The KosKids really are retards

[roo_ster]

Pretending that this doesn't hurt the McCain/Palin ticket is denial.

It should not matter, and it's wrong to make her a target or to involve her family in politics this way.  But that's the way politics are done here-happens to all sides. 

Just because you support one side over the other doesn't mean that it will escape the damage from something that, in a perfect world, would not matter.

This is one of the more unsavoury aspects of "character" or "identity" politics: when you are running primarily on who you are, and the quality of your "character" as opposed to your willingness to enact specific, well-defined policies, these sorts of things impact your odds of winning an election.

If elections were about policy and specific plans for government, this wouldn't matter, but these elections aren't really about policy. 

You need to spend more time with Christian evangelicals/fundies.  A goodly proportion of them became that way be screwing up and then realizing the error of their ways and then getting on the right path.  It is the stuff of witness.

[De Selby]

Pretending that this doesn't hurt the McCain/Palin ticket is denial.

It should not matter, and it's wrong to make her a target or to involve her family in politics this way.  But that's the way politics are done here-happens to all sides. 

Just because you support one side over the other doesn't mean that it will escape the damage from something that, in a perfect world, would not matter.

This is one of the more unsavoury aspects of "character" or "identity" politics: when you are running primarily on who you are, and the quality of your "character" as opposed to your willingness to enact specific, well-defined policies, these sorts of things impact your odds of winning an election.

If elections were about policy and specific plans for government, this wouldn't matter, but these elections aren't really about policy. 

You need to spend more time with Christian evangelicals/fundies.  A goodly proportion of them became that way be screwing up and then realizing the error of their ways and then getting on the right path.  It is the stuff of witness.

How many of those types of votes were in play already anyway, though?

It's the undecided "character" voters that Obama and McCain are fighting for at this point-people who are strongly committed to conservative causes aren't going to switch to Obama, and neither are committed liberals going to vote for McCain. 

The reason why this is bad for McCain is the nature of the voter in question, not the event. 

[lacoochee]

The problem that you having shootinstudent is that you don't truly understand the other side.  You have bought the line that Republicans are all religous zealots just waiting to paste the scarlet letter on some whore of Babylon.  When in fact most Republicans are just trying to to take care of their families as best on what they can earn and keep (20 - 40% going to .gov).  Sarah Palin has done the same thing she was not born with a silver spoon her mouth she has not lived a charmed life she didn't go to Harvard or Yale, she has 5 children.  She is us and so is her family.

She is actually going to get more votes for McCain with her daughter being pregnant, her daughter is beautiful the daughter's boyfriend could play an actor on One Tree hill.  I have actually heard women in Wal-Mart referring to her as "Sarah", trust me on this Obama is going to lose and and lose big. 

This woman, her family and story would make an excellent teen drama show, like Everwood.







The American public is going to hang on every action this family takes from now on.
 

[De Selby]

lacoochee,

On many issues I am "the other side."  I don't think this latest news sensation is going to take conservative voters away from McCain-indeed, he will probably get all of those committed conservative votes already.  They're not really in play.

What I do think is that the crowds of undecideds, who are not, by this point, committed to any particular cause, ideology, or anything else, will be affected in the negative by this.  Not because they are religious, pretend-principled, or because of any definite beliefs-but rather because they don't have any such core beliefs or firmness that would've already made them either Obama or McCain supporters a long time ago.

These are the people who are waiting to see "if they like Obama or McCain", or "what kind of guys they really are", ie, for character evidence.  And as to proving character, any scandal of this nature is a negative-it costs votes.

And Obama is already winning big on this issue: he's making himself out to be a protector figure by condemning all the criticism and vowing to fire anyone who engages in it from his campaign. 

When running for president and trying to grab the masses of undecideds two months out, you don't want to be in the position of having your opponent declaring that the illegitimate children in your family should be out of bounds for discussion. 

[The Annoyed Man]

And Obama is already winning big on this issue: he's making himself out to be a protector figure by condemning all the criticism and vowing to fire anyone who engages in it from his campaign.

That sounds good if you say it fast. But the truth is his campaign jumped out too quick and went deep into the gutter without the facts. He as usual was two days late and a dollar short to make the train. It left the station and the middle of the road voters (my parents are of that group) are not believing the half hearted attempts by Obiden to repudiate what was already printed.

It was a given back in the days of real journalism that before you went to press with a story you would have two verifiable sources. Today you only need an imagination. What passes for journalism today wouldn't make piss poor fiction in the past.

Jim

[Matthew Carberry]

Wow, so the Kossacks were right...about 9 months too late.  How far along is she now? 

The Palin's say 5 months.  A bit crassly, that'd put conception right about their April 12 prom.

It's a story as American as apple pie. 

[Bigjake]

It was a given back in the days of real journalism that before you went to press with a story you would have two verifiable sources. Today you only need an imagination. What passes for journalism today wouldn't make piss poor fiction in the past.

Jim

Amen

[De Selby]

And Obama is already winning big on this issue: he's making himself out to be a protector figure by condemning all the criticism and vowing to fire anyone who engages in it from his campaign.

That sounds good if you say it fast. But the truth is his campaign jumped out too quick and went deep into the gutter without the facts. He as usual was two days late and a dollar short to make the train. It left the station and the middle of the road voters (my parents are of that group) are not believing the half hearted attempts by Obiden to repudiate what was already printed.

It was a given back in the days of real journalism that before you went to press with a story you would have two verifiable sources. Today you only need an imagination. What passes for journalism today wouldn't make piss poor fiction in the past.

Jim

Huh? Is there any evidence whatsoever that the Obama campaign was connected to the rumors two days ago?

Just like you wouldn't expect McCain to comment on every "Obama's a Muslim!" article on google, I'm not sure why you'd expect the same from Obama. 

[The Annoyed Man]

So you are saying that the KOS kids are not connected to Obama's campaign? 

Do not try and pretend that you are unaware of the use of proxies to sling mud during a campaign. He is from the Chicago school of politics.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/08/30/stay-classy-daily-kos-accusations-palin-faked-her-pregnancy-down

Just read the comments under the article if you won't read the article. Then again maybe you shouldn't as you might see one of your posts there.

Jim

[De Selby]

Of course there are proxies-but I am repeating the claim, and I believe no documentation or even a second hand report will arise to dispute it, that Obama's campaign had nothing to do with the rumor mill of the past couple of days.  Just like it's unreasonable to believe that the McCain HQ is out there wasting its time by floating stories about Barack's "secret pact with islam" or whatever you want to call it.

Try this:  If I posted an article with rumors about Obama, and then pointed to the comments as 'proof' that McCain's campaign had planted the story....would you accept that McCain was farming tinfoil hattery about Obama?

I don't think any of us with eyes to see and brains to interpret the information would.  Likewise when you're talking about leftist looney rumors.

[The Annoyed Man]

Thursday Aug 28th:
 

"Governor Palin shares John McCain's commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade, the agenda of Big Oil and continuing George Bush's failed economic policies. That's not the change we need, it's just more of the same,"

  http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080829171140.5123i228&show_article=1

Friday Aug 29th:

Okay, I just have to diary about this, although in many ways this falls into the "none of our business category". 

But it appears that Pallin's last child, a baby with Down's syndrome, may not be hers.  It may be that of her teenage daughter.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/17933/7330/417/579267

Sept. 1st:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/obama-to-media.html

"Let me be a clear as possible:  I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits," Obama said, "and people's children are especially off limits.

"This shouldn't be part of our politics," he continued, "It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.

He waited until asked the question instead of issuing a statement reaffirming his stance. And you know well that if it makes it through a complete news cycle that it becomes a meme.

The Democratic presidential nominee said, "There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us. I hope I am as clear as can be  so in case Im not, let me repeat: We don't go after people's families, we don't get them involved in the politics. It's not appropriate and it's not relevant."

Concluded Obama before getting on his campaign bus headed to Milwaukee, Wisc., "Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought that it was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they'd be fired."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/obama-to-media.html

Now lets see if it turns out that his close associates had nothing to do with this.

Jim

P.S.

Highlighted the part you didn't read. You say there will be no evidence to put Obama's people inside these attacks. Let us see if this turns out to be true. So far he doesn't have a very good track record with regard to honesty and forthrightness.

The Obama campaign was not prepared for the Palin announcement, a choice that was unexpected but not totally off the radar. Thats not good in politics but its very discouraging in governing. In fact, it makes the Obama campaign sound as clueless as it often describes the Bush Administration.

http://patterico.com/2008/08/29/obama-campaign-reaction-to-palin/

Maybe this is why you are getting gung ho for Obiden?

The respected Israeli newspaper Ha'artez today repeated an Israeli Army Radio report that Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del, the Democratic vice presidential nominee, told "senior Israeli officials behind closed doors that the Jewish state will have to reconcile itself to a nuclear Iran."

"Israel will have to reconcile itself with the nuclearization of Iran," Army Radio said that Biden told the unnamed officials. "It's doubtful if the economic sanctions will be effective, and I am against opening an additional military and diplomatic front."

[De Selby]

Okay, a list of articles shows Obama's campaign floated the story how? I'm not sure how that addresses the question.

And, fyi, this is about the fifth time I've said this: I do not support Obama/Biden.

[Antibubba]

Carebear put it so much better than I would have.

The only way this hurts the Palin's is that Bristol won't be able to work the nets during the salmon run.   

[The Annoyed Man]

Oh I wouldn't count her out. Her mother had Trig and went back to work three days later. When she had her youngest daughter she only missed two days of work.

Jim

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

lacoochee,

On many issues I am "the other side."  I don't think this latest news sensation is going to take conservative voters away from McCain-indeed, he will probably get all of those committed conservative votes already.  They're not really in play.

What I do think is that the crowds of undecideds, who are not, by this point, committed to any particular cause, ideology, or anything else, will be affected in the negative by this.  Not because they are religious, pretend-principled, or because of any definite beliefs-but rather because they don't have any such core beliefs or firmness that would've already made them either Obama or McCain supporters a long time ago.

These are the people who are waiting to see "if they like Obama or McCain", or "what kind of guys they really are", ie, for character evidence.  And as to proving character, any scandal of this nature is a negative-it costs votes.

And Obama is already winning big on this issue: he's making himself out to be a protector figure by condemning all the criticism and vowing to fire anyone who engages in it from his campaign. 

When running for president and trying to grab the masses of undecideds two months out, you don't want to be in the position of having your opponent declaring that the illegitimate children in your family should be out of bounds for discussion. 

Whooosh!  That was the sound of lacoochee's point sailing right over your head. 

Daughter got pregnant on Prom night?  Trying to do the right thing about it now?  Welcome to real life.  Elitist, out-of-touch politicians need not apply.

It isn't about character, it's about being real.  It's about being able to relate to voters.  All politicians talk about being able to relate, but Sarah Palin and her family really do it.  It's about voters actually liking their elected representatives, not just for being good representatives, but for being good, decent people.

The public is going to hang on this family's every move.  The public is going to root for this family.  The more we learn about Palin's family, struggles and all, the more people are going to vote for her and McCain.  Count on it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its called putting your money where your mouth is as far as being prolife. a couple concepts alien in some circles

[De Selby]

The public is going to hang on this family's every move.  The public is going to root for this family.  The more we learn about Palin's family, struggles and all, the more people are going to vote for her and McCain.  Count on it.

That would be a nice dream result for McCain supporters, but unfortunately, soap operas surrounding politicians tend to sink their careers, not support them.

Everyone loves a bad boy in the movies who's just trying to make things right, too-but in real life, he's usually on strike three without anyone actually knowing his name.

I think you are tremendously over-stating the potential benefit of a "soap opera" type narrative to campaign on.  The proven formula for character is being known for firmness, having everybody like you, and it helps to just plain be a celebrity on top of it (think of reagan)...sympathy votes because you are having a serious family issue will not carry an election.

It helps even less that most people will be learning her name for the first time during this period-now the conversation among the undecideds is likely to run like this:  "Sarah Palin, from Alaska?" "Who's that?"  "The lady with the teen pregnancy story."

Not good, when you're trying to sell yourself on character.

[wmenorr67]

The Dems are even backing away quickly from this.  They realize that this is at least a push if not in favor for the Rep.  They know they cannot touch it because if they do it will backfire on them.

[De Selby]

Maybe a better way to explain the politics of this is by imagining the McCain team, sitting in its office, choosing a VP:

One member raises his hand, and says "I propose we find a family values candidate, with a child who has fathered an illegitimate child or is about to have one! That way, we'll relate to all those hard working Americans whose teens are pregnant, and give ourselves a huge boost in the polls! [insert maniacal laugh]"

The reason why that scenario is completely unrealistic is that, while this isn't fatal, it's certainly not good for the campaign.  No sane McCain proponent would ever have chosen this scenario in advance; trying to paint it as a boost in retrospect is primarily wishful thinking.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and yet the reports are that they knew when they chose her.  i think you are mistaken about how this will fly.

[De Selby]

and yet the reports are that they knew when they chose her.  i think you are mistaken about how this will fly.

The latest reports are that they didn't check her out all that closely-I don't think it's clear yet what they knew when, but in any case, knowing of a fact and choosing anyway doesn't imply that it's a good thing.  Everyone knew about Biden's plagiarism incident, but I highly doubt you'll find any argument that Obama thinks it's actually a boost for Biden's record...yet he was chosen.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i think you are not familiar with the types of folks who are fundamentalists. i think jfuser called it real well.  and even those who didn't mess up themselves will root for someone who tries to better themselves. this i do know

[De Selby]

i think you are not familiar with the types of folks who are fundamentalists. i think jfuser called it real well.  and even those who didn't mess up themselves will root for someone who tries to better themselves. this i do know

You know, I agree with you on this-I just don't think most of the undecideds are principled people who will admire the choice her daughter has made, and who will respect the adversity that her family will deal with in having this made public.

I would expect fundamentalists and conservative religious folk of all types to be solidly behind McCain already, and to be behind Palin as his running mate.  I just think we're dealing with a different type of voter in play, at this point.

[Antibubba]

lacoochee,

Is that Bristol on the right, or the left?  And that's "Downtown" Juneau behind them, right?

You know, I really don't care for children, but the little girl is adorable.  And that look in her eyes?  She'll be the next "Barricuda".   

---
SS, if you haven't figured it out yet, perception has a much bigger impact than reality in politics--and nothing is bigger or better than "seeing the real thing", whether it's real or not.

The Palins are The Real Thing.  And if they're not, they sure have mastered the look of it.  But I don't think they're faking it.

Do you know what her husband's "title" is, in Alaska?


First Dude.   

[wmenorr67]

In the second picture, the bottom one isn't showing up for me, she is unseen behind her mother.  She was wearing a black dress and holding Trig.

Here is a picture of her.