Author Topic: Wind turbines kill bats  (Read 31517 times)

drewtam

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2008, 04:24:29 PM »
1.) We do not, under any circumstances, want to deep six used fuel. That is valuable fuel for the future! In a few centuries we'll be digging that stuff up out of Yucca mountain to recycle it. Only 2% of the energy is used in the first pass like current US designs.

2.) Nuclear waste is small and easy to deal with.

3.) More people in the US are killed directly and indirectly by COAL production and pollution EACH YEAR than by Chernobyl AND all of the world's nuclear power combined.

4.) In order for nuclear power plants to be as deadly as coal on a yearly basis, they would need one significant meltdown and containment breach every month for the whole year.

5.) Every coal power plant produces more radioactive waste that goes to toxic waste dumps than a nuclear power plant that goes to controlled and encased storage facilities. (because nuclear waste is small and easy to deal with)

6.) Nuclear power is cheap enough to compete now without significant subsidies.

7.) There is enough nuclear fuel reserves and resources to power the future's entire world population (~15 billion people) at American levels of energy use per capita, for 200,000+ years. Some experts estimate the resource at over a billion years, that is, longer than the sun will survive. But even 100,000years seems good enough for me. smiley

8.) To use the most extreme resources counted in point #6 would likely cost about $1000+/lb of fuel to recover(current price is ~$80/lb). That would increase current electricity prices by $0.02/kwhr. Current prices are ~$0.10/kwhr, so a $200 electric bill per month would be $240 in this far flung future.

9.) There are fully functional prototype reactors that are designed so that physics prevents the reactor from being capable of melting down. Even if the operators go on strike for centuries.

10.) Nuclear reactors in the US have been designed for decades to withstand a direct impact by a 747 size aircraft. One plant, Florida's Turkey Point NGS, survived a direct hit by Category 5 Hurricane Andrew in 1992, with no damage to the containment.

11.) I mean no exaggeration or hyperbole when I say, I am willing to move my family (wife and 11mos daughter) next to a nuclear power plant. But I would not do that for a coal plant.


12.) Nuclear power produces no greenhouse gases. It produces zero NOx, CO, or HC. (NOx and HC are primary ingredients in smog and ground level ozone which is asthmatic.)



To sum all of these points up, the energy security of the future via the use of nuclear energy is not a technical problem, but a political problem.


I have nothing against natural gas, wind, geothermal, or solar. I contend that solar and wind have not been developed enough to be viable primary energy sources but may be in the near future. "1 bird in the hand is better than 2 birds in the tree."
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Firethorn

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2008, 04:54:50 PM »
1.) We do not, under any circumstances, want to deep six used fuel. That is valuable fuel for the future! In a few centuries we'll be digging that stuff up out of Yucca mountain to recycle it. Only 2% of the energy is used in the first pass like current US designs.

And I mentioned this a couple pages back.  Glad to see that we're on the same page. smiley
Though the reusable fuel, as I understand it, is closer to 90-95% rather than 98%.  *Shrug*  Still not much difference.

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2.) Nuclear waste is small and easy to deal with.

To be more specific, A gigawatt range nuclear plant produces two rail cars, to include shielding, per year.  A similarly sized coal plant can go through 200 cars of coal a day.

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3.) More people in the US are killed directly and indirectly by COAL production and pollution EACH YEAR than by Chernobyl AND all of the world's nuclear power combined.

Living near even recently built coal plants raises your odds of lung cancer to that of a 'former smoker'.  Meanwhile, coal kills hundreds/thousands each year in China in mining accidents.  Here in the USA, millions, maybe even billions, are spend treating the associated Asthma, and buildings were damaged from the acid rain.

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4.) In order for nuclear power plants to be as deadly as coal on a yearly basis, they would need one significant meltdown and containment breach every month for the whole year.

Chernobyl killed around 50 directly, so that'd be 600 a year.  You're still short, I think.

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5.) Every coal power plant produces more radioactive waste that goes to toxic waste dumps than a nuclear power plant that goes to controlled and encased storage facilities. (because nuclear waste is small and easy to deal with)

There's more energy available in the transuranics present within most coal deposits than can be gained by burning the coal.  In a nuclear power plant, said waste is contained.  In coal plants, it can end up in your bricks.  Funny fact:  The US congress building would be too radioactive to be certified as a operational nuclear plant; indeed, it'd be classified as nuclear waste requiring special containment and cleanup.  The stone used in the building is naturally radioactive.

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6.) Nuclear power is cheap enough to compete now without significant subsidies.

Only Coal beats it for 'least subsidies'

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7.) There is enough nuclear fuel reserves and resources to power the future's entire world population (~15 billion people) at American levels of energy use per capita, for 200,000+ years. Some experts estimate the resource at over a billion years, that is, longer than the sun will survive. But even 100,000years seems good enough for me. smiley

Those estimates have us doing some funky things like filtering the oceans near the end, but it's doable.

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8.) To use the most extreme resources counted in point #6 would likely cost about $1000+/lb of fuel to recover(current price is ~$80/lb). That would increase current electricity prices by $0.02/kwhr. Current prices are ~$0.10/kwhr, so a $200 electric bill per month would be $240 in this far flung future.

Yep, fuel costs for a nuke plant are considered 'insignificant'.

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9.) There are fully functional prototype reactors that are designed so that physics prevents the reactor from being capable of melting down. Even if the operators go on strike for centuries.

Most of our operational reactors have this design.

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10.) Nuclear reactors in the US have been designed for decades to withstand a direct impact by a 747 size aircraft. One plant, Florida's Turkey Point NGS, survived a direct hit by Category 5 Hurricane Andrew in 1992, with no damage to the containment.

Because of the secondary containment structure, which is supposed to withstand a worst case Chernobyl cap blow intact.

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11.) I mean no exaggeration or hyperbole when I say, I am willing to move my family (wife and 11mos daughter) next to a nuclear power plant. But I would not do that for a coal plant.

Agreed.

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12.) Nuclear power produces no greenhouse gases. It produces zero NOx, CO, or HC. (NOx and HC are primary ingredients in smog and ground level ozone which is asthmatic.)

For that matter we can use the heat and power for various schemes to make fertilizer, ethanol, make hydrogen, etc...

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To sum all of these points up, the energy security of the future via the use of nuclear energy is not a technical problem, but a political problem.

Have you been reading my notes?   rolleyes

Regolith

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2008, 06:06:01 PM »
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Funny fact:  The US congress building would be too radioactive to be certified as a operational nuclear plant; indeed, it'd be classified as nuclear waste requiring special containment and cleanup.  The stone used in the building is naturally radioactive.

That explains a lot.  grin



Anyway, one criticism drewtam:  its estimated the sun will hit its red giant stage in 5 billion years, not 1 billion.

Not that it changes a whole lot; I doubt we will need to rely on fission for power in 100 years, let alone 1 billion. By then, fusion will have come online, if we're lucky, or solar will become efficient enough to be an acceptable replacement.
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drewtam

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2008, 07:45:33 PM »

Anyway, one criticism drewtam:  its estimated the sun will hit its red giant stage in 5 billion years, not 1 billion.


My bad. Maybe there is something about the sun getting too cold for life after a billion years that I'm think of, or maybe it expands enough to be too hot/close. who knows.

Yeah, if we can't figure out how to make space solar or fusion or whatever work after 100,000 years; then our descendants will deserve to return to the stone age. But most of that stuff will likely be figured out in the next 50-150 years rather than 1000years or 100,000years. After all, even 1,000yrs is a pretty long time in terms of human civilization.

My point isn't to bash coal as the death of us all. But to make the stark comparison that if we (as a society) are willing to accept the negatives that coal brings for over 200 years, then we should realize the reasonableness of nuclear.
No intelligent supporter of nuclear energy will ever say "nuclear energy is perfectly safe." That would be ridiculous. Nuclear is just significantly safer than what we currently use, and we seem to find what we currently use acceptable. Is solar, wind, geothermal, biomass fuel, etc safer? Pretty likely. But until those technologies develop to the point of being economical, we got a great, proven, safe enough, and sustainable "plan B". When it comes to the survival of our civilization, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

K Frame

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2008, 07:53:42 PM »
"its estimated the sun will hit its red giant stage in 5 billion years, not 1 billion."

Holy crap!

Why aren't the Democrats making this impending global warming catastrophe known?

WHY AREN'T THEY DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT???
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

K Frame

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2008, 09:04:17 PM »
"Because, unlike the Don Quixote jousting at windmills and fighting imaginary enemies abroad, the Dems realize there are real needs right here."

Heheheheheheheheh...

Yeah....

Like keeping those hyper deadly grenade launching pistol grip equipped assault weapons o'hyper death out of the hands of Harry the Lawabiding Homeowner, who used them to wantonly slaughter hundreds of thousands of American citizens every year...

Like giving free health care to crack whores and smack junkies, and making you and me pay for it (well, me, at least)...

Oh, let's not forget their task of routinely reminding us that it will take oil companies a minimum of 10 years to bring any ANWAR or offshore oil online.

Yeah, the Democrats have a LOT to do here...


Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

erictank

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #106 on: September 05, 2008, 04:01:58 AM »
My dad is moving to a town past Richmond with a Nuclear plant that cools off from the local lake.  The lake stays like 80 degrees year round they say.  Far as I can think, that can't be anything but good for local aquatic life.

Ahhh, the Lake Anna plant - I worked there for several years, till I moved to NoVA.  The property owners around the lake are (were before I left, and I can't imagine they've stopped since) griping over Dominion's plans to add a third reactor to the site, because it'd degrade the property values on their lakefront property.  For some reason, they never seem to understand that without Dominion's nuclear site, there'd BE no "Lake Anna".  It's a man-made lake built specifically to cool the reactors, of which there were originally (late 70's to early 80's) supposed to be FOUR.

It IS a nice lake, and some of the fish get freakin' HUGE.  Still haven't seen Blinky, though (the 3-eyed fish from The Simpsons).

French G.

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #107 on: September 05, 2008, 04:10:36 AM »
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"its estimated the sun will hit its red giant stage in 5 billion years, not 1 billion."

Holy crap!

Why aren't the Democrats making this impending global warming catastrophe known?

WHY AREN'T THEY DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT???

Because anything we do would take ten billion years and would not really help the consumer?  cheesy

Poor Lake Anna property owners. I saw in an agricultural real estate report where 4.something acres, zoned A-1, sold for over a million in Bumpass, VA. Rezone and develop those 4 acres into lakefront mansions I assume.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

K Frame

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #108 on: September 05, 2008, 05:03:05 AM »
"Bumpass, VA"

Before anyone laughs at that, that is the ACTUAL name of the place.

Bumpass.

I've been there while compiling evidence that a friend's wife is a lying, cheating, whore.

It truly IS a bump on the ass of Virginia.

Now you may commence your laughter.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #109 on: September 05, 2008, 05:05:16 AM »
"Bumpass, VA"

Before anyone laughs at that, that is the ACTUAL name of the place.

Bumpass.

I've been there while compiling evidence that a friend's wife is a lying, cheating, whore.

It truly IS a bump on the ass of Virginia.

Now you may commence your laughter.

Mike, I never knew you were a P.I. on the side?
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K Frame

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2008, 05:08:05 AM »
There's a lot you don't know about me.
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Scout26

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Re: Wind turbines kill bats
« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2008, 06:59:10 AM »
I've been there while compiling evidence that a friend's wife is a lying, cheating, whore.

"Compiling evidence"........hmmmm is that a confession ??




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