Author Topic: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders  (Read 14754 times)

damien

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Over at THR I posted this some time ago.

Most cops are good guys. Of course, sometimes, a story like this comes along:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/20/diabteic_tasering/

My thought is that with all the microelectronics we have today with IPODs that have 80GB drives and weight a few ounces, we should just require that all law enforcement wear personal recorders that record video and audio. They would be inserted in their shirt pocket and have the recording part overlap the top of the pocked, like a pocket protector. The video/audio/GPS information would be stored on a high capacity SD card. If the card goes missing, the cop gets fired. Soon broadband wireless will be available where the video could be sent back to the cop shop immediately.

It would protect good cops from false accusations. It would identify bad cops immediately. When broadband kicks in, supervisors at the cop shop could see what is going down and provide supervision. I think we should implement this immediately.

The technology is cheap. This would cost less to manufacture than the cost of the cop's gun or vest.

Now a story like this comes along:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/1153403,frame091008.article

At first, I thought cops should have to wear these evidence-gathering devices only while on duty.  Now I am leaning towards forcing all people employed in law enforcement to wear them all the time, to prevent cops from planting evidence while off duty as well. 

Fjolnirsson

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
[quoteAt first, I thought cops should have to wear these evidence-gathering devices only while on duty.  Now I am leaning towards forcing all people employed in law enforcement to wear them all the time, to prevent cops from planting evidence while off duty as well. [/quote]

While I have no problem with a police force requiring audio and/or video of each officer's shift(hell the cops I know and like are in favor of it), what makes you think you have the right to violate their privacy? All the time? While bathing, taking a [blank] or [edited] their spouses, as well? How about while bathing their children?
No. Unallowable intrusion into personal life, and it puts the camels nose under the tent for the rest of us.
Hi.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
nice first post...
we have a story in a british paper as a source on a texas incident? where a cop shows up is let in the 6 others kick the door in?! i can't assess the incident but the story blows.

your second story is "less than conclusive" as well. and i'm being very kind

ilbob

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
i am generally in favor of recording police activity so that there is less of a question about what actually happened in confusing incidents. it can help protect good cops and innocent citizens from false accusations. there is no real downside except to those who engage in misconduct as the cost is very low.

i am not so sure you want to record off duty, but it is fair to note that cops claim to be on duty 24/7. while we all know that is so much hokum, it does raise an interesting question about just how far off duty incidents should matter. if they are on duty 24/7, then it is no different being involved in an off duty DUI than an on duty DUI.
bob

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damien

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
your second story is "less than conclusive" as well. and i'm being very kind

The cop in the second story has been removed from duty without pay.  Do you have any idea what it takes to remove a cop without pay in Chicago?  It happens about once a year, it is so rare.  This means 1) the Chicago police leadership knows that he is guilty and 2) there is nothing they can do at this point to cover it up.  I don't see much weakness in the second story.  A Chicago cop was planting drugs and then lying about it in his testimony (speaking in his favor, at least he wasn't torturing prisoners like fellow police officer Jon Burge).  Why would this be so difficult to believe?  The surprise is that he was actually caught this time instead of the hundreds of times he probably got away with it.

It sort of sounds like this officer learned a lot from Jon Burge.  Here's a little about him, if you missed this story:

Chicago Police Commander Jon Graham Burge (born December 20, 1947) is a former Chicago Police Department detective and decorated United States Army soldier who has gained notoriety for allegedly torturing more than 200 criminal suspects between 1972 and 1991, in order to force confessions. He served tours in South Korea and in the Vietnam War after extensive training that began in Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps and continued as an enlisted United States Army Reserve soldier where he was trained for and served in the military police. He then returned to the South Side of Chicago and began his career as a Police officer. He rose through the ranks in units that seemed to solve every case they handled. Various allegations arose about the methodologies of Burge and those under his command. Eventually, the weight of hundreds of similar stories caused Illinois Governor George Ryan to declare a moratorium on death penalty executions in Illinois in 2000 and clear the state's death row in 2003.

The most controversial arrests began in February 1982 at a time when a series of shootings of Chicago law enforcement officials caused a turbulent time in Police Area 2 whose detective squad Burge commanded. Some of the people who confessed to murder were later granted new trials, and a few were even acquitted or pardoned. Burge was acquitted of police brutality charges in 1989 after a first trial resulted in a hung jury. As a result of an internal Police Department review and hearing, Burge was suspended from the Chicago Police Department in 1991 and fired in 1993. Having never been convicted of a felony, Burge lives in Florida and continues to receive a police pension to which he is entitled under Illinois state law.

In 2002, a special prosecutor began investigating the accusations. The review, which cost $17 million, revealed improprieties that resulted in no action due to the statute of limitations. After Burge was fired, there was a groundswell of support to investigate his convictions. Several were reversed, remanded or overturned. Several of those sent to death row as a result of Burge's work, were granted reduced sentences of some form. In fact, all Illinois death row inmates were. Four of Burge's victims were pardoned by then-Governor George Ryan and subsequently filed suit in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois against the City of Chicago, various police officers, Cook County and various State's Attorneys. The parties consented to have the four cases consolidated and a settlement of $19.8 million dollars was reached in December 2007 with the "city defendants". The cases against Cook County and the other current/former county prosecutors continue as of July 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge

The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
miss this?

" Plewa also ordered Plewa not to have any firearms, which automatically places him on no-pay status with the Police Department "


your link i thought you read it before jerk of knee

The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
the stuff thatr you cut and pasted about the other cop relates to this cop how?

Matthew Carberry

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Setting aside the conflict-causing anecdotes, I don't think there'd be a huge outcry around here to require all officer/non-officer official contacts, at the least, be mandatorally recorded by audio and video.  Obviously in some form of tamper-resistant method. 

When you go off shift or book someone, the recording of that on-duty period is stored for reference later (in case of complaint), or for use during the investigation in the case of an actual arrest.

If you book someone for something without the recording, or if it conveniently stops prior to the handoff of the suspect, there would be further inquiries made.

If an incident that results in a complaint can be corroberated to have occurred, and the recording is missing, there would be an investigation.

In a way though, this would be worse for the many people that cops exercise discretion with, as it would provide evidence for "equal protection violations" on grounds that may not be valid in context.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
the recorders would mean no more "breaks" from any cops. lots more folks getting jammed for chicken manure

Matthew Carberry

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
the recorders would mean no more "breaks" from any cops. lots more folks getting jammed for chicken manure

That'd be the unintended consequence.  There's a trade-off for everything.

Being the kind of person who statistically would get the break, I should recuse myself from voting.

On the other, other, hand, if enough "upstanding, law-abiding" folks (who tend to get the breaks) go down on chicken manure beefs and wish they hadn't, they might get the chicken manure stricken from the books.

mmmm, chicken manure beef sand wishes

 grin

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"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Sindawe

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
It would protect good cops from false accusations. It would identify bad cops immediately. When broadband kicks in, supervisors at the cop shop could see what is going down and provide supervision. I think we should implement this immediately.

Works for me.  I'd also like to see the video/audio feed steamed to an uninterested third party for archiving, sorta a fair witness in the Heinleinian sence.

Quote
Fair Witnesses are a legal institution created to provide impartial and accurate observation of potentially contentious legal situations.
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mfree

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
No, the right way to do this would be to extend the Miranda statues so that any arrest must have an accompanying audio or video recording. No recording, same as not having read the rights, case is bust.

ilbob

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
the recorders would mean no more "breaks" from any cops. lots more folks getting jammed for chicken manure
I kind of doubt it. Most of the time cops are lenient not because of their own practices but because of the practices of the department they work for. That would not change much.

There was an article in the paper here recently about the odds of getting a ticket when stopped. One department gave out tickets almost 90% of the time they stopped someone. Other departments in the area were closer to 50%. It could be that the 90% department is less inclined toward BS stops in the first place, so only make stops that are for more serious infractions. That wouldn't surprise me a whole lot. They are a pretty decent department, and some of the other departments with lower ticket rates are less decent.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
a cop would be a fool to do anything other than strictly toe the line if he knew that his every move was subject to review by some pinhead. a perusal of some of the posts on here could illustrate why fairly well.  i've seen cops steer folks in the right direction while they are still rattled from an incident as well as been cut huge slack in my time.

MicroBalrog

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
a cop would be a fool to do anything other than strictly toe the line if he knew that his every move was subject to review by some pinhead.

Which is why this is a great idea.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
thank you for illustrating the point

taurusowner

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
I think recorders on duty is a great idea.  And recording while off duty is an equally terrible idea.  Just because one chooses to become a police officer does not mean they cede their Rights or life over to you or the public.  I'll be a civilian cop myself soon, and when I get into my POV at night, I'm on my time.  Not yours.  Yeah I may feel more duty bound to stop a robbery at the 7-11 on the way home than your average joe, but that doesn't mean my whole life is to be displayed for anyone to see.


Anyone who's worked before should be familiar with "Reg Nazis" or people who feel it is their life's work to follow every single rule and make sure everyone around them does the same.  Of courses there are positives to following rules.  Duh.  That's why they are rules.  I'm not promoting the idea of police making up laws on the spot or anything malicious.  But you get the bad with the good.  Instead of getting pulled over for going 7mph over the limit and getting a talking to about not doing it again, you'll get a ticket for it every time...and a ticket for that crack in your windshield, a ticket for not signaling while tuning, a ticket for changing lanes while in an intersection, and a ticket for not turning into the closest lane while  making a turn....at the same time, every time you get pulled over.  Since everything is on video, and no cop wants to lose his job for fear of showing even the minor amount of favoritism, even if it's not really favoritism and is really just him not being a [deleted]; be prepared to be cited for every little thing the camera may catch.  Even the laws most people think don't think about like having a cracked windshield or failure to signal.

Most places of business have the way that really works, and the "boss/inspector is watching" way.  Be prepared for the "boss/inspector is watching" way all the time.

Again, I think recorders on duty is a great idea with many benefits.  Just be prepared to take the bad with the good.  All those times you got pulled over and didn't get even one ticket much less a few, well those times would be over.

[edited for language]

MicroBalrog

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
Just because one chooses to become a police officer does not mean they cede their Rights or life over to you or the public.

Isn't that how it works in the military?

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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taurusowner

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Police are not military.  And of any agency, military or civilian passed some reg requiring an agent/officers life to be recorded 24/7, you'd see A LOT less people joining.

I'm pretty sure less soldiers and less police are not what we either want or need.  Yes I am away some of the tin foil hat crowd will say they want less police.  But they are only saying that while calmly sitting in their basements on the computer while police are hassling those who would break in and steal said computer.  It's easy to say you hate police/want less police.  It's much harder to live somewhere where there are no police.

And even in the US military, while there may be some reg buried in the depth of the Pentagon that allows them to do so, it's not SOP to record military personal taking a ####, banging their wife, or bathing their children while off duty.

MicroBalrog

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
It's easy to say you hate police/want less police.  It's much harder to live somewhere where there are no police.

1. Hating police and wanting less police is not the same thing.

2. Having less police and living in a Hobbesian anarchy is not the same thing.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

taurusowner

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
I didn't say they were the same thing.

I stated that requiring police to have their personal lives recorded would mean a lot less people would volunteer to be police.  And this being the site it is and sister site of THR, I anticipated responses saying "good, I want less police".

And I am saying, no, you really don't want less police.  Even if you think you do.

MicroBalrog

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Having less police is perhaps useful in those areas of the world where police are known for utilizing very brutal tactics against nonviolent/victimless 'criminals' and protesters, rather than chasing real crooks.

Perhaps in some areas of Russia, where the police are very often ignoring violent criminals outright to go after draft dodgers, opposition protesters, or weed-growing grandmothers, that'd be a good idea.

Naturally, not in inner-city America.

Now, I do question the need to have a SWAT team in every 200-man population town...
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taurusowner

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Well I can't speak to that.  I don't, have not, and probably will not speak for or to the rest of the world when discussing things like this.  I live in America, so all of my responses are in the context of being in America.

Gewehr98

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
I'll be a civilian cop myself soon,

But that's redundant. 

Since all cops ARE civilians, as I reminded my fellow sheriff's deputies on more than one occasion.  They needed reminding, and often.

The only time I never considered myself civilian was during my 20 years and 2 months' worth of USAF active duty.

Unless you're drawing a check from the Department of Defense, you're a civilian - period. You may personally declaring war on the populace, but your marching orders ain't coming from the Pentagon, trust me.

As for mandating video/audio recorders, say goodbye to officer discretion in letting an infraction slide.  If it's on tape, a ticket will be issued forthwith. Any self-respecting police officer would be foolish to do otherwise.

Even with my law-enforcement background, I don't believe the answer is MORE cops, either. 
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taurusowner

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Re: All Police Should Be Required By Law To Wear Personal Recorders
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Seeing as I'm an MP now, it's not redundant.  Thanks.