theological philosophy

[280plus]

I guess what I mean to say is that if I were to worship any "God" it would be a God that would not take any form of retribution on me for questioning His (Her) existence and role in things. Who would not deem me vile and corrupt by nature. I mean, if that's true, God created a vile corrupt being in his image? Why? What was the purpose? If we, as God's creations, are imperfect, doesn't that imply that God is imperfect? If He is perfect he would have created a "perfect" being, no? The problem I have is having read countless descriptions of ancient religious beliefs (myths and legends) that there are too many parallels between all those things we call religion. To me it appears that religion itself has evolved over time into what we have today. Everybody throughout time has had a God or Gods to pay homage to and to explain the unexplainable. In most instances it appears that religion was used or developed to keep man "in line".  If you do bad things in life the malevolent spirits will cause you eternal misery. If you do good things the benevolent spirits will take you to paradise.

Here's a book I would recommend to YOU, if you can find a copy:

"I, the Aboriginal" Douglas Lockwood C. 1962 Rigby Limited, James Place, Adelaide, Australia

Here is an excerpt from the cover:

My name is Waipuldanya, or Wadjiri-Wadjiri. (If they twist your tongue too much you may call me Phillip Roberts. That is my white-feller name.)
   I am a full blooded aboriginal of the Alawa tribe at Roper River in the Northern Territory.
   My body has been through the fires of tribal initiation. I have been subjected to many taboos. As a child I was "sung" to death by a malevolent Doctor Blackfellow, a Medicine Man who wished to destroy me in order to punish my clan. I was saved by another.
I have worshipped Kunapipi, the Earth Mother, in our pagan ceremonies. I believe in the Rainbow Serpent. I have also worshipped and believed in the Lord God, and been confused by this conflict in religions.

I'm not asking you to leave your beliefs or even questioning them. I'm asking you to accept that there are more than 2 or 3 ways to think or feel about all this.

The book itself is a fascinating read. I have read 50+ books on the Australian aborigine himself or how he fit into the scheme of Australia throughout its recorded history. MY interest is in the psychology of the stone age mind and is what led me to read all this. I feel by understanding the mind of the last stone age people on earth it can lead to insights on the minds of those who passed on eons ago and hence the mind of today. The religious stuff I basically stumbled onto. Meaning, I'm not reading this material in an effort to understand God, but I DO believe the reading HAS led me to a better understanding of the concept.

So, is God leading me down the path to righteousness through mysterious ways, or is Satan leading me down the path to eternal destruction?

[roo_ster]

Interesting thread.  Nice to see folks writing in a polite manner.

REAL vs TRUE
There is a goodly segment of Christianity that believes all those other pagan gods written about in the Bible and elsewhere were/are real.  They are real in that they are manifestations of Satan, demons, sent to deceive men and divert them from what is true.  They had/have power and influence and can provide real results, just like the Big Man upstairs.

They are not true in that they deal in lies & deceit.  They lead those who truck with them away from the truth.  That is their purpose.  In many cases they try to convince their adherents to commit acts that will further separate them from the truth: ritual murder, prostitution, veneration ceremonies, other transgressive acts, etc.  The more serious or heinous an act the demon/god can get an adherent to execute, the more comitted the adherent believes himself to be to that demon/god and the more separated from the truth.

[280plus]

So that's one vote for Satan...BWAHAHAHAAAA!! (sinister Satanic laugh)


IIRC most of the names of places in the US that contain the word "Devil" or "Satan" were places that pagan ritual was taking place when European settlers arrived. Again IIRC this was done either to designate the place as "unclean" and / or used by them in efforts to convert the natives to Christianity. In other words in CT we have "Devil's Hopyard" and it is widely accepted that this area was a place that was somehow Holy in the eyes of the long lost pagan natives. I have no proof of this at hand, I'd have to look around. So we see an area that was once designated as a holy spot termed evil and unclean as time marched on. Don't get me started on time again.

To Phillip Roberts (easier to type) those Demons ARE real and SO IS JESUS! He accepts them all, but at the cost of great inner conflict. He asks the question in there somewhere, "How can some man come in here and tell me that MY beliefs are all wrong and evil and his are the right and good ones?" ( not quite in those words). His pagan beliefs were from infancy, his Christian IIRC not till mid to late teens. How does one propose to resolve this conflict? He is a Holy Man in his pagan world and a Deacon of the church in the Christian world.

Where will his spirit go when he passes on?

Yes, I'm proud to see not a wisp of smoke coming from this thread.

Very cool! (literally AND figuratively)

[BrokenPaw]

I think the posts by Hunter Rose and BrokenPaw illlustrate well that the "all-roads-lead-to-God" way of thinking (is there a word for that? ultraecumenical?) is one that fails to show any respect for the religions involved. First, one has to throw out half of each religion so that the remaining halves fit together.  What you are left with is a shifting, patchwork moral code.

Either I have not spoken well, or you have mistaken my meaning, fistful.  
I am not saying that Divinity is a crippled mishmash that contains a few bits of Christianity and a few bits of Zen Buddhism and a few bits of Islam and a few bits of Santeria.

Instead what I am saying is that all of those systems are complete in and of themselves, and they may well be equally-valid ways for people to see the Divine.  A circle may be a perfect circle, but it lacks nothing for that it is not a square.  Likewise, a square may have perfectly straight edges and precise corners, and be perfect in its form, but it will never be a circle, and that's all right.  That they are not the same does not mean that each of them, in their own way, cannot be an example of balance and mathematical perfection.

Likewise I believe that it's possible for all of Christanity to be true, for if it were not, what would be the point in following the Christ?  But at the same time, I believe that it is possible for all of what I believe to be true, else why would I bother?  The two faiths are not in conflict, unless we, the humans who fail to grasp the fullness of Divinity, choose to find them in conflict.

This is not to say that I find all faiths to be valid.  There are some that I just can't wrap my mind around.  For instance, Scientology.  That doesn't mean that it's wrong, it means that, having examined it, I can't find anything in it that makes sense to me.  I could be wrong.  Certainly it's not my place to tell the people who follow it that they're fools or anything of the sort.  As Grampster said, if all roads eventually lead to Jesus, then if a particular belief is a fool's faith, those who are not truly fools will eventually leave it and find one better.

Grampster has said that he believes all paths eventually lead to Jesus.  He and I are not that far apart in that, except that I believe that all roads eventually lead to the Divine, and Jesus is one of those roads.  I walked with Him for several years, and I did not find Him lacking, but rather I found that he was a perfect circle, and the hole in my spirit was not circular; it was shaped like a five-pointed star.

Namaste,
-BP

[280plus]

In 1957 L. Ron Hubbard made a statement that if you really wanted to make a lot of $ you needed to start a religion. A year later Scientology was born. Without going into detail, there is a bit of mind manipulating going on. Not unlike hypnotism. The part that gets me is it's usually the exceptionately intelligent ones that get caught up in it. They seem to get very militant (for lack of a better word) or maybe it's "aggressively defensive" when you question them on it. Or at least the ones I've come in contact with. Nope, definitely not the way for me.

Can anyone tell me today's total cost of reaching "Clear"? It's been a while since I've heard.

[Paddy]

It is not in conflict to know that both Satan and Jesus Christ are real; you can't have one without the other.   Some consider this 'dualism' limited; even a construct of man; and attempt to rise above it.  That notion drove me for a number of years.  Unfortunately faith does not submit to logic; we are finite beings attempting to comprehend the infinite-it's not possible.  Faith is not an intellectual exercise, if it were, it wouldn't be called 'faith'.  To acquire faith, it is necessary to commit acts of faith, that's all there is to it.  My faith in turn provides me with the absolute knowledge that Jesus is Lord, God is in control, Satan is defeated, and all is well in the here and the hereafter.  Fear is no longer the driving force of my life, and has not been for many years.

ALL of the world's religions have at one time or another been hijacked and perverted.  Man's nature is perverse and self-serving. Look for example at societies constructed around the non-existence of a supreme being. Have they all not descended into the worst totalitarian nightmares imagineable?  Without a higher authority to which all are answerable, man hits a dead end every time.

[Perd Hapley]

I think it's arrogant to think you have it all figured out and can tell others that their beliefs are wrong.

But in making that statement, are you not saying that certain other people's beliefs are wrong?  Your statement contradicts itself.

[grampster]

Fistful,

     I think we all do that, mostly unwittingly, I think.  Swmbo always tells me when I object to someone elses conclusion, that all I'm doing is duplicating what i'm accusing the other guy of.  I, of course, tell her there is a difference...I'm right and he's wrong. heh.  Life is full of contradictions.  That's why we have lawyers and insurance people.

What jabbering on the boards has shown me is that even though there is a lot of similarity in thought (as much as disparateness) none of us ever really totally agrees on anything.  No wonder the world is chaotic.  It's a wonder that we get along as well as we do.  America is a never ending wonder to me in that regard.

I use Christmas eve at the mall as an example.  Sit in the middle of the mall and watch the people go by.  Virtually every critter known to man, as wide a gap as you can imagine, will walk by.  Anyplace else on earth this might not happen as peacefully as it does in America.  Even tho we come from all walks, if you were to smile and nod, you'll get back the same.  We may all disagree, more or less, but we all still get along.

That says more about us than any gibberish a Left Wing Progressive can dream about.

Sorry for the thread drift, I'll shut up now.

[griz]

But in making that statement, are you not saying that certain other people's beliefs are wrong?  Your statement contradicts itself.

Good point, and to some extent I think you caught me. The differnce as I see it (and please correct me if I am making mistakes here, especially in logic) is that I believe it is too complex for any man to understand fully. Kind of the same way a sceintist can state as fact "life began X-billion years ago from the impact of a meteor with this particular element into a soup with this exact composition". Another sceintist may believe that it started 2-X billion years ago with a lightning strike. He could not say the other was wrong, but he could say there is no way for the other to know that his therory was a fact. That's  why I called it arrogant, but I will apologize if it was too strong a word.

In the same, way saying another's religion is wrong without being able to prove it is wrong to a reasonable observer, also strikes me as presumptuous. Obviously there is some gray area here, and I would be interested in hearing other views.

[Guest]

I would love to believe in God- after watching my children die it does not seem possible anymore.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm sorry, tokugawa.  What happened?

[Guest]

It was a long time ago and it still hurts. that is all I can say. Thank you.

[Perd Hapley]

griz,

I don't know why it is arrogant or presumptuous in religion, but not in other fields.  When we don't agree with gun control, we say it's wrong.  No one accuses us of arrogance or presumption (though they might accuse of a lot of other things).  No one says, "That's intolerant.  All public policy is valid."  I understand that more mundane things like gun control give us more to test in the physical world, but religions still make truth claims that can be tested.  In both fields, it comes down to who you believe, and who's reasoning you will accept.  After that comes faith that sustains your beliefs, even when your position is challenged, whether by seemingly valid arguments or by difficult experience.

[Perd Hapley]

I guess what I mean to say is that if I were to worship any "God" it would be a God that would not take any form of retribution on me for questioning His (Her) existence and role in things. Who would not deem me vile and corrupt by nature. I mean, if that's true, God created a vile corrupt being in his image? Why? What was the purpose? If we, as God's creations, are imperfect, doesn't that imply that God is imperfect? If He is perfect he would have created a "perfect" being, no?

Well, let me give you the Christian answer to that question, or at least my best interpretation of it.  

Retribution:  God's retribution is the result of our own choice.  That is, Hell is a seperation from God, which is precisely what sinful people choose and desire.  God seeks to bring us to faith, and gives us much reason to believe.  If, however, in the end we choose not to believe, it is because of a sinful refusal to submit to God, and to trust Him.  If one does not wish to acknowledge God, or to love Him, that choice will be honored, and the sinner set apart from God's presence.  Unfortunately, that is a horrible situation, but many people are determined to have it.  If you do not believe this, consider the horrible things so many to do themselves and others, and the messes so many make of their lives.  Hell will be simply a magnification of the evil wrought by sinful people on Earth.  The point is, God honors human free will, and will force no one to love Him or stay with Him.  

Vile and corrupt natures:  As God is the author of good, and is perfectly holy, the only reason to reject Him is so that we might pursue our own vile and corrupt desires.  But God will forgive these desires, and has paid the penalty these incur, through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ, God in flesh, crucified for us.  We have only to accept this.  If not, we go on in or own way, which only brings us to Hell.

Imperfect beings:  When God created the first man and first woman, they knew no sin.  The whole creation was perfectly healthy, clean and beautiful.  A part of the perfection of man was his ability to think, to feel, to love, etc.  But, again, God respects the choice of others whether to love Him or hate Him.  The first people disobeyed God, just as you and I would have, and followed their own reasoning instead.  This is the famous Apple Incident.  So, they brought death and curses upon themselves and the whole world.  See my comments on Hell, above.  This explains the imperfection of man.

[Perd Hapley]

I have had a similar interest in the stone age mind.  I spent about three weeks at the Boulder Outdoor Survival Institute, learning how to do things the old-fashioned way.  It can be a fascinating insight into that way of thinking, or at least that way of living.

The problem I have is having read countless descriptions of ancient religious beliefs (myths and legends) that there are too many parallels between all those things we call religion. To me it appears that religion itself has evolved over time into what we have today.

There are as many differences as parallels, at least.  How do you think religion has evolved?

In most instances it appears that religion was used or developed to keep man "in line".

Well, belief in God does tend to make you think twice about your actions.  "Used or developed" by God, or by men?

So, is God leading me down the path to righteousness through mysterious ways, or is Satan leading me down the path to eternal destruction?

The better question might be, where are you leading yourself?  What do you believe, and is it right?

[griz]

When we don't agree with gun control, we say it's wrong.  No one accuses us of arrogance or presumption

But the gun control proponent is advancing his opinion, and does not state it as a known fact. If he said for instance, "griz will unquestionably be killed by gunfire if he owns a gun", even other gun control fans would realize he can not know that the statement is valid. (unless of course he plans to kill me)

So let me try a question for you.

As God is the author of good, and is perfectly holy, the only reason to reject Him is so that we might pursue our own vile and corrupt desires.

Does the fact that He is also the author of bad negate those desires?

[Perd Hapley]

griz,

Are you stating your opinions, or known facts?  You are completely wrong with your comments on the gun control debate, but I am not sure where to start.  (Am I being presumptuos again?)  On both sides of the issue, we certainly believe that our opinion is the correct one.  That is, we believe that our opinion is the truth.  Therefore, we certainly do state as a fact that gun control will or will not reduce crime rates.  We do it all the time.  Why shouldn't we?  Think you can prove that gun control is bad?  Well, you can to some people, but some will never be convinced.  This is very similar to saying "Islam is a false religion."  I can't strictly prove it, but I can certainly give any number of reasons why I think it is so; reasons that might convince a "reasonable observer".  

Let's back up a little bit, though.

In the same, way saying another's religion is wrong without being able to prove it is wrong to a reasonable observer, also strikes me as presumptuous.

As I said earlier, this is not the case.  How many of us have counted the votes in Florida, from 2000?  Very few.  Yet if we really care about it, we have probably looked to one or more sources to tell us who won.  Have we proven it?  No, but we can't prove everything we believe in.  We cannot even prove which pistol cartridge is the best for self-defense.  Yet, if your neighbor were buying a gun, and asked both of us which was the best, we would certainly make some recommendation.  If I say .357 Magnum, and you don't agree with me, can I blame you for saying I am wrong?  There are lives at stake.  At some point, you have to decide what you're going to believe.  One cannot even act, as a conscious human being, without having some set of beliefs to act from.  

Further, I don't buy the idea that it is intrinsically mean or evil to say that a person's religious views are wrong.  Again, I have to go back to gun control.  Don't we rejoice when we convert one to our side?  Don't we feel much better for them?  It is the same with religion.  In fact, what Christians believe is called the Gospel, the Good News.  Which is this:  

You don't have to earn God's forgiveness, He gives it freely.  Christ payed for every bad thing you've done.  You don't have to sin, you can be freed from it.

I guess some of us just treat religion like a game to play, and some find it very important.

Does the fact that He is also the author of bad negate those desires?

1. What do you mean about negating desires?

2. Christians do not believe that God creates evil, even if He uses it for His purposes.  He created beings capable of love, but that means we are also capable of hatred.

[Strings]

ummm... fistful? If we go with the assumption that God created everything, then he also created evil...

[Perd Hapley]

Only in the same way that God created Chevrolets or the music of Buddy Holly.  Only in the same way that Einstein's father is responsible for the theory of special relativity.  God created the potential for people to do evil, but we do evil on our own.

Why would God create that which by its very nature hates and opposes Him?

One thing I have failed to bring up in this discussion is the bright side of Hell.  Hell, the wrath of God; these are wonderful (if terrible) things.  Praise God that every wrong done to us will be paid back in full; Hitler made to suffer all the tortures and horror he imposed.  Child molesters will know dread fear and humiliation, and for all eternity.  Yet this is sometimes called God's "alien work."  God specializes in love and forgiveness.  For He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should have eternal life.  That's a Bible verse, or a rough paraphrase thereof.  Which is why the Son of God took on all of that punishment, so that our sins could be paid for, but yet forgiven.

My, my, after all that preachin', I think it's time to pass around the collection plate.


Oh, yeah, I'm still wondering about that Koran stuff that I asked about earlier.

[Perd Hapley]

Likewise I believe that it's possible for all of Christianity to be true, for if it were not, what would be the point in following the Christ?  But at the same time, I believe that it is possible for all of what I believe to be true, else why would I bother?  The two faiths are not in conflict, unless we, the humans who fail to grasp the fullness of Divinity, choose to find them in conflict.

I am trying to understand how this can be.  I don't think I am looking for ways to find how Christianity conflicts with other religions, when the New Testament explicitly curses any who preach a "different gospel."  Nor when the Old Testament spends so much time telling us that God will not tolerate the worship of any other gods.  There is no room in Christianity for other religions to be valid.  In fact, there is no room for them to be useful.  According to the Christian scriptures, all other faiths are opposed to the Divine, leading away from Him.  

I guess if you think of religion as a way of thinking and behaving that gives you peace, or makes you a better person, this is not really a conflict.  But if you actually believe in the truth-claims of your religion (no matter what it is) then you can certainly not believe any other could be true.  Nor could you believe that another religion is a valid way to think of the Divinity, when the two religions are fundamentally contradictory.  Christians certainly cannot accept anything which contradicts Scripture, as we believe it was written by God.  

If you would be so kind, please consider me a benighted fundamentalist in need of enlightenment and explain this to me.

[Strings]

>Only in the same way that God created Chevrolets or the music of Buddy Holly.  Only in the same way that Einstein's father is responsible for the theory of special relativity.  God created the potential for people to do evil, but we do evil on our own.

Why would God create that which by its very nature hates and opposes Him?<

Umm... fistful? If He created EVERYTHING, then He created evil itself. I mean created the very concept. Ya can't have it both ways (although you're welcome to try explaining how he DIDN'T create it)...

 Oh... on this one:

>Nor when the Old Testament spends so much time telling us that God will not tolerate the worship of any other gods.<

 Let me see... "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", right?

 A rule given to the Hebrews: it's an injunction against apostacy. Since I'm not Hebrew, it has no bearing in my mind. Now, if you want to find something similar handed to the English, Italian, or Apache, I'd be happy to listen...

[280plus]

My, my, after all that preachin', I think it's time to pass around the collection plate.

DOH! Time to RUN!!  J/K,,,JJJJJ/K...



So That's Satan 2 - God 0  



I believe I'm headed down the path that either God or Fate has chosen for me. I feel either of those two are responsible for every little thing that takes place in my life. I just haven't decided which one it is exactly. Obviously you have. I envy you.
I feel, even if you DO worship a big blue turtle, as long as you're working against evil you're OK with me.

[Perd Hapley]

Well, fine, He created everything that is not intrinsically evil.  Is that better?  

God being holy, it is no more possible for God to create evil than to make a boulder so heavy He cannot move it.

Let me see... "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", right?

 A rule given to the Hebrews: it's an injunction against apostacy. Since I'm not Hebrew, it has no bearing in my mind. Now, if you want to find something similar handed to the English, Italian, or Apache, I'd be happy to listen...

So, every ethnicity is supposed to have their own rules?  Okay.  Just so you understand, Christians consider this a rule that God intended for all mankind.  If you say that all religions are valid, you're going to have to accept that as valid, also.

[Strings]

>Well, fine, He created everything that is not intrinsically evil.  Is that better? <

Nope. I'd have to double check, but do believe the book says he created EVERYTHING. If your claim is that he DIDN'T create the concept of evil, then you need to explain where it came from...

[Stand_watie]

ummm... fistful? If we go with the assumption that God created everything, then he also created evil...

That is a wrong assumption. God did not create everything, he created everything that was created.

God did not create himself, he has always existed, and evil has always existed. Evil is everything that does not conform to the attributes of God, and for God to have attributes, there have to be things outside of those attributes.

I don't think it's a concept the human mind can get around.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
    3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it


John 8

  54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

    57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

    58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.