Author Topic: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!  (Read 9742 times)

Manedwolf

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Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« on: August 20, 2008, 05:50:48 AM »
Oh, yay. Is this going to set a precedent? "Cooperation is not mandatory, buuuuuut...." is what it sounds like. Blah.

Quote
Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.

"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI.

That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.

Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.

About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.

The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to
a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.

Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners.

The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.

"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."

Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.

"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.

On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners."

That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.

Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that.

According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.

He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons  as the OSBI did.

Harris said gun dealers  "federal firearms licensees"  have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.

They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon.

Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement.

If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.

Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used.

Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080820_12_A1_hOSBIa443762

41magsnub

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 05:52:59 AM »
How is this any different from mass DNA tests of all males to find a rape subject that the ACLU would be all up in arms over?  I think this has actually happened but I can't remember enough detail to find a link.

And..  why would somebody comply with this?  I'm all for helping law enforcement when I can, but this is too much.  I'd be one of the ones that would not comply because the whole thing would piss me off too much and they would have to get a warrant along with the associated headache to test mine.

K Frame

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 05:54:46 AM »
"or they eventually may want to help."

Huh?


And no, it's not going to set a precedent. This has been done many many times before.

Revieweing 4473s was one of the ways that the FBI narrowed in on Mir Amal Kasi for the shootings outside the CIA headquarters in the early 1990s.
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41magsnub

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 05:56:49 AM »
"or they eventually may want to help."

Huh?

After the "process of elimination" is down to the folks that did not comply and they are getting hounded day and night they may finally "want to help".  Of course, they may "want to help" because there is a warrant to test their gun and don't want to go to jail.

K Frame

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 05:57:37 AM »
Yeah. That's sort of how I read that, as well.
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Ex-MA Hole

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 06:07:53 AM »
I'm torn on this one...I'm sure one of you will sway me!

On one hand, it makes perfect sense....if POTENTIALLY one of my guns was used in a crime, I don't know that I'd have an issue with them checking it out. 

That said, they'd need to ask nicely.

However, my refusing to help sounds like it may incriminate me because "if I have something to hide, I must be guilty"....I need to think and hear more before I decide one way or the other.
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Balog

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 06:09:59 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 4473's legally supposed to be destroyed pretty soon after the purchase is complete? And isn't a warrant supposed to be needed before the cops go through them?
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wmenorr67

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 06:10:21 AM »
It is interesting that they were targeting Glocks.  This happened not far from where I live and have tried to keep up with it the best I can considering where I am right now.  But I don't remember anything being said that the weapon in question was for sure a Glock.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 06:11:31 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 4473's legally supposed to be destroyed pretty soon after the purchase is complete? And isn't a warrant supposed to be needed before the cops go through them?

The FFL keeps the 4473, and it goes to ATF if it shuts down. What is destroyed is on ATF's end, the record of the transaction if it's given a Proceed. AFAIK.

What I am expecting here is that lazy ATF goons will keep their new toy of a database, and re-use it to harass these same gun owners the next time there's an unsolved crime with the same caliber in the area. And the next time. And the next time.

Balog

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 06:11:56 AM »
It is interesting that they were targeting Glocks.  This happened not far from where I live and have tried to keep up with it the best I can considering where I am right now.  But I don't remember anything being said that the weapon in question was for sure a Glock.

Very distinctive rifling pattern, those Glocks have. May not have released the type of gun initially, but if it was a Glock they'd know.
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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 06:14:31 AM »
I'm torn on this one...I'm sure one of you will sway me!

On one hand, it makes perfect sense....if POTENTIALLY one of my guns was used in a crime, I don't know that I'd have an issue with them checking it out. 

That said, they'd need to ask nicely.

However, my refusing to help sounds like it may incriminate me because "if I have something to hide, I must be guilty"....I need to think and hear more before I decide one way or the other.

To me, checking it out is "are you still in possesion of your gun?"  If I answer yes, they can pound sand.  If I answer no, then they may want to chase down a lead to find out who I sold it to.  Some scruffy guy in a parking lot.... might piss 'em off nicely  angel
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Leatherneck

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 06:15:15 AM »
This does raise interesting questions regarding 5th Amendment and Miranda warnings.

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K Frame

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 06:31:03 AM »
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 4473's legally supposed to be destroyed pretty soon after the purchase is complete?"

No.

For all intents and purposes, they are maintained indefinitely and have always been, by law, open to law enforcement for review.
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French G.

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 06:44:36 AM »
My wife's former boyfriend got a personal visit after someone got shot with a Makarov that had the .380 conversion barrel some outfit was selling. Apparently ballistics identified the rifling pattern as that barrel so the feds took the manufacturer's sales list and checked everyone out.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 07:04:10 AM »
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 4473's legally supposed to be destroyed pretty soon after the purchase is complete?"

No.

For all intents and purposes, they are maintained indefinitely and have always been, by law, open to law enforcement for review.
I remember hearing somewhere that a FFL could destroy 4473's that were more than 20 years old.  That could be intarwebz rumor though.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 07:26:19 AM »
A glock firing pin leaves a distinctive impression on a primer. That being said, I'm sure the killer wasn't gonna show up for that test with a gun he/she used to commit the crime. If they did then they would be the recipient of a "dumb ass award"

Personally, I think it was a waste of tax payers dollars.

seeker_two

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 07:49:07 AM »
Next question: what happens to the data that was collected on the guns that have been ruled out? Has it been destroyed, or is it now on a national database?.....
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AJ Dual

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 08:11:27 AM »
Next question: what happens to the data that was collected on the guns that have been ruled out? Has it been destroyed, or is it now on a national database?.....

Unless you mean the forensic evidence of ballistic/barrel markings and primer indentations, it's already in the 4473 system, so there's not much to add. I believe the FBI maintains a database, but it's only for firearms collected as evidence in Federal matters.

And the usefulness of forensics as a sole means of solving crimes is widely overblown in the public's mind, due to shows like CSI:Hoboken, or whatever. It's very rare for forensics alone to identify the perpetrator. All it tells you is if the same person/gun was involved in a series of crimes, or makes the case in court more airtight once the perpetrator is found and they can then be compared back to the collected evidence. Actually figuring out who the hell did the crime is still almost always simple human intel, witnesses, beating the streets asking questions, or someone blabs.

The last high profile case where guns of certain makes/calibers were all rounded up for testing was the D.C. Sniper case. And we know how effective that was. Their Bushmaster XM-15 was stolen from a gunshop on the other end of the country. IMO, when they do this, it's more a sign of fishing/desperation because they have zero of the human intel that actualy cracks cases to go on, and there's a lot of media and political pressure to "look busy".

And the unconnected nature of random, thrill, and serial killers almost completely obviates the human intel chain, and that's why those types give law enforcment hives, and they've had to go to indirect methods like psychological profiling, and massive media coverage, so elderly mom starts to have doubts about her loner 40 y.o. son in the basment with his Barbie collection, and if the washing machine really did destroy all her pantyhose...

And the high profile gun case mentioned before that, the visits to everyone with a certain brand of aftermarket .380 ACP Makarov conversion barrel was because one was used in the murder of a Federal prosecutor or judge (I forget), and that kind of got Uncle Sam's dander up, and the FBI went into "no stone unturned" mode for several years over it.

And IIRC, unless it's the distinctive rectangular striker mark and primer flow into the Glock striker opening in the breechface, the only other commonly sold handgun with polygonal rifling is the HK family. And I believe the Glock and HK barrels do not have the same number of flats in them. (Or does it vary by caliber? IIRC, larger has more flats, smaller less .45 8 flats, 9mm has six?)

And while I don't know about Oklahoma or it's various jurisdictions, if I were planning something criminally minded here in SE WI and cared about my forensics trail, a .40 Glock would be what I'd choose. Because it's the service sidearm of the MPD and I'm willing to bet the Glock 22 is the most widely used single make and caliber combination in the U.S. right now in LEO use...
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 08:33:30 AM »
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=386344&page=9

long thread on thr on this
and there is a link there about a guy who submitted dna on a volunteer basis to try and get his brother on a murder beef  he ended up nailed for a 10 year old rape. folks aree not too bright sometimes. and cops cover the longshots   many times a case gets solved by being lucky
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MechAg94

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 09:27:54 AM »
I noticed my M&P 40 has a distinctive primer strike pattern.  I am not sure if that is normal or not. 

I am not sure I would volunteer for this.  I would hate for them to make some sort of mistake and try to nab me for something.  I guess I am "anti-government" though.  Cheesy
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 09:43:20 AM »


What I am expecting here is that lazy ATF goons will keep their new toy of a database, and re-use it to harass these same gun owners the next time there's an unsolved crime with the same caliber in the area. And the next time. And the next time.

But remember, the 4473 system is not gun registration.
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ilbob

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 09:44:25 AM »
Bullet forensic science is not anywhere near the lock that it is portrayed on CSI-Hoboken.
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Balog

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 09:46:35 AM »


What I am expecting here is that lazy ATF goons will keep their new toy of a database, and re-use it to harass these same gun owners the next time there's an unsolved crime with the same caliber in the area. And the next time. And the next time.

But remember, the 4473 system is not gun registration.

Not until MacDaddy closes the "gun show loophole" and bans private transfers, while the NRA brags about how they prevented even worse.......
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 09:58:28 AM »
Wait a minute... a 4473 is a FEDERAL form.  How the heck were STATE authorities able to access them without a request to the ATF?

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K Frame

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Re: Oklahoma did WHAT with 4473's?!
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »
Nothing in the form or the law exempts its examination by local law enforcement.
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