Lawyers and law students

[BridgeRunner]

So, what's your take on bar prep?

Bar-bri, and $2700 for re-recorded lectures and resulting schedule limitations, $1400 for Micro-Mash's computer-based self-study program, or other?

I'm leaning towards MicroMash.  I like working late at night, I live on my laptop (y'all probably noticed that), $1300 bucks a big chunk of change, and my school offers all sorts of supplemental bar prep stuff--lectures for the last two terms, three day essay workshop for in-state people, and a six-week supplemental course leading up to exam.

Yeah, I know this is a weird question, but I figure there's a least a half dozen or so people here who have taken or will soon take a bar exam, and I'd get less propaganda-based bs here. 

What did you do or what are you gonna or what are you thinking of doing?

[The Annoyed Man]

I did BarBri back in the day, but in my case it was a mix of live presentations and watching videotapes in a lecture hall.  It did a couple of things for me:
1.  Motivated me to review the material, since I paid for the class and had scheduled times to be there
2.  Reviewed material I eiter hadn't been eposed to or had forgotten during law school
3.  Gave me contacts with others to discuss questions, etc.

The only options in my day were BarBri and one similar tape series.  No computer classes.

If you are a good self-motivator, go for the computer class, and take advantage of what the school offers.

Two things about BarBri that I still remember.  First, in the Property section, the lecturer guaranteed that there would be no questions on riparian rights.  Actually said "You can hunt me down and shoot me if you see a water rights question in Ohio."  First question was riparian rights.  I'm still looking for him...   

Second, they posted a list of exam topics so you could study on issues not covered in the first day of essays, try to study to the test.  they got three wrong.

Good luck.

[BridgeRunner]

Two things about BarBri that I still remember.  First, in the Property section, the lecturer guaranteed that there would be no questions on riparian rights.  Actually said "You can hunt me down and shoot me if you see a water rights question in Ohio."  First question was riparian rights.  I'm still looking for him...   

I should be good--I spent last term break reading about riparian rights in preparation for an elective I'm taking now on Coastal, Ocean, and Great Lakes law. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'm not sitting for it until next July, but as this year's July exam is coming up next week, I figure it's a good time to get started. 

[El Tejon]

No Bar-Bri for me, thanks.  I'm a Chicago-Kent grad, so I saw enough of Spak and Conviser to last me a while.   I do have some great stories about Conviser and the SBA parties.

I took the Indiana Lawyers Bar Review which was a live lecture 5 nights a week on different topics.

The firm let me leave before 4PM.  I went to the law library downtown for a couple of hours, went to the lecture and then back to the library until 11PM.  Weekends I studied from 8AM to 4PM, exercised like a demon (I remember going for 3AM runs the closer to the bar exam--running at 3AM in downtown Indy, I got to know the cops), and then went over my flashcards all night.

[SteveS]

What did you do or what are you gonna or what are you thinking of doing?

I just did Bar-Bri, so I have nothing to comapre it to.  It was a mixture of some live lectures and some taped stuff that was all in the evening.  I liked the structure and the books were well put together. 

[BridgeRunner]

(I remember going for 3AM runs the closer to the bar exam--running at 3AM in downtown Indy, I got to know the cops), and then went over my flashcards all night.

One needn't wait for bar prep to do this--I'm doing it this summer just to get through classes.  Of course, this is my last term being a full-time mother while taking classes.  My last two terms are gonna be easier.  Daycare starts in September.

[De Selby]

(I remember going for 3AM runs the closer to the bar exam--running at 3AM in downtown Indy, I got to know the cops), and then went over my flashcards all night.

One needn't wait for bar prep to do this--I'm doing it this summer just to get through classes.  Of course, this is my last term being a full-time mother while taking classes.  My last two terms are gonna be easier.  Daycare starts in September.

Do Bar Bri.  It doesn't have any real competition and the prices are insane for a reason....the alternatives are either not as good, or have been bought out by Bar Bri.

[BridgeRunner]

Do Bar Bri.  It doesn't have any real competition and the prices are insane for a reason....the alternatives are either not as good, or have been bought out by Bar Bri.

This is the way I was leaning, until a meeting with the bar prep coordinator at my school this morning.

Her comments were, in short, that bar-bri is generally the superior choice, but if one prefers to stretch their active bar prep over a longer period of time and prefers working on paper rather than from lectures, that MicroMash is the way to go.  I certainly fit those criteria.  I dislike long lecture sessions of intense note-taking, and find they lead to lack of clarity.  I'm ready to start bar prep in September.  I can't imagine the stress of leaving the most substantive portion of bar prep until a lecture series a couple of months before the test. 

And so, I'm close to convinced that she's right.  They'll let me buy the program for next July starting August 1, and send me updates when they publish them in March.  I can work the MBE portion of the program two or three full times instead of once.  I can learn the state outlines, re-write them, produce flashcards from them, and be totally prepared to work on essays by the time the graded essay portion rolls around next April or May. 

And yet the hesitation.  I think just about every law student is afraid to not drop the cash on the best of the best, although a very good case was made to me this morning that the best of the best is probably not the best for me. 

Hm.

[De Selby]

And yet the hesitation.  I think just about every law student is afraid to not drop the cash on the best of the best, although a very good case was made to me this morning that the best of the best is probably not the best for me. 

I think your coordinater actually is right about not needing bar bri, and this is probably even better advice if you took all the bar subjects in school.

The advice where I went was not to bother with bar subjects, with only crim law, property, torts, con law, contracts, civ pro and professional responsibility being required.  That's what Bar-Bri was for...so you sort of need the lectures and intense note taking if you follow the "plan" by ignoring bar subjects.

[Balog]

If passing the bar exam is so incredibly difficult, how do so many frelling idiots become lawyers?

[De Selby]

If passing the bar exam is so incredibly difficult, how do so many frelling idiots become lawyers?

You only have to be marginally smarter than the people who are going to pay your fees.

[BridgeRunner]

If passing the bar exam is so incredibly difficult, how do so many frelling idiots become lawyers?

Same way they become doctors.  They're not actually stupid, they just stopped listening, learning, and paying attention in general after becoming reasonably secure in life and in their perceptions of themselves.  Then atrophy of the brain and personality set in.

[BridgeRunner]

And yeah, I've done all the bar courses.  Well, I'm breaking my head over Secured Transactions now.  But my classes are free, so I figure I'll take as many as I can get, plus I'm planning on general practice.  I've got to know it all, so I've taken all those core classes and relatively few obscure electives.  Just Gun Control, Coastal Law, and some seminars and such on ADR, really. 

[Grandpa Shooter]

Bridge,

Is this a case of primacy vs recency?  Do you retain esoteric information well over time or do you do better when it is learned or reviewed immediately prior to needing it?  My goal was to go to Law School at 35 years of age, but my wife (at the time) and I had our first child when I was 34.  I never made it back to school and have regretted it ever since.

If it were me and cost was not a factor, I would go for recency.  I would perform better on the tests if I had recently learned or reviewed the required material.  I am far better at relatively short and intense learning sessions.  That way it coalesces better in my mind.

Just my thoughts.

[BridgeRunner]

I think everyone does better with recently learned information in general, but the amount of information is intimidating.  I think that, having learned most of it once, I should relearn it for the test. Twice, if possible, and then review immediately before. 

[BridgeRunner]

weird double post, sorry

[crt360]

I did BarBri.  I studied some of my own stuff on the side, mainly for day 3, IIRC, but BarBri really covered a lot.  I remember, at the time, thinking that BarBri was a much better preparation for the bar exam than law school was, but then again, the bar exam has yet to really reflect anything I've encountered in my practice.  Has anyone ever had a situation, outside of the bar exam, where knowledge of the "multi-state" law was of any significance?  And seriously, what responsible lawyer is going to sit down and, off the top of his/her head, conclusively advise a client on some arcane oil & gas problem?

When studying for the bar exam, you really do get a sense of the limits of the human brain's capacity for retention.

[The Annoyed Man]

If passing the bar exam is so incredibly difficult, how do so many frelling idiots become lawyers?

They just test well.  Doing well on a test means nothing in relation to how one will do in real practice.

Plus, in my opinion, many lawyers who appear to be idiots are not dumb, they are making choices based upon finances, and not intelligence.  THat makes them look dumb.

[lysander]

I just finished BarBri a week ago...and will be taking the bar on Tuesday. As a consumer, I think BarBri is a garbage product. It is a wonderful example of the kind of junk created when there is no legitimate competition in the marketplace. Some of the lecturers were good, (Kaufman, despite being a bit of a weirdo does a great job condensing material) but most were awful. (Spak comes to mind)

There are plenty of reasons why BarBri has been sued numerous times....

The profession is monopolist, so why shouldn't the biggest bar review company be monopolist. 

[El Tejon]

but most were awful. (Spak comes to mind)

Hmmm, Spak must be better live.

[Perd Hapley]

12 gauge, and aim for the groin.  Oh, wait, I thought you were asking for caliber recommendations. 

[The Annoyed Man]

Bar-bri, and $2700 for re-recorded lectures and resulting schedule limitations, $1400 for Micro-Mash's computer-based self-study program, or other?

My cousin is doing both for what it's worth.

[SteveS]

I remember, at the time, thinking that BarBri was a much better preparation for the bar exam than law school was, but then again, the bar exam has yet to really reflect anything I've encountered in my practice. 

What?  You mean that you don't have people coming to your office with rule against perpetuities issues that demand an immediate response?

[crt360]

I remember, at the time, thinking that BarBri was a much better preparation for the bar exam than law school was, but then again, the bar exam has yet to really reflect anything I've encountered in my practice. 

What?  You mean that you don't have people coming to your office with rule against perpetuities issues that demand an immediate response?

   As a significant part of my practice has been real estate, estate planning and probate work, it's kind of surprising that hasn't happened.

These are a few problems that real people in the real world want an immediate answer to:

1.  Does you do free consultations?
2.  I bought a used car "as is" and now it needs a new transmission.  Under the Lemon Law, can I get my money back?
3.  My aunt-in-law died and I'm sure she willed me something, but so-and-so be saying she ain't had no will.  What can I do to find out what she left me and how much it gonna cost me?
4.  Why am I being sued?
5.  How did I get a default judgment against me without ever being served?  The time for appeal expired before I found out, what do I do now?
6.  How much is it gonna cost?
7.  My apartment/rent house has (insert problem).  Can I get out of my lease?
8.  I think the cops are harassing me.  Can I sue them?
9.  There was a dead fly in my salad at McJack-in-the-Bell.  How much can I get for it?
10. I'm kinda late on my payment (under a contract for deed) because I had a medical problem and now they're evicting me.  I've already paid them $25,000, but I just can't come up with the money right now, what can I do?
11. I thought my tax payment was included in my monthly mortgage payments, but now I'm getting a notice from the attorneys for the tax district saying I owe $5000 for the last two years and they are going to sue me if I don't pay.  What do I do?
12. When it rains, water runs down the (sidewalk, driveway, street, hillside, etc.) into my new home.  I need to have the problem fixed immediately (before it rains again).  How quickly can you sue somebody and get everything taken care of?  You can't do it any faster?  You need an advance?  Where am I going to come up with that kind of money?
13. I saw you guys do probate.  That's cool 'cause I think my probation is getting revoked.  Can you help me?
14. My girlfriend who lived with me for two years left me and took my big screen TV and a car I was letting her drive.  I reported it to the police, but they are taking her side and say if I try to get my stuff back, they are going to arrest me.  What can I do?
15. My kids say I'm too old to drive and they're going to sell my car.  How am I going to get to the store and church?  What can I do to stop them?

[BridgeRunner]

1.  Does you do free consultations?

I'm guessing that this is where "consultation" means "work a complex case from beginning to end and be fully available at my every whim for several weeks".