Fifth Grader Suspended For Wearing Anti-Obama Shirt

[MicroBalrog]

First, that the boy, being a child, doesn't have rights other than those that devolve from the rights of his parents.

Sorry, the Supreme Court disagrees with you.

I know, Micro. On this one I disagree with the Supremes. I guess it's just one of my things, but I don't understand how someone who hasn't reached their majority can be said to have the same rights as someone who has.

I don't think anybody argues that children have their rights protected equally to adults.

I for one think that as human beings, we have rights that are inherent in our humanity - the rights to basic human dignity, life, and so forth.

Now, obviously,  children don't have the same responsibilities and freedoms and adults, but I think that it's decent to say that a 14-year-old child is more responsible than a baby and should have more freedoms, and a 17-year-old is an adult in all but name.

Furthermore, a school organized on the notion the children have no rights and deserve no respect will make them into bad citizens.

[TF_FH]

Furthermore, a school organized on the notion the children have no rights and deserve no respect will make them into bad citizens.

Thats just about every public school now.  Heaven forbid you have a different opinion than the teacher.
Or disobey the mall-ninja security guard for something unrelated to safety.  That gets them to get supervisors.  Yay.

[MicroBalrog]

Furthermore, a school organized on the notion the children have no rights and deserve no respect will make them into bad citizens.

Thats just about every public school now.  Heaven forbid you have a different opinion than the teacher.
Or disobey the mall-ninja security guard for something unrelated to safety.  That gets them to get supervisors.  Yay.

Now go contemplate the fact that in a decade or two, children brought up in the modern, gun-free, CCTV-equipped, drug-raided, I-can-search-your-locker schools will start voting.

[Ned Hamford]

Now go contemplate the fact that in a decade or two, children brought up in the modern, gun-free, CCTV-equipped, drug-raided, I-can-search-your-locker schools will start voting.

And that is why that ever used legal concept of 'reasonable restrictions' moves in one direction.

[BReilley]

And that is why that ever used legal concept of 'reasonable restrictions' moves in one direction.

Get with the times... these days, we call it "common sense".

[Uncle Bubba]

Furthermore, a school organized on the notion the children have no rights and deserve no respect will make them into bad citizens.

You've read something something I didn't say into what I said.

Children are deserving of the respect any other human being is due as a fellow member of the human race. That means they are to be treated as such and not like idiots (as I've seen some of the teachers and parents at my oldest daughter's school treat them).

Their rights devolve from their parents' rights. Because they lack the capacity to understand the rights of an adult they don't get to exercise them, because if they screw up their parents are responsible, not them. That means they don't get to express themselves as they see fit because someone else is ultimately responsible for the consequences of their actions.

They are not due the same respect and do not have the same rights as an adult. That does not mean they have no rights and deserve no respect.

[TF_FH]

They are not due the same respect and do not have the same rights as an adult. That does not mean they have no rights and deserve no respect.

You haven't been to public schools lately have you?  I was in high school 1997-2001.  None of the students have any rights or respect anymore.  If we had a different opinion on one of those open ended questions, you were wrong.  If you persisted with your "wrong" opinion you either got marked down for it or sent away to the vice principal for disrupting class.  They shove their politics down your throat to make you think there is nothing wrong with their way and that its the only way things should ever work.  They really warp kids minds and hope it sticks.

Oh, and that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?  Even if the evidence is extremely circumstancial, you're screwed.

[Boomhauer]

You haven't been to public schools lately have you?  I was in high school 1997-2001.  None of the students have any rights or respect anymore.  If we had a different opinion on one of those open ended questions, you were wrong.  If you persisted with your "wrong" opinion you either got marked down for it or sent away to the vice principal for disrupting class.  They shove their politics down your throat to make you think there is nothing wrong with their way and that its the only way things should ever work.  They really warp kids minds and hope it sticks.

Oh, and that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?  Even if the evidence is extremely circumstancial, you're screwed.

And it works. Kids graduate and are mindless zombies. I hear it all of the time around the college campus...spouting conspiracy theories about 9/11, espousing how EVIL!!!!OMG!!!!!EVIL George W. Bush is, and how Obama is going to save us all...

Idiots. Fortunately, I learned to think for myself. I was constantly in clashes with the HS teachers.

[buzz_knox]

You haven't been to public schools lately have you?  I was in high school 1997-2001.  None of the students have any rights or respect anymore.  If we had a different opinion on one of those open ended questions, you were wrong.  If you persisted with your "wrong" opinion you either got marked down for it or sent away to the vice principal for disrupting class.  They shove their politics down your throat to make you think there is nothing wrong with their way and that its the only way things should ever work.  They really warp kids minds and hope it sticks.

Oh, and that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?  Even if the evidence is extremely circumstancial, you're screwed.

Colleges and law schools are frequently the same way.  If you conform to the expected standard, you're "independence of thought is celebrated."  If you are actually independent and thoughtful about issues, you are hounded as reactionary and a fool.

[Uncle Bubba]

You haven't been to public schools lately have you?  I was in high school 1997-2001.  None of the students have any rights or respect anymore.  If we had a different opinion on one of those open ended questions, you were wrong.  If you persisted with your "wrong" opinion you either got marked down for it or sent away to the vice principal for disrupting class.  They shove their politics down your throat to make you think there is nothing wrong with their way and that its the only way things should ever work.  They really warp kids minds and hope it sticks.

Oh, and that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?  Even if the evidence is extremely circumstancial, you're screwed.

Then that line of Micrbalrog's I quoted in my last post is true, isn't it? With an exception or three like yourself.

The current mindset of public school administrators and teachers is precisely why my oldest daughter will not get beyond where she is now - fifth grade - in any public school. To this point the focus has been at least partly where it should be, cramming her little head with a base of knowledge to build on. I've had to counter a bit of groupthink here and there, but not too often. But once she gets to middle school the Leftist political indoctrination sets in with a vengeance.

Regarding your last line, FWIW there is no presumption of innocence elsewhere than in court. That said, I'm well aware of how the school systems operate in disciplinary matters. It's "lie and deny" for anything up to physical assault. If it gets to physical assault on another student, well, the reaction depends on what they expect from the parents. It might be a criminal charge, it might be swept under the rug. If it's assault on a teacher, OTOH, it'll definitely be swept under the rug, and the teacher assured of discontinued employment if he pushes it. I just had a talk with Sweetie Pie (the fifth-grader) about what to do if she's ever pulled into the office and they want to interrogate her over what they term a serious matter. She's to say, "Call my Mom and Dad." and no more.

So given how it is, as opposed to the way it oughta be, after this school year, she will be homeschooled.

[MicroBalrog]

UB, I have only to say that I applaud your determination to homeschool your child. In my view, homeschooling and private schooling are the way to go and the path to the eventual salvation of the Republic. Anybody who homeschools is doing a civic duty infinitely more important than voting, and harder, too.

[Boomhauer]

UB, I have only to say that I applaud your determination to homeschool your child. In my view, homeschooling and private schooling are the way to go and the path to the eventual salvation of the Republic. Anybody who homeschools is doing a civic duty infinitely more important than voting, and harder, too.

Want an indication of how much better and effective home and private schooling is?

Look at the outrage exhibited by the NEA over homeschooling. Look how they want restriction on it.

The leftists don't want you to homeschool your children. Makes it harder for them to indoctrinate your children...

[Ned Hamford]

FWIW there is no presumption of innocence elsewhere than in court. That said, I'm well aware of how the school systems operate in disciplinary matters. It's "lie and deny" for anything up to physical assault.  "Call my Mom and Dad." and no more.

Just as abit of fun.  My HS princepal physically pulled me into his office (leaving bruises on my arm) and tried to force a confession for a crime that was physically impossible for me to have commited.  When the police arrived and he gave them 'the facts' they called him a liar to his face.  When the actual perpetrator was uncovered two weeks later, he had to write a letter of apology to the charity he stole from and had two weeks of after school detention. 

I was the honor student with the spotless history and he was the open drug user and ne'er do well. 

I will never let my own children (when I have them) be 'educated' in an enviroment like that.  Private school with their legal and proffesional accountability or homeschool.

[don]

The courts have held that the schools stand In loco parentis [in place of parents]. Do you allow your kids the same rights that adults have? The first rule for a public school teacher is classroom control. If by their actions or dress they are being disruptive to the learning process then they should change or get out. I am a teacher. I set the rules in my class. My class is not by any stretch of the imagination a democracy; it is an autocracy and I am the autocrat. I've been teaching long enough to know what I can and cannot do . I play by the rules and so do my students. My code of conduct for students is simple. I will show students respect and they had better show me respect or pretend that they do. I've read a lot about student's rights. Let me approach it from a different view. A student does not have the right to do anything to disrupt the learning it my class. That robs others of the chance to learn. They do not have that right. Disrupt my class and I will kick your butt out so fast that your head will spin. Call me a hardass and I am complimented, but guess what- my students excell. I have never had a math team defeated and most of them like my classes because they can learn.

[MicroBalrog]

Don, several things.

First of all, do you appreciate it when you read news articles about teachers strip-searching all kids in a class when an item has been stolen?

Or schools tracking students with CCTV cameras?

Or teachers searching kids' bags and lockers without any kind of process, to look for Evil Wepinz or Demon rum Weed?

That has nothing to do with respect for teachers. That has to do with the basic dignity of a human being. It does not improve your learning environment a single bit to do that.  Worse, it inculcates the completely wrong sort of values to them. I don't want to live in a society that grew up in an environment like that.

The argument that kids do not have the same rights as adults does not mean we can do whatever the hell we want to them. And in answer to your question, I do think a 'child' that is sixteen or seventeen should be treated with some form of deference to his autonomy that perhaps a toddler would not warrant.

Nor is the fact that the government supposedly acts in loco parentis a justification of this form of behavior. Parents are not completely free to do what they want with their children. A parent who strip-searches his son or daughter would probably be prosecuted for child abuse of some form. Parents are not allowed to apply unlimited discipline and neither should be schools. Teachers are further limited by law - corporal punishment is prohibited, for example, as it should be.

Is it too much to ask that strip-searching and tracking off the students' behavior outside school be removed from the power of the teacher?


For the record, my father is a former teacher and I tutor ten-year-olds.

[SteveS]

It is nice to see not only someone at such a young age interested in politics, but also willing to stick up for them and not kowtow to the school.

Wearing a t-shirt = an interest in politics? 

[don]

Posts: 3094


    Re: Fifth Grader Suspended For Wearing Anti-Obama Shirt
« Reply #39 on: Today at 02:56:44 PM » Quote 

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Don, several things.

First of all, do you appreciate it when you read news articles about teachers strip-searching all kids in a class when an item has been stolen? No
Or schools tracking students with CCTV cameras? CCTV is a good idea when used correctly and in some schools.
Or teachers searching kids' bags and lockers without any kind of process, to look for Evil Wepinz or Demon rum Weed?Locker searches If a reason to search lockers exists, ok by me.
That has nothing to do with respect for teachers. That has to do with the basic dignity of a human being. It does not improve your learning environment a single bit to do that.  Worse, it inculcates the completely wrong sort of values to them. I don't want to live in a society that grew up in an environment like that.

The argument that kids do not have the same rights as adults does not mean we can do whatever the hell we want to them. And in answer to your question, I do think a 'child' that is sixteen or seventeen should be treated with some form of deference to his autonomy that perhaps a toddler would not warrant. Agreed, that is why I said no corporal punishment past eighth grade as far as I am concerned.

Nor are the
For the record, my father is a former teacher and I tutor ten-year-olds.

Nor is the fact that the government supposedly acts in loco parentis a justification of this form of behavior. Parents are not completely free to do what they want with their children. A parent who strip-searches his son or daughter would probably be prosecuted for child abuse of some form. Parents are not allowed to apply unlimited discipline and neither should be schools. Teachers are further limited by law - corporal punishment is prohibited, for example, as it should be. No, I don't think it is in TN, strip searches I agree with you. I don't agree with corporal punishment after eighth grade.

Is it too much to ask that strip-searching and tracking off the students' behavior outside school be removed from the power of the teacher? A teacher would have to be brain dead to strip search a student. Classroom teachers do not have the authority to strip search I leave that to the administration. As far as after school behavior is concerned, the school is generally responsible until the student gets home.For the record, my father is a former teacher and I tutor ten-year-olds.
 
 
 

[MicroBalrog]

If a reason to search lockers exists, ok by me.

Random searches are now the norm in many schools.

No, I don't think it is in TN

Ah. Mea culpa. It is illegal in 29 states, didn't know you don't live in one of them.

My point is this: This stuff may be declared Constitutional by the courts (though the courts have ruled time and time again that students DO retain the right of free political expression and DO retain some rights to privacy), but in my view, its contribution to the security of the schools is outweighed by the influence it has on the mind of the young - which is why if I were the parent in such a school where this would be practiced, my reaction would be to remove the offspring ASAP and to sue the school for the most money I could get.