Critical Mass in Seattle: cars vs. bicycles

[K Frame]

"As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines."

And, as a motorist in DC metro, I can vouch for the fact that many, if not most, bicyclists are idiots who somehow have developed enhanced senses of invincibility while riding their two-wheeled organ donormobiles amongst the 2-ton metal machines of death.

In the last 5 years I can't even begin to tell you how many totally moronic moves I've seen bicyclists. Running red lights, swerving in and out of cars as if they're a motorcycle, losing ALL concept of where they are and ramming a car that is stopped in traffic... I've seen some doozies.

My absolute favorite happened a couple of years ago.

Cars in the right-hand turn lane and getting the arrow to turn right. I was 4 cars back and had a perfect view of the entire situation.

Bicyclist FLYING up the outside of the right hand turn lane but looking to the LEFT to see if any cars are coming across because he's going straight through the intersection.

He rammed right into the side of the car that was LEGALLY turning right.

Why he wasn't seriously injured is completely beyond me, but he wasn't. Bloody and road rashed, but not dead or crippled. But he was unbelievably furious and indignant. His tune changed some when the witnesses, me included, told the cop exactly what we saw. Result was the bicyclist getting a series of citations, the driver nothing.

I have no problem in sharing the road with bicyclists. I'm more than happy to do so. But they need to remember -- the primary use of the road is for powered traffic.

[Sawdust]

I have no problem in sharing the road with bicyclists. I'm more than happy to do so. But they need to remember -- the primary use of the road is for powered traffic.

Uh-oh...better get yer flame suit on.

Shatstorm incoming from the cyclists in 3, 2, 1...

Sawdust

[K Frame]

They can scream and bitch and cry and moan about that concept all they want.

If streets and roadways weren't primarily intended for the use of powered vehicles, they wouldn't be dimensioned so as to accommodate powered vehicles, they wouldn't be built to withstand the pounding of powered vehicles, and the primary source of revenue for their maintenance and construction wouldn't come from taxes on the gasoline used to feed powered vehicles.

The massive network of paved roads in the United States exists because of the rise of the automobile, not because the legions of bicyclists were getting their ankles dirty on their daily commute.

[Regolith]

Most people do not realize that the car they drive has enormus potential as a weapon, they have no problem with menacing and threatening bikers.
Here on armed polite know better but we are in the slim minority.

See, this is something that has been annoying me every time these threads come up.  Some biker decides to generalize and say almost every person who drives a car is a maniac who enjoys menacing bikers just because.

It simply ain't true. 

First, I don't do it, and neither does anyone else I know.  Now, the law of averages being what it is, as well as pure statistical chance would dictate that if MOST people who drove a car liked to menace bikers, then I'd at least know one person who does.  I don't.  Every person I know gives bikers a wide berth. The law of statistics would also dictate that I'd have seen at least one incident of a person menacing a biker.  I haven't.  Except on YouTube, and that stupid prick got what was coming to him.

Being a driver myself, this annoys the living crap out of me because not only are you stereotyping to a very wide degree, but you are (purposely or not) including me within that stereotype.  Unacceptable.

Not only that, but you're also saying that everyone who comes close to (or does) cause an accident with a biker was doing it on purpose.  No doubt there are a few who do, but it is far more likely that the vast majority were caused by inattention either by the biker or the driver, rather than malice.

So yeah, I'd kindly ask that this type of stereotyping be dropped, because it isn't accurate, and it isn't conducive to the conversation.  It'd be the equivalent of a car driver saying to you that EVERY biker was like the guys in the original article.

He didn't say all drivers behave that way.  He didn't say that you drive that way.  So lay off.

He said that most drivers behave that way.  He's absolutely correct.  As a cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that far, far too many drives don't fully respect the dangers posed by their 2 ton steel killing machines.

Horse puckey.  If most motorists acted that way, the biker would be extinct.  Again, you're generalizing to suit your particular prejudices.

And yes, its just as offensive to me as if he had said ALL motorists, just as it would be offensive if you said MOST blacks are criminals, or MOST jews are greedy bastards involved in worldwide conspiracies, or MOST gunnies are redneck hicks who who chew tobacco and brew moonshine and are a danger to society.  Generalization is not only a logical fallacy, it's sloppy thinking.

[K Frame]

"If most motorists acted that way, the biker would be extinct."

I hesitate to do this, but quoted for an amazing amount of truth.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Far more cyclists have been hit by stupid motorists than you'd imagine.  I've been hit.  Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't.  And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road.  It isn't.

Most motorcyclists I've spoken to have had run-ins with incompetent, self-centered motorists, too.  Likewise for most average car and truck drivers.  There is nothing special or unique about bicyclists in this regard.

Many drivers simply do not comprehend that the world doesn't revolve around them, that their cars and trucks aren't the only vehicles on public roads.  They behave as thought the public roads are their own personal "get out of my way or I'll injure you and then blame it on you" playgrounds.  They do not grok that it is their responsibility to operate their vehicles in a manner safe for all other users of the roads.

Gunsmith is right.  Operating a motor vehicle is a serious responsibility which most drivers don't fully respect.  You may not like that fact, but it's true nonetheless.

[Sergeant Bob]

"If most motorists acted that way, the biker would be extinct."

I hesitate to do this, but quoted for an amazing amount of truth.

+1!!!!!

[BridgeRunner]

Far more cyclists have been hit by stupid motorists than you'd imagine.  I've been hit.  Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't.  And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road.  It isn't.

By way of analogy:

Far more women have been abused by men than you imagine.  Most of the women I know have either been raped or sexually abused by brutal men.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't. 

Therefore, men are brutal, vicious uncaring jerks?

Sorry, does not compute.  Every driver I know has also had encounters with terribly rude, reckless, dangerous drivers.  I imagine the average serious cyclist shares the road with somewhere between dozens and hundreds of cars on  daily to weekly basis.  You're gonna run into one or two asshats per every hundred to every thousand or so, depending on demographics and geography.  This is hardly an indictment of drivers.  Of cyclists. 

It pretty much a description of life. 

[Tallpine]

My observation is that most two-wheelers seem to lack the self-preservation gene. 

I used to ride a bicycle a lot back in Colorado.  I stayed on the bike trails where they were available, on the less travelled roads when possible, and way the heck over on busy roads.  I somehow fail to understand how the threat of a few tiny pebbles off on the shoulder of the hiway compare with the threat of fast moving vehicles weighing anywhere between 2 and 40 tons ?

And for murdercyclists: don't give me that "cage drivers don't watch" BS.  Maybe you ought not to be weaving through traffic and passing on the right.  I almost killed a guy out on the interstate many years ago.  I had passed another car, and was in the process of changing lanes back to the right when I spotted about 2" of the top of a helmet in my right window. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Far more cyclists have been hit by stupid motorists than you'd imagine.  I've been hit.  Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't.  And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road.  It isn't.

By way of analogy:

Far more women have been abused by men than you imagine.  Most of the women I know have either been raped or sexually abused by brutal men.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't. 

Therefore, men are brutal, vicious uncaring jerks?

Sorry, does not compute.  Every driver I know has also had encounters with terribly rude, reckless, dangerous drivers.  I imagine the average serious cyclist shares the road with somewhere between dozens and hundreds of cars on  daily to weekly basis.  You're gonna run into one or two asshats per every hundred to every thousand or so, depending on demographics and geography.  This is hardly an indictment of drivers.  Of cyclists. 

It pretty much a description of life. 

I suppose rape and sexual abuse isn't particularly uncommon, either.  I don't pretend that it is.  But do most men perpetrate such?  In my experience, no, not by a long shot.  I could be wrong though, since I'm not a woman and thus not a target for such behavior.  I realize that people who not on the receiving end of any given behavior tend not to notice how or how common the behavior might be.

You're right, though.  It's a proportional thing.  Back when I first started cycling, I did my best to hug the right hand edge of the pavement, staying as far out of the lane of traffic as I could.  My thinking was that I should give the motorists as wide a berth as possible.  Back then, fully 3 out of 4 drivers passed me dangerously.  That, by any definition, satisfies the statement "most drivers don't fully respect the danger of their vehicles".

I've since learned to ride more assertively.  If I'm clearly inside the lane of traffic, most motorists realize that they can't squeeze past me without changing lanes.  Now it's only 1 in 4 who drive dangerously.  Most still fail to respect the danger they pose, and are driving safer only because that's the only realistic choice I've left them short of rear-ending me. 

Gunsmith is right.  Most drivers don't fully respect the killing potential inherent in their vehicles.  If you deign to use the public roads on a bicycle, you will surely experience the same thing.  Most drivers treat the roads as their own personal playgrounds, without regard for all of the other users of the road.

[K Frame]

"Most of the cyclists I know have either been hit or been run off the road by reckless drivers.  So don't pretend that it's rare or uncommon.  It isn't.  And don't pretend that whenever it happens, it's automatically the cyclists fault for being on a public road."

Wow.

Where did anyone:

1. Claim that it's a rare or uncommon occurrence?

2. Claim that it's automatically the cyclist's fault?

No one has claimed that, so stop purling and whining and acting as if someone has.

There's blame that goes to both sides.

Not all motorists are bloodthirsty bastards whose only goal of the day is to see how many pansy ecoweenie bicyclists they can grind into a thin red slurry beneath the wheels of their souped up 900 horse power 12-cylinder deathmobile, just as not all cyclists are long-haired hippy ecoweenies whose only goal is to travel in a pack, box in a car, and film themselves slashing its tires.

If I were truly like that I could probably add 5 bicycle stickers to my car door every day.


Part of the reason as to why there are so many incidents of cyclists being hit is very likely one of relative volume. Every day on my commute about town I see maybe 5 bicyclists who are traveling in the lanes. Conversely, every day I see better than one THOUSAND autos and trucks. Like it or not, cars and trucks outnumber bikes by a hefty margin, and it's that kind of situation, one where a driver might not have a lot of experience with a cyclist being on the road in their proximity (or conversely a bicyclist who's either new to riding in traffic or who has gotten complacent) that leads to problems.

[mtnbkr]

All drivers are idiots.

Or is it all cyclists are idiots?

I can't remember. 

Since this thread isn't helping me determine which, I'm going to close it.

Chris