Author Topic: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipstick  (Read 6101 times)

wacki

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I thought you guys might like this Salon article written by a University of Michigan professor.  Wikipedia claims this guy has a rather large fan base among Yale professors.  So much so he was almost given a senior position at Yale.  The best part is that he didn't even apply for the job, he was nominated.

Also, some of his facts are wrong.  Both LittleGreenFootballs & FactCheck.org have debunked the "Palin pushes creationism" claims:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

Quote
# Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska's schools. She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution question, but she also said creationism "doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."


Now for the article:
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/09/09/palin_fundamentalist/print.html

What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipstick
A theocrat is a theocrat, whether Muslim or Christian.

By Juan Cole

Sep. 09, 2008 | John McCain announced that he was running for president to confront the "transcendent challenge" of the 21st century, "radical Islamic extremism," contrasting it with "stability, tolerance and democracy." But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers. On censorship, the teaching of creationism in schools, reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God's will and climate change, Palin agrees with Hamas and Saudi Arabia rather than supporting tolerance and democratic precepts. What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.

McCain pledged to work for peace based on "the transformative ideals on which we were founded." Tolerance and democracy require freedom of speech and the press, but while mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, Palin inquired of the local librarian how to go about banning books that some of her constituents thought contained inappropriate language. She tried to fire the librarian for defying her. Book banning is common to fundamentalisms around the world, and the mind-set Palin displayed did not differ from that of the Hamas minister of education in the Palestinian government who banned a book of Palestinian folk tales for its sexually explicit language. In contrast, Thomas Jefferson wrote, "Our liberty cannot be guarded but by the freedom of the press, nor that be limited without danger of losing it."

Palin argued when running for governor that creationism should be taught in public schools, at taxpayers' expense, alongside real science. Antipathy to Darwin for providing an alternative to the creation stories of the Bible and the Quran has also become a feature of Muslim fundamentalism. Saudi Arabia prohibits the study, even in universities, of evolution, Freud and Marx. Malaysia has banned a translation of "The Origin of the Species." Likewise, fundamentalists in Turkey have pressured the government to teach creationism in the public schools. McCain has praised Turkey as an anchor of democracy in the region, but Turkey's secular traditions are under severe pressure from fundamentalists in that country. McCain does them no favors by choosing a running mate who wishes to destroy the First Amendment's establishment clause, which forbids the state to give official support to any particular theology. Turkish religious activists would thereby be enabled to cite an American precedent for their own quest to put religion back at the center of Ankara's public and foreign policies.

The GOP vice-presidential pick holds that abortion should be illegal, even in cases of rape, incest or severe birth defects, making an exception only if the life of the mother is in danger. She calls abortion an "atrocity" and pledges to reshape the judiciary to fight it. Ironically, Palin's views on the matter are to the right of those in the Muslim country of Tunisia, which allows abortion in the first trimester for a wide range of reasons. Classical Muslim jurisprudents differed among one another on the issue of abortion, but many permitted it before the "quickening" of the fetus, i.e. until the end of the fourth month. Contemporary Muslim fundamentalists, however, generally oppose abortion.

Palin's stance is even stricter than that of the Parliament of the Islamic Republic of Iran. In 2005, the legislature in Tehran attempted to amend the country's antiabortion statute to permit an abortion up to four months in case of a birth defect. The conservative clerical Guardianship Council, which functions as a sort of theocratic senate, however, rejected the change. Iran's law on abortion is therefore virtually identical to the one that Palin would like to see imposed on American women, and the rationale in both cases is the same, a literalist religious impulse that resists any compromise with the realities of biology and of women's lives. Saudi Arabia's restrictive law on abortion likewise disallows it in the case or rape or incest, or of fetal impairment, which is also Gov. Palin's position.

Theocrats confuse God's will with their own mortal policies. Just as Muslim fundamentalists believe that God has given them the vast oil and gas resources in their regions, so Palin asks church workers in Alaska to pray for a $30 billion pipeline in the state because "God's will has to get done." Likewise, Palin maintained that her task as governor would be impeded "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God." Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei of Iran expresses much the same sentiment when he says "the only way to attain prosperity and progress is to rely on Islam."

Not only does Palin not believe global warming is "man-made," she favors massive new drilling to spew more carbon into the atmosphere. Both as a fatalist who has surrendered to God's inscrutable will and as a politician from an oil-rich region, she thereby echoes Saudi Arabia. Riyadh has been found to have exercised inappropriate influence in watering down a report in 2007 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Neither Christians nor Muslims necessarily share the beliefs detailed above. Many believers in both traditions uphold freedom of speech and the press. Indeed, in a recent poll, over 90 percent of Egyptians and Iranians said that they would build freedom of expression into any constitution they designed. Many believers find ways of reconciling the scientific theory of evolution with faith in God, not finding it necessary to believe that the world was created suddenly only 6,000 ago. Some medieval Muslim thinkers asserted that the world had existed from eternity, and others spoke of cycles of hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Mystical Muslim poets spoke of humankind traversing the stages of mineral, plant and animal. Modern Islamic fundamentalists have attempted to narrow this great, diverse tradition.

The classical Islamic legal tradition generally permitted, while frowning on, contraception and abortion, and complete opposition to them is mostly a feature of modern fundamentalist thinking. Many believers in both Islam and Christianity would see it as hubris to tie God to specific government policies or to a particular political party. As for global warming, green theology, in which Christians and Muslims appeal to Scripture in fighting global warming, is an increasing tendency in both traditions.

Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. The most noxious belief that Palin shares with Muslim fundamentalists is her conviction that faith is not a private affair of individuals but rather a moral imperative that believers should import into statecraft wherever they have the opportunity to do so. That is the point of her pledge to shape the judiciary. Such a theocratic impulse is incompatible with the Founding Fathers' commitment to tolerance and democracy, which is why they forbade the government to "establish" or officially support any particular religion or denomination.

McCain once excoriated the Rev. Jerry Falwell and his ilk as "agents of intolerance." That he took such a position gave his opposition to similar intolerance in Islam credibility. In light of his more recent disgraceful kowtowing to the Christian right, McCain's animus against fundamentalist Muslims no longer looks consistent. It looks bigoted and invidious. You can't say you are waging a war on religious extremism if you are trying to put a religious extremist a heartbeat away from the presidency.

-- By Juan Cole

wacki

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Oh, here's another fun article from Salon:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2008/09/09/mistress_palin/index.html
The dominatrix
By Gary Kamiya

Sarah Palin is trying to seduce independent voters. But she comes across like a whip-wielding mistress who wants to discipline a naughty America........


MechAg94

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Quote
Not only does Palin not believe global warming is "man-made," she favors massive new drilling to spew more carbon into the atmosphere.
shocked  Oh no, we can't elect someone who doesn't tow the line!

Quote
Both as a fatalist who has surrendered to God's inscrutable will and as a politician from an oil-rich region, she thereby echoes Saudi Arabia.
I think this and the rest of it just shows this writer has no understanding of Christianity, and doesn't seem to mind implying mulim nations are inferior either. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Scout26

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Oh, here's another fun article from Salon:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2008/09/09/mistress_palin/index.html
The dominatrix
By Gary Kamiya

Sarah Palin is trying to seduce independent voters. But she comes across like a whip-wielding mistress who wants to discipline a naughty America........



And so what's the problem ??
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

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Quote
What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipstick
A theocrat is a theocrat, whether Muslim or Christian.

Riiiiiiight.  Because Islam and Christianity are exactly the same, and Plymouth and Salem were exactly like Mecca and Kabul. 
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longeyes

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Perhaps Prof. Cole should aim his powerful intellect at Islamic autocracy and take his game "over there."  I'm sure he will find a few fellow "intellectuals" in the Ummah to make abundantly clear to him why the facile parallel between Islam and Christianity falls short.  Like most heavy breathers on the Left in America he has one bete noire, "the Christian Right," and if it didn't exist he would have to invent it.  You'd think that he, as a proponent of the Baha'i faith, would see from the persecution of that religion that the standards of tolerance here and there are understood very differently.
"Domari nolo."

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De Selby

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Perhaps Prof. Cole should aim his powerful intellect at Islamic autocracy and take his game "over there."  I'm sure he will find a few fellow "intellectuals" in the Ummah to make abundantly clear to him why the facile parallel between Islam and Christianity falls short.  Like most heavy breathers on the Left in America he has one bete noire, "the Christian Right," and if it didn't exist he would have to invent it.  You'd think that he, as a proponent of the Baha'i faith, would see from the persecution of that religion that the standards of tolerance here and there are understood very differently.

His game is over there-the main difference between Juan Cole and his detractors is that his level of subject matter expertise so far exceeds theirs that there just isn't a real discussion.

How is someone who can't even read the source material going to debate an experienced professor on a particular subject?  It's a silly notion.

Cole does, btw, regularly attack the fundamentalists and the countries that host them-witness his article, which would make no sense if he were a worshipper of the altar of south asian, central asian, and middle eastern dictatorships.  It doesn't even appear to be a claim that Islam and Christianity are similar: Just that most Christians and most Muslims have similarly reconciled their beliefs with modern freedoms.

There is one thing Cole should be commended for, whatever your view on his politics: he's backing a project to translate all of the literature of the founding fathers of America into the middle eastern languages.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

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Most Muslims have reconciled their beliefs with modern freedoms?  I imagine you base that on the many exemplary Islamic republics that all of us look to as beacons of openness, tolerance, and liberty...?

Cole may have his heart in the right place, but my point was that the common currency of American intellectuals (and wannabe intellectuals) is an obsession with the looming shadow of "the Christian Right," real or imagined.
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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roo_ster

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Juan Cole, the "Jerry Hough* of Middle East Studies."






* Hough is/was a Sovietologist and a very learned fellow festooned with academic credentials and able to read all the major languages of the USSR.  He also held the notion that Stalin was responsible for the deaths of, "ten thousand or so" people in his purges.

I remember at Columbia University more than twenty years ago Stephen Cohen saying to me, "There's someone here who thinks Stalin only killed ten thousand people." "No there isn't," I aid confidently. Steve took me over and said, "Jerry, how many people did Stalin kill?" "Ten thousand or so."
----Robert Conquest
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roo_ster

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De Selby

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Most Muslims have reconciled their beliefs with modern freedoms?  I imagine you base that on the many exemplary Islamic republics that all of us look to as beacons of openness, tolerance, and liberty...?

Cole may have his heart in the right place, but my point was that the common currency of American intellectuals (and wannabe intellectuals) is an obsession with the looming shadow of "the Christian Right," real or imagined.

Well, for one thing, there is no democratic "Islamic republic", consequently, it would be absurd to take the practices of places like Iran and Saudi Arabia as exemplars of what most Muslims have accepted.

If you look to places where Muslims get to vote, that is exactly what you find-more tolerance, openness, and liberty than in any place where Muslims are not allowed to vote.

The fact is that American intellectuals are obsessed with the Christian right because that is a political force in America.  It would be a bit silly for them to be preocupied with a "Muslim faction" that does not exist as a political reality in their country.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 10:13:54 PM »
Juan Cole, the "Jerry Hough* of Middle East Studies."

* Hough is/was a Sovietologist and a very learned fellow festooned with academic credentials and able to read all the major languages of the USSR.  He also held the notion that Stalin was responsible for the deaths of, "ten thousand or so" people in his purges.

I remember at Columbia University more than twenty years ago Stephen Cohen saying to me, "There's someone here who thinks Stalin only killed ten thousand people." "No there isn't," I aid confidently. Steve took me over and said, "Jerry, how many people did Stalin kill?" "Ten thousand or so."
----Robert Conquest


That's interesting, but I've never seen any substance to the charge that Juan Cole is just making up facts or denying obvious ones.  Most of his work seems to be well reviewed and accurate.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Standing Wolf

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 11:11:10 PM »
Salon.com is one of the reasons I don't still buy Adobe software.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

wacki

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 02:48:48 AM »
That's interesting, but I've never seen any substance to the charge that Juan Cole is just making up facts or denying obvious ones.  Most of his work seems to be well reviewed and accurate.

Did you not read my original post?  I had a link to and even quoted factcheck.org that was in direct contradiction with Juan Cole.  In this day and age you don't need to make facts up from thin air.  There's always some nutbag that you can quote.  It's still unethical/fraudulent behavior in many cases.

wacki

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2008, 03:02:06 AM »
Salon.com is one of the reasons I don't still buy Adobe software.

FYI: pdf recently went open source.  So you will have more choices in the future. :-D

HankB

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The article shows that Fred Thompson was right when he said the Left is in a panic over the nomination of Sarah Palin.

Even Obama is affected . . . he said that when you put lipstick on a pig, you still have a pig, in clear reference from Ms. Palin's comparison of a hockey mom and a pit bull . . . but of course, when called on it, his campaign denied that he would EVER be involved in such name-calling, and was just using an old figure of speech.  rolleyes

Yeah.

Sure.
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MicroBalrog

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Wait, we want the leaders of Western countries to be to the LEFT of Tunisian leadership?
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agricola

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There is actually quite a good piece on Salon right now by Camille Paglia:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/
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roo_ster

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2008, 05:50:18 AM »
Juan Cole, the "Jerry Hough* of Middle East Studies."

* Hough is/was a Sovietologist and a very learned fellow festooned with academic credentials and able to read all the major languages of the USSR.  He also held the notion that Stalin was responsible for the deaths of, "ten thousand or so" people in his purges.

I remember at Columbia University more than twenty years ago Stephen Cohen saying to me, "There's someone here who thinks Stalin only killed ten thousand people." "No there isn't," I aid confidently. Steve took me over and said, "Jerry, how many people did Stalin kill?" "Ten thousand or so."
----Robert Conquest


That's interesting, but I've never seen any substance to the charge that Juan Cole is just making up facts or denying obvious ones.  Most of his work seems to be well reviewed and accurate.

Well, not so well thought-of that Yale wanted anything to do with him on their faculty, given the chance to hire him away.  Quite the public snub.

Dude is an, odd, agenda-driven duck. 

I recall him on CNN/FOX/whatever saying the 2005 "pruple finger" election in Iraq as historic & several other superlatives.  Then a month later, denying it was significant and rating the Iranian elections as true-er, more democratic, and more transparent than the PFE despite all the Iranian candidates being filtered for religious/political conformity with the mullahs.

I think of Cole as the "Andrew Sullivan" of middle eastern studies*.  He has a heaping helping of talent, but his passions get in the way and lead him to writing mutually-exclusive propositions over time.  Usually in a "whatever convenient tool at hand" sort of way to prevail in a current debate, prior positions be d@mned.

I stopped taking him seriously after a while, or at least taking him seriously as a source of data and analysis.

Also, there are plenty of middle eastern scholars that don't think much of them.  Bernard Lewis being one of them, IIRC.

* Because there just are not enough analogies and writer-comparisons in this thread for my tastes.  Until I can reasonably say, "That debater is 'The Marcel Marceau,' of the spoken word" I will not be satisfied.
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roo_ster

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longeyes

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2008, 06:05:49 AM »
Quote
If you look to places where Muslims get to vote, that is exactly what you find-more tolerance, openness, and liberty than in any place where Muslims are not allowed to vote.
The fact is that American intellectuals are obsessed with the Christian right because that is a political force in America.

That they don't get to vote is the issue--or, more to the point, why they don't get to.

American intellectuals are by and large paranoid about the Christian Right.  It's not because they fear Fundamentalist oppression would stifle free inquiry; that's just a cover.
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

De Selby

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Re: Salon: What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipst
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2008, 07:06:16 AM »
That's interesting, but I've never seen any substance to the charge that Juan Cole is just making up facts or denying obvious ones.  Most of his work seems to be well reviewed and accurate.

Did you not read my original post?  I had a link to and even quoted factcheck.org that was in direct contradiction with Juan Cole.  In this day and age you don't need to make facts up from thin air.  There's always some nutbag that you can quote.  It's still unethical/fraudulent behavior in many cases.

Yeah, this is in regards to his middle east scholarship, not his political commentary, which will obviously contain political bias just like everyone else's.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."