Author Topic: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]  (Read 15259 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Until Libertarians learn how to package their views in a way that makes the average "raised on CNN"  American understand and appreciate them, they will get no where.  The Libertarians are seen as wackos mainly because they and their candidates act and talk like wackos.  Until that changes, they're going nowhere, and they're dragging a lot of their better ideas with them.

Yup Yup.  Unfortunately, Joe and Jane Sixpack don't realize that most of what they believe lines up with the libertarain point of view.
Most people hate the government.  Its a fat bloated beauracracy.  They don't like taxes.  They don't like inflation. 
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freakazoid

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
And yes, they did that in Minnesota, when a Fox reporter quite nicely tried to ask a bunch of them about their movement. The reporter was bellowed at, the libertarian/Paulian whatever bellowed "FOX NEWS SUCKS" and then the crowd picked it up as they gave a finger to the camera. That is what the mainstream audience saw of your movement in their living rooms.

Yeah, what a bunch of wackos.  rolleyes Anytime one of the protesters refused to talk with him he would say that they must not believe in the freedom of speech.  rolleyes And then once they stated chanting "FOX News sucks" he was acting like it was really dangerous for him to even be there.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

The Annoyed Man

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Until Libertarians learn how to package their views in a way that makes the average "raised on CNN"  American understand and appreciate them, they will get no where.  The Libertarians are seen as wackos mainly because they and their candidates act and talk like wackos.  Until that changes, they're going nowhere, and they're dragging a lot of their better ideas with them.

Yup Yup.  Unfortunately, Joe and Jane Sixpack don't realize that most of what they believe lines up with the libertarain point of view.
Most people hate the government.  Its a fat bloated beauracracy.  They don't like taxes.  They don't like inflation. 


as someone who actually voted , on a REAL  ballot, for a libertarian presidential candidate i believe that the whackjobs and various forms of "anarchist" that are drawn and seemingly embraced by the libertarian party have poisoned its image. perhaps beyond recovery.a shame that.

and how does one claim to be an anarchist whiule living with/off mommy and daddy  anyway


Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Until Libertarians learn how to package their views in a way that makes the average "raised on CNN"  American understand and appreciate them, they will get no where.  The Libertarians are seen as wackos mainly because they and their candidates act and talk like wackos.  Until that changes, they're going nowhere, and they're dragging a lot of their better ideas with them.

Yup Yup.  Unfortunately, Joe and Jane Sixpack don't realize that most of what they believe lines up with the libertarain point of view.
Most people hate the government.  Its a fat bloated beauracracy.  They don't like taxes.  They don't like inflation. 


Well, that's the failing of libertarians. They don't know where to stop, and don't know when to cut off the wackos among them.

As follows:

"Government should be smaller, taxes should be less and simpler."  (In general) "Yeah, I agree with that..."

"We need to dissolve the fed and the IRS and go on the gold standard!" (Paul) "Uhhh...that's kinda extreme"

"9/11 was America's fault" (Somewhat Paul, he blames us) "HEY! NOW I'm offended!"

"9/11 was an inside job" (the extreme and not exluded sorts) "OMG these people are insane, get them away from me!"


See? When asked later, now that that's their impression, "Libertarians are anarchist nuts who think 9/11 was a conspiracy".

They just don't get how to keep a message tight and how to disclaim the fringe.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
they need the fringe for population count   i guess the dems example slips by em

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
As I've said:

They've build a springboard. They raised a whole lot of money - RP has four times more money left over from his campaign than any big L libertarian has ever raised in any Presidential race.

If they can get their people into precinct comittees and caucuses across the country, then that's going to be the beginning of a wonderful friendship.

As someone who still gets the emails, I can assure you, this is exactly what they have been trying to do.  Ron Paul himself will not run again.  His movement is definitely still going, like you said, at the precinct level.  The RP supporters are not dumb, they may be a little bit crazy, but they know the rules, and will do anything to get a Paulitician elected. 

I think the reason for the unpopularity was the desperation with which the RP supporters conducted themselves.  Everything had to be over the top, to get the attention of the media, so many times on the RP forums, did I hear "All coverage is good coverage, and I'd cringe as someone would relate in internet ebonics how they had just debated with an "idiot" (their view not mine) democrat. 

I think the RP movement mostly caused it's own failure, by wearing the wookie suits and throwing snowballs at Sean Hannity.  People are not going to vote for a candidate because a mob with pitchforks and torches says that they should.  That said, these were the rabid RP supporters, not all of us were/are like that. 

There are many Most RP supporters are normal.  It's just the idiots in the wookie suits that screw it up for the rest of us.  Although, I don't really blame the guy in the wookie suit, it sucks to be marginalized by the media.  This election has been very much dictated by the media, which is very scary. 
In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

freakazoid

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What is this thing about someone in a Wookie costume? I have heard it referenced before, and HTG has it as his avatar.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Perd Hapley

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
All the real, dedicated Ron Paul supporters wear the Wookie, donchaknow?   laugh

Other than my Dad, who has no idea what a Wookie is. 
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

MicroBalrog

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What is this thing about someone in a Wookie costume? I have heard it referenced before, and HTG has it as his avatar.

Search "Ridley Report" on the Youtube.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What is this thing about someone in a Wookie costume? I have heard it referenced before, and HTG has it as his avatar.

It's one of the publicity stunts they pulled here. Standing by the road in a wookie costume with Ron Paul signs, because they were pretending to be the rebels against the Bush empire or something, I don't know.

They showed it on the news here, the anchors were laughing their asses off, and the whole thing kind of stuck. I think one of the late night shows picked on it as well. Don't know.

Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What is this thing about someone in a Wookie costume? I have heard it referenced before, and HTG has it as his avatar.

Search "Ridley Report" on the Youtube.

Ugh. That guy is persona non grata here.

He's an egotist who keeps trying to get in trouble. After his last stunt, "deliberately defying a curfew on parks" meant to keep addicts from doing their thing at 3am and leaving needles around, the paper was full of "GO HOME" and "GO BACK TO TEXAS", people furious that he'd wasted police presence to babysit his tantrum, when those police should have been elsewhere doing needed police things.

That is precisely what I mean about bad PR. The local image of Free Staters and libertarians in general is that clown who keeps confronting the cops and mugging for the camera. If he wanted to "free" something, he'd go do it in Boston. But that would be a challenge. It's easier to hassle and cause scenes and annoy the people here for his own personal ego whatevers. And it's made people downright angry.

Oh, yeah. Ridley almost caused a bar owner to lose his liquor license because he filmed one of his shows outside said bar, with a bunch of people open-carrying while drinking and showing off their guns. The bar owner didn't know. The video ended up on WMUR news. The liquor board sent investigators, and the bar owner almost lost their business.

Libertarians need to throw that kind of clown out on their ass and put out a Not Welcome sign, or they're going nowhere.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What is this thing about someone in a Wookie costume? I have heard it referenced before, and HTG has it as his avatar.
It was a somewhat common theme among the Paul supporters to portray themselves as the rebels in Star Wars, fighting agaisnt the evil Imperial whatever.

It went so far that some of them donned Star Wars costumes.  I found a picture of one such Paulian costume wearer.  It made me laugh.  Hard.  So I snitched it and made it my avatar.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/patternfilms/2179173334/

MicroBalrog

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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

freakazoid

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Oh noes. People being actually active in there beliefs.  rolleyes

Quote
After his last stunt, "deliberately defying a curfew on parks" meant to keep addicts from doing their thing at 3am and leaving needles around,

Good for him.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
"Being active in your beliefs" is only as good or as bad as your beliefs themselves are.  Being active in stupid beliefs is no good at all.  Sounds like that's what this guy was doing.

MicroBalrog

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
"Being active in your beliefs" is only as good or as bad as your beliefs themselves are.  Being active in stupid beliefs is no good at all.  Sounds like that's what this guy was doing.

Opposing curfews is now stupid?

Nevertheless, I disagree with your notion. I believe in a healthy civil society, people are active for all sorts of beliefs, even those I disagree with, and that is a GOOD THING, unless of course we're talking about some unspeakably evil stuff like Neo-Nazism.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
After his last stunt, "deliberately defying a curfew on parks" meant to keep addicts from doing their thing at 3am and leaving needles around,

That's not a curfew.  Most parks I've seen are closed from dusk to dawn.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
After his last stunt, "deliberately defying a curfew on parks" meant to keep addicts from doing their thing at 3am and leaving needles around,

That's not a curfew.  Most parks I've seen are closed from dusk to dawn.

That's what I'd meant, yes. The parks are closed from something like 9pm to 6am because the only thing going on in the middle of the night was stuff like the occasional drug deal or prostitution, or kids breaking stuff. The citizens actually ASKED for that.

But that didn't matter to the carpetbaggers who decided that NH citizens didn't know what was best for them, and needed to be "freed" of what they voted for.

See the problem? They don't even realize they act like nanny state liberals. And I see that from libertarians on a national level, their version of liberal elitism. An attitude that Americans are too stupid to understand freedom and need to be "freed", regardless of what they decided themselves, what they like, any of that. 

That does not win friends.

MicroBalrog

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
It's interesting that you think that nobody should oppose a law that the majority of a population in a given state has voted for.

You think the NRA are being a bunch of carpetbaggers for opposing Prop H, too?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
The anarchist libertarians need to learn that many laws are beneficial.  There are some bad ones, certainly, but most of them are pretty good.  Opposing all laws on principal, without giving any thought to the actual law itself, is foolish.

That's one of several things the libertarians are going to have to figure out if they want to become a major player in American politics.  Most American voters want sensible laws that keep their community clean, safe, and livable.  That's why we have government in the first place.

Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
It's interesting that you think that nobody should oppose a law that the majority of a population in a given state has voted for.

You think the NRA are being a bunch of carpetbaggers for opposing Prop H, too?

Apples and oranges.

By the way, I poked about on one of the libertarian boards here.

Someone among them posted warning them not to back the violent tax protesters who threatened to kill law enforcement agents' families, the guy who was screaming "show me the law" with bombs and guns all over until the Marshals arrested him. That it would destroy them in the public eye if they backed someone who "threatened to kill people as long as he can remember".

He was shouted down.

Thus goes the movement. Don't know what battles to choose and which are downright stupid. So it won't go anywhere.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
shame too there aree some geuinely decent concepts and some decent folks  just well hidden amongst the folks who won't take their meds and the undiagnosed

MicroBalrog

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
Apples and oranges.

From the viewpoint of your ideology.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
Apples and oranges.

From the viewpoint of your ideology.

Which is one of the two major parties.

Suit yourself. Until the libertarians get some sense of how to exclude fringe elements, how to unify a message, and in a sense, how to grow up, they will be only one thing.

Irrelevant.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: The New Libertarian Century [reposted]
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
2 things! you forgot amusing in a charlie chaplin way