloaded said it better than I did.

yesitsloaded

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2008, 07:05:49 AM »
Oh, and the World Court can pound sand.
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longeyes

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2008, 07:06:53 AM »
Interesting discussion.

The World Court can start by worrying more about illegal migration, among other things.
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Balog

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 07:07:08 AM »
Started a new thread for death penalty stuff.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=13605.0
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De Selby

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 11:44:49 AM »
International law restrains none who do not voluntarily restrain themsleves.  It it pretty much worthless for any other case.

It provides no more predictability than a strongly-worded memo tossed at an angry mob.

Yeah, but that is because the major world powers ignored it.  If they did not ignore international law, then it would provide predictability-much more so than a memo.

Quote
Here is a fundamental difference in understanding.  I and many other Americans think America is a force for good in the world.  Others don't.  But, then, most of the rest of the world is ruled by vile tyrants and the USA is an impediment. 


[Beware the perils of posting before caffeine levels in the bloodstream are at minimum operating concentration.]

I think that whenever someone who is not accountable to you is "acting for your benefit", you will get robbed, so this is a terrible idea.

It's business-you work for the boss, not for a bunch of people who don't pay your bills or have any connection to you. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Bigjake

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 01:13:51 PM »
SS,  Go read this and come back when your facts are in order.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880801484/bookstorenow18-20


And I'll join with the rest of you guys, The "World Court" can sod off.  I am subject to U.S. Law, none other.

seeker_two

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Re: OK, the World Court has ruled...
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 01:22:06 PM »
Execute the lot, cremate the bodies, and send the ashes to the World Court with a note saying, "Do you have any further suggestions for our judicial system?"..... Tongue
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