Author Topic: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement  (Read 16299 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2008, 08:13:22 PM »
Not just magazines, but bolt faces too.  I think.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 08:59:34 PM »
So they just change the barrels for the 6.8? 
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Iain

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2008, 10:55:13 PM »
I wondered about the 6.8 MM round; why is it that the wheel needs to be reinvented? I know the cartridge is supposedly based on the old .30 Remington cartridge. There are lots of good cartridges out there such as the .243/.270 Winchester, .25-06, .280 Remington, etc. Why not use an existing cartridge and a new rifle based on the M-16 design?

Oh, that's right. It's just tax dollars being wasted. It's not like it's REAL money.

My limited understanding agrees with fistful's necessarily very limited understanding.

The other factor is the size and weight of the ammunition. The .243 and .270 are based on the .30-06 and the .308 (can't remember which way round, or even if that is absolutely accurate) so they are substantially bigger than 5.56 reducing the amount that can be carried, I suppose to the point that no more .243 can be carried than .308 could be.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2008, 03:26:57 AM »
Quote
I thought the purpose of the 6.8 was that it fit the existing magazines.  No?

6.8 fits the overall length of the AR magwell.

I don't know why ya'll are getting so giddy about this. Wait until the politics get involved...as they always do when selecting new equipment. We could end up with something that is worse than the AR (like the XM-8)...

And there is also the "we don't want it if it wasn't invented here" syndrome.



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K Frame

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2008, 03:41:39 AM »
If they would only see the error of their ways and go back to Trapdoor Springfields in .50-70, everything would be perfectly right with the world again.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2008, 04:21:03 AM »
Mike, are you on crack?  There's no way a Trapdoor Springfield is going to fit in an AR magazine. 

My limited understanding agrees with fistful's necessarily very limited understanding.

Nice jab.   smiley

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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2008, 04:23:39 AM »
Mike, are you on crack?  There's no way a Trapdoor Springfield is going to fit in an AR magazine. 

But you could fit the M4 inside the buttstock trap of the Springfield. As a spare.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2008, 04:25:07 AM »
That's how I roll.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2008, 04:27:02 AM »

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 04:29:28 AM »


HOLY.................


What the [censored] *IS* that thing?Huh?Huh??
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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2008, 04:33:32 AM »

Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2008, 04:36:14 AM »


HOLY.................


What the [censored] *IS* that thing?Huh?Huh??

Yeah, it's a punt gun. They were secured bow to stern on a punt or a canoe or other boat, and used to take down an entire flock of geese or other birds at once with several pounds of powder and shot, for commercial market hunting. That's how people brought a whole bunch of birds to market.

That's the general reaction when someone brings one out now, though. There's YouTube videos of people firing one. It pushes the boat backwards.

freedom lover

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2008, 08:55:29 AM »
If the Army wants something more reliable in all conditions than someone can probably develop a rifle with a blowback operated system.

Take a lever delayed (from the FAMAS) or roller delayed (from the G3) action, tweak it, put it in an ergonomic stamped steel and polymer shell that can be equipped with current optics/accessories and good sights, make it use AR mags until the new caliber is adopted, give it a SCAR charging handle and buttstock, a quality barrel, and get it under 9lbs and you'll have a very reliable infantry rifle. Hopefully the accuracy would be decent enough for battlefield use and the rifle cheap. 

An operator probably would'nt be able to convert the barrel length and caliber to another in the field unless alot of work was done to the design, but it could probably be done at the armory (if the barrels were free floated and most of the internals came welded together), but at least the different versions would  all use the same basic, mass produced shell.

One other thing. This design would probably would'nt be accurate enough for a DMR.

Mabs2

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2008, 09:05:02 AM »
I know I was really liking the Masada when they were talking about it...so far it doesn't look like Bushmaster has ruined it.  I wonder if that'd be much of an improvement over the M4.  I think the only thing it really has over it is the gas piston and the nice looking controls.  I really don't see the point in the modular construction.
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »
Other than a barrel swap or caliber change in seconds?
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MechAg94

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2008, 10:12:11 AM »
Yeah, there is some value in being able to fire different calibers and such and still have the same hand grip, trigger, and other controls. 
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Mabs2

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2008, 02:44:45 PM »
Other than a barrel swap or caliber change in seconds?
Yea besides that.  I dig changing calibers easy.  Like buying a .223 and when they come out with the 6.8 barrels just swap them.
But as far as "you can turn this dedicated CQB rifle into a precision rifle in seconds" I don't get it.  Just buy two rifles, imo.
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De Selby

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2008, 04:07:38 PM »
The AR platform is the easiest rifle to shoot accurately I've ever come across.  It points well, the sights are good, and the thing is just plain...accurate. 

I think if they're lucky, the best thing the .gov folks will get out of a new project to replace the M16 series guns is...something that is nearly as good as the M16.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2008, 04:31:25 PM »
The AR platform is the easiest rifle to shoot accurately I've ever come across.  It points well, the sights are good, and the thing is just plain...accurate. 

I think if they're lucky, the best thing the .gov folks will get out of a new project to replace the M16 series guns is...something that is nearly as good as the M16.

You need to shoot more rifles, then.

And "accurate at 300 yards" means less when someone is fighting someone right there, when the thing jams up because talcum powder sand is blowing.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2008, 05:07:46 PM »
I ran the weapons check in at the last ROTC shoot and we had weapons malfing within 200 rounds. Well used Colt m16a4s. Bolts getting sticky and a few FTEs.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2008, 05:17:18 PM »
Quote
I ran the weapons check in at the last ROTC shoot and we had weapons malfing within 200 rounds. Well used Colt m16a4s. Bolts getting sticky and a few FTEs.

Tell us more...

Lube type? Standard CLP?

Running wet, minimum lube, or dry?

Ammo type? Running a .22 conversion kit, standard ammo, blanks, or training rounds (if ya'll even use those...)?

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yesitsloaded

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2008, 05:45:48 PM »
Green tip. CLP. Supposedly running minimum but the one that malfed worse seemed to be dry. They were Nat. Guard guns. I had to clean one for two hours before the master sarge let us put it back on the rack. Gas tube area was caked up to the point we had to get a dental pick to get the fouling out. Had somewhere around 400 rounds through it  assuming it was clean when we got it.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2008, 05:50:06 PM »
WHY are you running 'em with minimal lube? The AR ideally should be run wet as possible. That is more than likely the reason ya'lls rifles were choking.

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Lubrication and Cleaning

There are a great number of myths that surround the AR platform, and many of these have taken on the status of Urban Myths. One very prominent myth is that the gun runs better dry. The AR series runs significantly better wet than dry, but there are those that approach this with such great trepidation that they steadfastly refuse to use only a very tiny bit of lube on their carbines, causing them to cease functioning after a very short while.

Hundreds of e- net posts speak of using little lube on the carbines, believing that too much lube be the cause of all problems. A friend, a retired Marine MSgt and a prolific Class 3 collector, looks at lube like it was 2 day old cat urine, and is absolutely phobic about putting anything more than a drop or two on any gun. Our experience is that after poor magazines and operator induced malfunctions, dry guns are a major cause of stoppages. We see this in every class we have ever attended or taught, and we are satisfied that our observations regarding lubrication are correct.

Consider that your carbine is a machine, and like an internal combustion engine, it requires lubrication to make it function. There are certain wear points in the gun that need attention, and failure to do so can cause a stoppage. A good rule of thumb is to look for shiny marks, which indicates metal to metal contact. If it shines, get it wet.

This is the cleaning protocol that I use. This isnt the way, but rather A way. I dont pretend to know everything, and I wind up learning something new about every day. Not using what is listed below wont necessarily get you killed, make you unattractive to a potential mate, nor make you unpopular at the local gin mill.

I fired the M4 carbine for the first time at the old Firepower Branch at Quantico in 1986. The Army wasnt doing anything with the project and gave a small number (I believe seven or eight) to (then) Maj. Jack Muth, the OIC at the time. The nomenclature was XM-4, and they were marked as M16A2s, but the genesis was there. We put a great number of rounds through those guns, and I have shot a lot more since then. I have learned a lot since then, and will continue to do so.

Remove the bolt from the bolt carrier. Turn the bolt carrier over and observe the shiny area on the bottom. This is a wear point. The slot that the bolt cam pin rides in is another wear point, as is the chromed hole in the bolt carrier that the bolt rides in. The entire bolt carrier can use a coat of lube, but pay particular attention to those areas. The military also states that a drop down the bolt carrier gas key is required. The bolt itself requires a coating of oil, paying particular attention to the bolt rings and the lugs. Those bolt rings function just like the piston rings in your car engine. How long do you think your ride would last without lube?? A properly cleaned and lubed carbine should go at a minimum of 500 rounds to 1000 rounds without any cleaning at all. However, using a suppressor will cut that number down drastically, as will firing multiple rapid fire strings or firing with the selector switch on Group Therapy. I advise shooters that during the chow break they should place a few drops of oil into those two gas ports on the right side of the bolt carrier. The lube will get into the gas rings located handily nearby and keep your gun running smoothly.

Finally, a few drops of oil into the underside of the charging handle is not a bad thing.
The AR system runs much better wet then dry, and we see that during every class. Understand that it is not the amount of lube used, but also the placement of the lube. At one class a very experienced shooter was having functioning problems. He pulled back on the charging handle to show me that the bolt was wet, but when he released the CH I could see that the area on the BC adjacent to the gas holes was dry. I placed two drops of Slip 2000 into those holes and the gun ran fine.

The moral of this story is not just to put lube on, but put it on in the right places. Keep in mind that when at class and shooting 400-1000 rounds per day, the bolt will get blown dry. Adding oil during break time will keep the gun running and keep you learning new skill sets instead of becoming frustrated with a constantly malfunctioning gun.

In the 90s I worked for another government agency that had a large budget. We had a fair number of guns and a lot of ammunition, so on the down days I had the opportunity to play and run some informal tests. While the exact results have been lost to the ages, some salient points remain embedded in my brain housing group. A totally dry gun will run approximately 100-200rds before seeing problems. A clean but properly lubed gun in good condition should go from 500 minimum to 1000 maximum.

More lube is not necessarily bad. I submerged the bolt and bolt carrier assembly into a bucket of oil, shook it off and placed it into the carbine. It ran like a clock though I only had enough time to fire off 4 mags worth of M855 through it.

I have used every type of lube imaginable, going from WD-40 (especially good when you have a dirty gun), 3 in 1 oil, suntan lotion, butter to Vagisil- dont laugh, it works. I may not want to use any of them for the long haul, but for a quick fix it beats having a non functioning gun.


The type of lube you use is something else that is full of mythology and sprinkled with fact. While the military uses CLP that PM comic book several years ago cautioned against using it for cleaning as it promotes carbon. Why it only promotes carbon for cleaning and not lubricating is a mystery to me, but I dont use CLP for anything anymore. Commercial choices abound, from mystical concoctions of Sergeant Majors brew to a host of this is the best stuff ever made and well sue anyone who says different crap.

I prefer to stay away from most petroleum based products, and use Slip 2000 for lube, and that same companies 725 Cleaner and Degreaser for the other chores. Slip 2000 is aqueous based, eliminating a lot of the contamination issues seen with petroleum products, and their products flat work. I have found Slip 2000 to be excellent and the owner, Greg Connor, is a great American. If I need grease, it will be TW25B (known in the Marine Corps, where it is used on the up gunned weapons stations on AAVs) as elephant sperm. Mad Dog Labs MD7 is something else worth looking carefully at, and it appears to work well.

Cleaning is another hot button topic, and a great many (especially AR detractors) really believe that the AR has to be kept meticulously clean to function. While having a clean gun is never bad, neither do you have to put up with the white glove nonsense.

My cleaning regime may be different from conventional protocol, but it works, and has stood the test of time. Ill field strip the carbine, and punch the tube with a wet patch. Leave the chemicals to do their work and get to the bolt/ bolt carrier assemblies. Clean the bolt carrier assembly by removing carbon from the bolt cam pin slot, inside of the bolt carrier (yeah, that chrome lined thing where the bolt goes in) and the bottom of the bolt carrier itself. You can use a wet pipe cleaner to clean the inside of the bolt carrier key. Do not put anything inside of the gas tube- it is unnecessary, and you will only stick debris in there that can do no good.

Use your toothbrush to clean the bolt, specifically the bolt lugs. Do not concern yourself with the carbon build up on the bolts tail. No matter how you clean it, it will just reappear the next time you shoot it. I had an armorer once tell me that the carbon promoted corrosion. That may well be if the gun is never shot, but I have yet to see a working bolt corrode away.

Attach that chamber brush to your cleaning rod and scrub out the chamber. I generally use a worn brush, wrap a wet patch around it and insert it in the chamber. Spin it a few times and replace it with a fresh brush. Spin that and then dry the chamber out. Clean out the locking lugs with cotton swabs. Clean out the upper receiver and charging handle. Your toothbrush and cotton swabs work well here. Take a few dry patches and clean the barrel. Note that I dont normally use a bore brush, and allow the cleaning fluid take care of the bore. Before the rockets start flying, I used to shoot Service Rifle, and am a High Master and a Distinguished Rifleman. I rarely used a brush on my M14NM or match AR15s. If I felt that the bore was heavily fouled I ran several wet patches through, and if I absolutely felt the need for a brush it was nylon- not copper. Never ever use a stainless steel brush in your barrel. Understand that this is for a carbine, which by virtue of its definition is a short-barreled rifle. The 5.56x45 mm service rounds and M4 carbines are certainly capable of hitting out past 500m, but it shines in fight that takes place under 200m. Bothering with inconsequential increments may not be useful under these circumstances.
However, if you have an SPR type, by all means give the care to that barrel that it deserves, but that care may be waster on a 10.5-14.5  carbine.

Before reassembling, check your bolt rings for serviceability. Insert the bolt into the bolt carrier, and turn it upside down (preferably over something soft). If the bolt falls out on its own, you need to change the gas rings. If not, you are good to go. Dont get locked into the nonsense of misaligning the gas rings. The Colt Armorer Instructors state emphatically that the gun will run with one good ring, and I have done exactly that.

Any gun is a machine, and once in your paws it must be properly maintained. That does not mean incessantly cleaned with a Jesuit like fervor, but rather to take care of those particular areas that affect functioning. Keep a gun book and annotate it with a round count so that you can figure out when certain parts- extractor springs, gas rings, bolts and barrels need replacing. Keep it lubed to reduce friction and understand that the more you use it, the more parts need to be replaced.

If you have questions, contact me directly.

S/F
Pat Rogers
www.eagtactical.com

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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Manedwolf

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2008, 05:51:40 PM »
If it requires that much lube, that's all the more reason why it's not an ideal combat rifle for harsh environments. What if you can't get lube?

AKs in third world countries run fine for decades with just a bit of motor oil now and again, and without any cleaning. That's your model for reliability.

Boomhauer

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Re: Army Taps Industry for M4 Replacement
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2008, 05:58:35 PM »
If it requires that much lube, that's all the more reason why it's not an ideal combat rifle for harsh environments. What if you can't get lube?

AKs in third world countries run fine for decades with just a bit of motor oil now and again, and without any cleaning. That's your model for reliability.

I'm not arguing for or against that. I'm just pointing out that yesitsloaded's ROTC unit is using minimal lube, when experience has shown that it should be run as wet as possible.

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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!