Author Topic: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement  (Read 16298 times)

qdemn7

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Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« on: September 18, 2008, 01:47:06 AM »
From Military.com

Quote
In a move that could reverse years of Army small arms policy, the service is asking industry to send in ideas for a new combat rifle that could replace the M4 carbine.

In late August, the Army issued a solicitation to the arms industry asking companies to submit proposals that would demonstrate "improvements in individual weapon performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion ... reliability and durability in all environments, modularity and terminal performance."

And in a dramatic gesture that could throw the door wide open to a totally new carbine, the service did not constrain ideas to the current 5.56mm round used in the M4.

At last, someone in the Army bureaucracy finally had gained some sense (or maybe had it knocked into their head). What would be the height of irony is if they choose the 6.8mm SPC as the new standard cartridge after rejecting it 60 years ago, so to speak as the .280 British. At the time the .280 British was considered "too weak". "Too weak" being code words for Army's NIH attitude.

Of course they could always choose the 6.5mm Grendel.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 02:17:38 AM »
I was going to ask if we hadn't heard all this before, but the article does point out a few things that I haven't heard before.
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MechAg94

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 04:19:57 AM »
"accuracy and dispersion"
Wouldn't those tend to be mutually exclusive?
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Firethorn

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 04:22:34 AM »
I was going to ask if we hadn't heard all this before, but the article does point out a few things that I haven't heard before.

It's at least the fifth time I've heard about the military considering something new.  The rest have fizzled out, I'm not holding my breath for this one.

Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 04:40:00 AM »
Rest of the world has gone to gas piston for reliability.

This is one time where the rest of the world is right.

At least change the UPPER to gas piston and keep the lower if you wanna keep all the logistics and mags and stuff...

And as for caliber, in urban fighting with cinderblock walls, yeah, it's advantage AK. Just look at video of a 7.62x39 vs a 5.56x45 against a cinder block. One lets you have cover, the other doesn't.

Ryan in Maine

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 04:44:39 AM »
What ever happened to Magpul's Masada rifle? I thought that sounded like a winner right there.

Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 04:46:57 AM »
What ever happened to Magpul's Masada rifle? I thought that sounded like a winner right there.

Bushmaster bought it, ditched the name and called it the ACR instead.

Either they get it right, or they re-engineer it to be cheaper and end up with another M17.

AJ Dual

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 04:50:44 AM »
What ever happened to Magpul's Masada rifle? I thought that sounded like a winner right there.

It's getting produced by Bushmaster as thier ACR, advanced combat rifle, for civilian and LE sales. Probably with a hope it could someday be the M4's replacment.

However, I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" crowd too. The DoD has been running these tests and trials forever, with the caseless HK G11, Flechette rifles from AAI, Steyr, and Colt, wacky duplex rounds, all sorts of stuff.

The M4/M-16 is not perfect. OTOH it's adequate, and when the bean-counters look up an honest accounting of the real shortcomings of the caliber and platform, and then balance that out against the logistical pain to the entire military of replacing them all, the M-16 family just keeps on trucking.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 04:52:47 AM »
This is why I wonder why they don't just switch uppers.

Keep the lowers. Keep the mags. Keep everything else.

Just stop making direct impingement uppers and replace them with gas piston as they wear out, with training on the new operating system and fieldstripping. They're not that complicated.

MechAg94

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 04:59:10 AM »
Is the direct impingement the only part of the rifle that is causing problems?  I seem to have read stuff that said that is not the case.  I thought I heard someone comment on sand sticking in around the locking lugs of the bolt.  A gas piston only won't suddenly make the chamber shiny and clean. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 05:39:27 AM »
Is the direct impingement the only part of the rifle that is causing problems?  I seem to have read stuff that said that is not the case.  I thought I heard someone comment on sand sticking in around the locking lugs of the bolt.  A gas piston only won't suddenly make the chamber shiny and clean. 

That is another weakness of the system.

The AR-style bolt has (what, eight?) lugs on it. This has some advantages, it creates a very quick and short unlocking rotation which has ramifications all the way up and down the gas and fire control system. Remember that the original intent of the AR design was absolute lightest marching weight while still being well balanced with capacity-firepower and lethality. It also allows for even distribution of bolt thrust during firing, which means you can get away with much lighter parts, and facilitated the then revolutionary barrel extension chamber, which in turn allows for the aluminum non-stressed receiver that only need act as a guide-way for the moving parts.

OTOH, the multi-lugged bolt increased surface area and the complex topology increases exponentially the area for fouling and debris to gum up the action, and the leverage that fouling has to negatively impact cycling of the rifle.

One thing that occurs to me with the 'Just swap the uppers' philosophy of a more incremental design change to the AR, perhaps including a 6.8 or 6.5mm caliber change too, is that then the buffer tube is absolutely wasted space. A gas-piston upper can incorporate the recoil spring into the upper, which then allows for a true folding stock. The collapsing/telescoping stock the AR buffer tube originally forced as a compromise, is now well-liked because it allows for ergonomic adjustment to fit different statured soldiers, and account for the extra thickness of gear or body armor.

However, I see no problem making an adjustable AND folding stock.
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MechAg94

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 05:50:50 AM »
Okay, thanks for that explanation.  I thought I had heard the bolt was a major issue with the sand over there. 

I guess there is a lot of focus on the direct impingement system which is way back behind the bolt.  I just can't see how that is the source of all the problems.  You chamber will get dirty every time it is fired regardless of the system.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 05:56:16 AM »
Okay, thanks for that explanation.  I thought I had heard the bolt was a major issue with the sand over there. 

I guess there is a lot of focus on the direct impingement system which is way back behind the bolt.  I just can't see how that is the source of all the problems.  You chamber will get dirty every time it is fired regardless of the system.

No, not really. Direct impingement blows all the carbon and crap back and onto the bolt. Piston systems are MUCH cleaner to run and easier to clean!

That's always been the criticism of the direct impingement system. It was meant to save the weight of a piston, but it "sh_ts where it eats".

MechAg94

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 06:13:26 AM »
All rifles get dirty and belch gases back into the chamber when the bolt unlocks.  I haven't noticed my AR getting any dirtier at the bolt than any of my others.  If I have had any issues with my AR, it is at the bolt.  Personally, I think that is just the issue that gets the most attention, not the one that is most important. 

But, it is probably like a AR vs AK discussion.  Opinions vary.  Cheesy
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Firethorn

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 06:24:53 AM »
Okay, thanks for that explanation.  I thought I had heard the bolt was a major issue with the sand over there. 

Small finicky parts show detrimental operation far sooner than bigger looser tolerance parts such as the AK series.  And by 'loose tolerance' I mean by design - the weapon is designed to operate properly in a fairly wide range, for a rifle.  It does make sacrifices for that, though.

As for dirt and such, there's differences between powders(the military switched to a cleaner burning version a while back), and being dropped in the mud or exposed to sand.

Boomhauer

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2008, 06:27:19 AM »
Okay, thanks for that explanation.  I thought I had heard the bolt was a major issue with the sand over there. 

Small finicky parts show detrimental operation far sooner than bigger looser tolerance parts such as the AK series.  And by 'loose tolerance' I mean by design - the weapon is designed to operate properly in a fairly wide range, for a rifle.  It does make sacrifices for that, though.

As for dirt and such, there's differences between powders(the military switched to a cleaner burning version a while back), and being dropped in the mud or exposed to sand.

Looser clearance, not looser tolerance...Clearances between operating parts.

The AK sacrifices accuracy for greater reliability. However, a properly built AK will still have practical accuracy for infantry use.



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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 07:11:23 AM »
"accuracy and dispersion"
Wouldn't those tend to be mutually exclusive?

Actually, they are kinda the same thing...or reciprocal, but not exclusive.



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seeker_two

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2008, 07:23:55 AM »
Wanna bet this is is another try to get an FN-2000-type bullpup adopted?


...which I'd be for if they could do one in .243Win or .260Rem....  cool
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Modifiedbrowning

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2008, 11:33:17 AM »
All they have to do is bring back the AR-18 in 6.8. Most modern Western piston rifles are based off the AR-18 design anyway. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 05:10:26 PM »
All they have to do is bring back the AR-18 in 6.8. Most modern Western piston rifles are based off the AR-18 design anyway. 
I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Antibubba

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 08:07:27 PM »
Quote
                                                                       
I was going to ask if we hadn't heard all this before, but the article does point out a few things that I haven't heard before.

Like what?


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yesitsloaded

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 09:07:57 PM »
I think we should look to the Deawoo as how to do it right. Folding stock, piston, and the thing even takes AR mags.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2008, 10:56:18 PM »
I think we should look to the Deawoo as how to do it right. Folding stock, piston, and the thing even takes AR mags.

I am very impressed with the engineering of mine. It's like they actually sat down and determined what was best about the AK and AR designs and took all the good parts. Without the interjection of any "I have a GREAT idea, no, really, this is new, it's my idea, we're going to do it anyway" egotism that screws stuff up.

thebaldguy

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 04:33:36 PM »
I wondered about the 6.8 MM round; why is it that the wheel needs to be reinvented? I know the cartridge is supposedly based on the old .30 Remington cartridge. There are lots of good cartridges out there such as the .243/.270 Winchester, .25-06, .280 Remington, etc. Why not use an existing cartridge and a new rifle based on the M-16 design?

Oh, that's right. It's just tax dollars being wasted. It's not like it's REAL money.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 08:10:07 PM »
I thought the purpose of the 6.8 was that it fit the existing magazines.  No? 
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