NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama

[Gewehr98]

OK, I get it.  The amendment that Obama voted for could have been applied to rifle ammo, because a handgun could be built to fire it.  I think it's a stretch, but I see your point.

Nope. Sorry Dave, it's not a stretch - not even close.

This is one of my handguns, and it's chambered for a variant of the venerable .30-30 Winchester RIFLE cartridge.  It was produced in the late 1980s as a commercially-available handgun for the silhouette target sport.  The 139gr Hornady hunting bullets it accelerates to 2000fps from the 10" barrel will easily defeat body armor.



Wichita Arms is still in business to this day, and currently makes a bolt-action pistol that chambers even more powerful rifle cartridges.  There are many other handgun manufacturers offering similar firearms, and they've been on the market for decades. 

Instead of hopping into this forum and insulting the intelligence of folks who've been there and done that, how about you kick back, ask a few non-offensive questions, and learn something?  That will give you insight into why we cherish our 2nd Amendment rights, and make you appear less as a troll and more as somebody with a learning curve ahead of him.     

[Regolith]

There's also the Thompson Contender



 which is favored by both hunters and target shooters due to its light weight and the fact that it's chambered in full sized rifle cartridges. 

The Contender is chambered in all of these rifle cartridges:

204 Ruger     
22 Hornet    
223 Rem
6.8 Rem    
7-30 Waters    
30/30 Win
45/70 Gov't    

All of these cartridges, except maybe the .22 Hornet and possibly the .204 Ruger (I don't know the ballistics for these catridges well enough to say for sure), can cut through Type I and II armor like a hot knife through butter.

Some of them might even be able to penetrate low-level Type III armor.

The bill would have banned ALL of these cartridges, despite their wide use by civilians, because they are chambered in a handgun and can penetrate armor.

To say that almost every single rifle cartridge ever made, except for perhaps some obscure wildcat (custom) or obsolete cartridges,  has been chambered in a pistol is not hyperbole.  It is cold hard fact.  This bill would have banned almost all of them because of this.

[KD5NRH]

I never claimed that Obama is against an AWB.  And thank you for confirming that the amendment he voted for targeted rifle ammunition only if it was intended to be armor-piercing.

Read the whole thing:

Code:

(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, under section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor;

"may be used in a handgun" covers pretty much anything on the market.  The Thompson Encore is available in pretty much everything up to .416 Rigby, including the supposedly not covered .30-30 and .30-06.

[mtnbkr]

Regolith, the list of rifle cartridges available in the Contender is MUCH longer if you include the aftermarket barrels.

KD5NRH, welcome.  There are several other hams here as well.

Chris/KI4POT

[agricola]

Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

I can run over a person who is wearing body armor and kill him/her with my truck.

Should my possession of said truck be banned?

Sawdust

Can I just register my opposition to the invasion of trolls to this thread?  I dont mind the mindless Obamadrones but Gooners are a bridge too far, IMHO.

[Ben]

Gooners

Had to look that one up in the Urban Dictionary. 

[K Frame]

Who was it who used to make the rotary breech pistol (back in the early 1990s when I was with NRA) chambered for a lot of rifle cartridges, including .300 Mag.?

Eagle Arms?

[Gewehr98]

Magnum Research Lone Eagle.

I've shot the .30-06 version. 



http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Single-Shot-Pistols/Magnum_Lone_Eagle.htm

[K Frame]

There we go! That's the one.

IIRC the one we got at Rifleman was .270.

[DaveBeal]

I'm a little late returning to this party, but I admit that you guys have educated me.  Really.  I'm not being sarcastic.

I didn't know that there were handguns designed to fire traditional rifle ammo.

And more importantly, I'm convinced by the argument that you shouldn't outlaw the tool when the act is already illegal.  That makes a lot of sense to me.

But I still think that some of the points on the NRA website are intentionally misleading.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

xmas!  whats shooting a 30.06 pistol like?! i got a nice scar from my first 30.06 rifle shot  no one told me not to ease eye close to scope

[nico]

But I still think that some of the points on the NRA website are intentionally misleading.

I don't think anyone here will argue with the notion that the inferred more than the typical non-gun owner about obama's statements.  That said, the NRA's assumptions are a hell of a lot less extreme than the gun grabbers who say that advocates of concealed carry want everyone to carry a gun, or that castle doctrine laws allow anyone to justify murder by saying "i felt threatened."

[Regolith]

Regolith, the list of rifle cartridges available in the Contender is MUCH longer if you include the aftermarket barrels.

Ah, didn't know that.  I don't know a whole lot about them, and I was just going off what Thompson's website said their factory loadings were.

[wmenorr67]

I'm a little late returning to this party, but I admit that you guys have educated me.  Really.  I'm not being sarcastic.

I didn't know that there were handguns designed to fire traditional rifle ammo.

And more importantly, I'm convinced by the argument that you shouldn't outlaw the tool when the act is already illegal.  That makes a lot of sense to me.

But I still think that some of the points on the NRA website are intentionally misleading.

You just scored some points with that admittance.  If you stay here, keep an open mind and you might learn a few more things.

[KD5NRH]

Magnum Research Lone Eagle.

I've shot the .30-06 version.

I can't imagine that being fun with hot 185gr loads...at least not for very long.

.243 OTOH seems like it would be a blast (literally) from a handgun with a muzzle brake.

[yesitsloaded]

I'll use Virginia Tech as an example of why gun control doesn't work, as it hits close to home as I am a college student.

It is illegal to have guns on campus (only law I list that I disagree with)
It is illegal to commit murder
It is illegal to discharge weapons in crowded buildings
It is illegal to assault people with a deadly weapon
It is illegal to block a fire exit (Cho chained he doors shut)
It is illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit in Virginia
It is illegal to make a bomb threat (he left a note indicating there was a bomb)
Cho wasn't too worried about breaking laws. However law abiding citizens that follow laws were denied a right to defend themselves. Think about this and think about it hard:

In April 2005, a student licensed by the state to carry concealed weapons was discovered possessing a concealed firearm in class. While no criminal charges were filed, a university spokesman said the University had "the right to adhere to and enforce that policy as a common-sense protection of students, staff and faculty as well as guests and visitors".[110]

In January 2006, prior to the shootings, legislator Todd Gilbert had introduced a related bill into the Virginia House of Delegates. The bill, HB 1572, was intended to forbid public universities in Virginia from preventing students from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun on campus.[111] The university opposed the bill, which quickly died in subcommittee. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the defeat of the bill, stating, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."[112]

It isn't about feeling safe, it is about being able to defend yourself.

[MicroBalrog]

I have a question.

Why the hell are we assuming it's not legitimate for civilians to have 'armor-piercing' ammunition in the first place?

[yesitsloaded]

Because some of us forget that our government is actually made up of nothing but citizens that elect representatives merely because our houses of government won't hold 250+ Million people. Every one of those citizens entitled to life,liberty, etc.

[Manedwolf]

I have a question.

Why the hell are we assuming it's not legitimate for civilians to have 'armor-piercing' ammunition in the first place?

It is actually still legal to own, sell, and shoot true AP. You just can't import or manufacture any more for sale.

There's still a number of boxes of the aforementioned 30-06 AP, as well as 9mm AP around at shows, steadily going up in price due to attrition. I'm not sure how M855 has managed to be a loophole, but I'm sure the dems would ban it, despite no incidents of it ever being used illegally to defeat someone's armor. It could, you see.

[BReilley]

And more importantly, I'm convinced by the argument that you shouldn't outlaw the tool when the act is already illegal.  That makes a lot of sense to me.

But I still think that some of the points on the NRA website are intentionally misleading.

Oh, they are.  Generally, users here are "informed" enough not to take the NRA's statistics for granted(similarly, we cringe at Brady Campaign "research"), so you won't find many here to disagree on that point.

Are the NRA's statements any more misleading than Obama's denials of responsibility for previous statements(the survey, etc) and backpedaling("above my pay grade")?

I have a question.

Why the hell are we assuming it's not legitimate for civilians to have 'armor-piercing' ammunition in the first place?

The issue here is the quotation marks around "armor-piercing", not the ammunition itself.  As has been mentioned many times, most rifle rounds "can" penetrate basic body armor, but aren't marketed as such.  It just seems to be one of those "if only one life is saved..." justifications meant to make all gun owners seem like gangers or "crazies"("why on earth would you ever need that?").

[Perd Hapley]

Here's a crazy idea.  What if political ads featured presidential candidates touring steel mills, pressing the flesh at whistle-stops, and then firing a scary-looking rifle at an Appleseed shoot, or a three-gun match? 

No, forget it, who wants to live in a crazy world like that, right? 

[Green Lantern]

I'm a little late returning to this party, but I admit that you guys have educated me.  Really.  I'm not being sarcastic.

I didn't know that there were handguns designed to fire traditional rifle ammo.

And more importantly, I'm convinced by the argument that you shouldn't outlaw the tool when the act is already illegal.  That makes a lot of sense to me.

But I still think that some of the points on the NRA website are intentionally misleading.

MmmmMMMmmmmmMMMMmmm...

When I was giving out the cards NRA sent, or even copies from the magazine I made myself...

I pointed out that while all were things that Obama HAS supported in the past - it's been several years on some of them.  Though I also pointed out he hasn't come out in OPPOSITION to them that I was aware of either...

[yesitsloaded]

Let's see what crazy nutjobs would actually fit that description Fistful. " Make sure your right, then go ahead" House of Representatives 1827-1831 Davy Crockett

President Teddy Roosevelt

While Roosevelt was campaigning in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on October 14, 1912, a saloonkeeper named John Schrank shot him, but the bullet lodged in his chest only after penetrating both his steel eyeglass case and passing through a thick (50 pages) single-folded copy of the speech he was carrying in his jacket.[68] Roosevelt, as an experienced hunter and anatomist, correctly concluded that since he wasn't coughing blood the bullet had not completely penetrated the chest wall to his lung, and so declined suggestions he go to the hospital immediately. Instead, he delivered his scheduled speech with blood seeping into his shirt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Teddy_Roosevelt_video_montage.ogg video of him "pressing the flesh"

There are others, but those two jumped out at me.