Is "high-mileage" motor oil a rip-off?

[SalukiFan]

So, my trusty Camry just hit 100,000 last month and I'm thinking about the next oil change.  I usually use Pennzoil 5w30 and a new Fram oil filter each time I change the oil somewhere between 3,000 and 4,500 miles.  

I was looking at the motor oil section and noticed that they have special "high-mileage" motor oil now.  

Has anyone used it?  Is it worth it? (It comes with it's own special "high-mileage" price)

Will it make my engine last longer or what?

[Paddy]

Motor oil collects dirt and combustion byproducts which are abrasive.  The longer it's in the engine, the dirtier it gets.  Modern oils really do not break down.  "High mileage" oil is a marketing gimmick.

I usually use Pennzoil 5w30 and a new Fram oil filter each time I change the oil somewhere between 3,000 and 4,500 miles.

You're doing everything right except the Fram filter.  They're basically crap.

[SalukiFan]

Motor oil collects dirt and combustion byproducts which are abrasive.  The longer it's in the engine, the dirtier it gets.  Modern oils really do not break down.  "High mileage" oil is a marketing gimmick.

I usually use Pennzoil 5w30 and a new Fram oil filter each time I change the oil somewhere between 3,000 and 4,500 miles.

You're doing everything right except the Fram filter.  They're basically crap.

Are Fram filters crap?  I had no idea.  What would you recommend instead?

[Sindawe]

High Milage motor oils often have a little different additive packages (trace elements, metals, detergents, viscosity modifiers and seal conditioners) than standard motor oils.  My '91 Civic (150k miles) consumes ~1 liter oil/1,000 miles on regular Castrol GTX 5W-30 dino oil, but when I run the HM GTX 5W-30 dino, the consumption drops to ~1 liter oil/2,200 miles.

Check out this site, http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi for additional information/debate about oils.

The "budget" Frams are garbage. The top end Frams are still OK though. Wix and Napa Gold are currently considered some of the better filters.

[Ben]

You're doing everything right except the Fram filter.  They're basically crap.

I generally agree with that statement, except for the Toughguard. There used to be a really great webpage that is now 404, where some engineers did an in-depth analysis of different filters (cut them open, analyzed materials both before and after use). Parts I remember were that all the Frams (basically the radioactive orange ones) except the Toughguard were pretty much bottom of the barrel (apparently after an ownership and manufacturing technique change some years ago, when they were all good filters). The Toughguard was actually rated as one of the top five. The only other brand in the top five I remember was Motorcraft. I happen to use both those filters, which is probably the only reason I remember them from the list.

Edited to add: Sindawe's post jarred my memory. I remember Wix mentioned as good quality.
Edited again: Actually that link kicked in the other two on that top five list -- I think they were a NAPA filter and one of the Purolators.

[SalukiFan]

Thanks very much for the advice regarding oil filters - I'll get a Wix, Napa Gold or Fram Toughguard next time around.  

Luckily, my Camry doesn't consume a lot of oil so I don't think the reduced oil consumption is a big factor for me.  My understanding of the mechanics of motor oil is limited so some of theoildrop.server101.com forum conversation seemed over my head but through a search, I was able to find some good information.  Thanks for the link Sindawe.

I think I'll give the high mileage motor oil a try and throw on a better filter and see how it goes.

[Azrael256]

You're doing everything right except the Fram filter.  They're basically crap.

I used to work in one of those McDonalds auto shop places.  Not quite JiffyLube, but only a half-step or so up.  I've cut open a whole bunch of filters.  Those el-cheapo off-brand filters that you get from places like JiffyLube, Penzoil filters, and Fram all look absolutely identical on the inside.  The Toughguard filters are much different, as are STP filters and Wix.  I recall the Motorcraft filtered engines having the nicest looking oil no matter what the age of the vehicle.

"High mileage" oils are different.  Vehicles that usually burn a great deal of oil will burn less on those oils.  I know that just from checking.  There is no such thing as a 10,000 mile oil change, so don't bother with the "extended protection" BS.  Just as Riley said, oil changes have more to do with contamination than oil breakdown.  Btw, modern oils will break down.  We had an idiot come in with what we estimated to be 15,000 mile old oil in his car.  After five times the recommended life, the oil had become so filthy that it really just wouldn't flow anymore, and it began to cook in various places around the engine.  We drained out a clear-ish fluid, much lower viscosity than new oil, and some sort of charred-looking sediment that was floating in it.  I still don't know just how that happened, but there you have it.

[Standing Wolf]

My mother bought a new Chevrolet sedan the year she started teaching. It was absolutely her car. No one else was allowed to drive it, and my father was emphatically not welcome to tell her how to have it maintained.

He kept suggesting she take it in for an oil change and tune-up.

"Nope," she insisted. "They did all that at the factory."

It finally stopped running after about five years. At that point, she took it back to the dealer to complain she'd been sold a lemon. Even the dealer couldn't persuade her she was supposed to have the car serviced now and then. Muttering and cursing all the way, she invested the costs of an oil change, new tires, and a tune-up in the car, and drove it several more years.

Her advice to me as a novice driver was to "line up the hood ornament with the curb, and you'll be all right."

Amazingly, she never had a wreck, nor ever received a traffic ticket.

[Sindawe]

Re: Azreal256's idiot story.  <<>  That poor engine, I'll bet it looked like this inside. http://photobucket.com/albums/b72/mdocod/zooki%20before%20arx/  (WARNING: These images will make cats scream, dogs howl and small children cry).

[Guest]

The only way I can think of to make the oil leak less is to make it thicker in terms of consistency (which is why synthetics leak more than regular oil). I have to wonder if a thicker oil is a great idea in a high mileage car that probably doesnt have very clear passages in the first place.

[280plus]

I'm most afraid that the "high mileage"oil will start to break down deposits and send them throughout the motor to clog something important. I had a 1983 AMC Eagle with the 6 cylinder and changed the oil faithfully. I used to use Fram filters but that was in the old days when they were supposed to be top o' the line. Anyhoo, I sold that car in about 1998 with the speedo haven broken long ago and stuck at about 160,000 miles and if you checked the oil it was perfectly clean on the stick. Not only that but if you pulled off the oil fill cap and looked at the rocker arms inside you could see that they too were PERFECTLY CLEAN!! You don't have to go for the fancy hyped up oils, just change the stuff regulary like you're supposed to and everything should be just fine. If you've neglected your oil changes however, no fancy oils will save it, it's too late.

This reminds me, time to change the oil in all my vehicles...

[cfabe]

The claim thay make is that it has something in it that makes seals swell, so if you have an old dried out seal that's starting to leak, it may slow or stop the leak. I've never tried it though. When I have a car leaking bad enough to worry about, I just fix it the right way. Oil leaks are often very inexpensive to repair. Unless you have a reason to believe something is wrong, I'd keep on your current maintainence routine, but use a fram TG filter instead.

[mfree]

The motorcraft filters are purolator pure-1's with a few changes.

I'd avoid fram, period. If they cost-cut as much as they do on the regular flters it's just a matter of time before that effort "trickles down" into the TG's.

[Paddy]

OTOH, there are also additive, such as "Slick 50", which I've used to no detriment.  Did it get extra mileage out of an old engine?  Who knows....  It sure didn't hurt anything.

[SalukiFan]

Hmm.  So maybe conventional oil and a better oil filter or conventional oil, plus an additive like Slick 50 and a better oil filter...

[DrAmazon]

My significant other is a mechanic, and he's very fond of using very high quality syntetic oil, a good oil filter and a second "bypass" oil filter.  The bypass filter filters out the smaller particles that the filter misses, keeping things quite clean.  With this kind of system he's run his Suburban over 300K miles, changing oil about every 10K miles.  I've had mine about 8 months, and have noticed slightly higher mileage.

[richyoung]

Ah,..the good old  "I change it every 3000 miles & never had a problem, so I must be right" myth.  In PART ! of my reply, I explain where the 3000 mile figure came from.

Part ONE:  "Mineral Oil?  Filter?  We don't NEED no stinking filter!"

Early internal combustion engines were lubricated with oil from castor beans, the infamous "castor oil" that used to be administered as a laxitive.  This was really, REALLY hard on early pilots, as the exhausts and engine leaks exposed them to a steady diet of castor oil fumes - thus the "dashing young men in their flying machines" were actually dashing...to the latrine!  Clearances and seals were so loose that the oil probably never stayed in the engine LONG enough to go bad, as it was contantly being replaced.  Filters?  Heck many of the engines of the day had NO OIL PUMP - the rods slamming into the cankcase splashed oil all over - called "splash oiling".  Fast forward to the '30s - engines are starting to use "mineral oil", refined from petroleum, and with additives.  In the interest of longevity, most now have at least a partially pressurized oil system - still no filter though -  a simple screen over the pump intake is all thats there.  Air filters are primitive, if present at all, and the metallurgy of bearings, cranks, valves, and blocks is only slightly improved. The fuel contains tetra-ethyl lead, as both a "top end" lubricant, and an octane enhancer.  The question now arises, since the newer technology is sealed better, "How long do we run on one "change" of this new oil?  Engineers and chemists got together, greased up their slip sticks, and decided for aircraft and heavy equipment, 50 hours of operation was about right.  When it came to cars, slight problem - no detailed logs of operation are normally kept, nor is there a timer for hours of operation - so they "swagged" an average speed of 30 MPH, multiplied it by 50 hours, to get a recommended oil change interval of 1,500 miles.

FAST FORWARD to the '50s:  The modern "spin on" oil filter is coming into use, much better than a screen (which is still there) at purifying the oil - everything has at least an "oil bath" air filter, if not an oiled paper-element or foam filter for the air.  Automatic chokes are starting to reduce the time the engine runs excessively rich, which reduces oil contamination by unburned fuel over "manual chokes".  Modern overhead-valve systems replace "flathead" valve-in-block technology and REQUIRE a fully pressurized oil system - as a side benefit, mians and rod bearing oiling is also improved.  Real advances in engine component materials are starting to be seen.  Vastly improved additives are now in "motor oil". NOW, how long do we run on one "oil change"?  Again, airplanes led the way - 100 hours was thought to be safe.  Again, they "swagged" 30 MPH,...and came up with the "3000 mile oil and filter change".

The '60's and 70's- blocks get tougher - the automakers, who want to avoid using expensive aluminum for blocks and heads, add tin and other alloys to cast thin, strong, "lightweight" iron castings - which also are more wear-resistant.  Technology for seals starts to incorporate neoprene, nylon, and other synthetic materials - bearing metal improves...

The '80s up to now - What few carbs are still hanging on  are computer controlled - everything else is one form or another of fuel injection - ELIMINATING fuel contamination of oil.  Synthetic oils, and conventional oils with improved additive packages cope with foaming, coking, acid, dirt, viscousity break-down, and moisture MUCH better.  Thermostats are 15 degrees hotter, lead has been removed from gasoline, removing another oil contaminant.  Oil filter technology improves, with some "extended life" filters claiming lifetimes in excess of 15,000 miles, aircraft and major fleets use oil analysis to determing if oil needs to be changed - how long do you run it in your car?  Especially when some manufacturers are recommending oil change intervals in excess of 7,500 miles?  The answer in part two....

[richyoung]

PART TWO:  "I change my oil religiously every 3000 miles...."

Question:  when does most engine wear occur?
Answer:  At start-up.  At least 80% to as much as 95% of ALL engine wear occurs in the first 30-60 seconds of engine operation after start.
Question:  Where is the oil during all this wear?
Answer:  Sitting in the crankcase - waiting to be pumped to the parts.

IMPLICATION:  Synthetic, dino, clean, dirty, DOESN"T MATTER - so long as you don't run it long enough to SLUDGE THE ENGINE, approximately 90% of engine wear is BEYOND your ability to control - unless you go to a dry sump system or hydraulic accumulator that allows you to pre-oil the ngine before firing, routinely.

Oil doesn't "wear out" - its additives become depleated, and it becomes contaminated.  "Dirty" looking oil is NOT necessarily bad, or ready to be changed - the oil has detergent additives to keep dirt in suspension - "dirty" looking oil just means the detergent is doing its job.  IF you change the oil every 3000 miles, you probably will never have an oil-related issue - of course, you also probably wouldn't have one if you changed the oil and filter every time you started the engine, (except wearing out the threads on the drain plug...), - BUT you DON'T - because it would be a waste of $$$ - JUST like a 3000 mile oil change is!  If you change too often, you waste a scarce natural resource, the excess waste oil has to be disposed of somehow, you have less money for other things....and the owner of the "kwicky-loob" gets to send his son to Harvard!  I have driven over 25,000 miles on ONE oil change - this in an LT1 in a Firebird that was driven HARD - NO engine problems!  The oil was synthetic, (Mobil One), the filter an extended life model, and most of the miles were highway miles.  The KEY is to keep the crankase topped off - even if it is only 1/4 of a quart low - top off.  This replenishes the additives.

Advice:  FOLLOW your manufacturer's recommended standard service interval, (or the "towing/severe duty" interval IF you primarily drive short trips and/or live in a particularly dusty environment, like Oklahoma....) when using regular "dinosaur" oil and conventional filters...if outside of the waranty period, you can safely DOUBLE that with fully synthetic oil and extended life premium filters.  EXCEPTION:  diesels and turbocharged engines that don't have a seperate oil system for the turbo bearings OR a "feed after engine shutoff" oil system to thte turbo - THOSE applications should RELIGIOUSLY follow their manufacturer's service intervals, with synthetic oil and premium filters being good "insurance" on top of that.  The reason is that turbos get very hot - they can literally "cook" the oil in them, especially after being run hard and shut off.  Diesels have tighter clearances, more combustion by-product contamination, more fuel dillution of oil, and higher operating pressures  (that's why they sound like they are about to blow...), consequently, they are much harder on oil.  A turbo-diesel?  I don't HAVE one, but if i did, I'd..."religiously change the oil and filter every 3000 miles..."

Your mileage may vary -
Rich

[DrAmazon]

What if you have an oil that is more viscous, or has more "stick" to the metal (can't think of the scientific term)?  Those properties mean that there is more oil remaning on the intert parts when the majority of the oil has infact drained into the crank case.  That residual oil is what will protect those parts on startup.

[richyoung]

What if you have an oil that is more viscous, or has more "stick" to the metal (can't think of the scientific term)?  Those properties mean that there is more oil remaning on the intert parts when the majority of the oil has infact drained into the crank case.  That residual oil is what will protect those parts on startup.

You would THINK that - but it doesn't work out that way in practice - the temperatures of the internal engine components range from that of the water jacket - about 200 degrees F - to in excess of 1000 degrees.  At those temps, ALL the oil, regardless of viscosity, runs off pretty fast - just like the chicken at KFC - only more so, because its metal - not food.  Try this experiment at home:  pick any oil-based salad dressing - (I prefer French or Thousand Island - your salad may vary...), tighten the cap, and TURN THE BOTTLE UPSIDE DOWN.  Go ahead and put it back in the fridg, (don't want to cause food poisoning for anybody!)  Come back 4 hours later, and see what, (if anything) is sticking to the bottom (now top) of the bottle - THATS what is left on your engine parts at start-up!  (Again, its worse with hot metal than cold glass or plastic.)

The idea does make for a good comercial tho - doesn't it!

[Art Eatman]

Interesting.  My '85 Toyota 4WD PU has 287,000 miles on the original crankshaft.  I've always used Castrol GTX 20-50, once I got up to around 75,000 miles.  (Lighter weight, earlier)  I've always used Fram filters.  I fried the engine once; my own fault on water in the radiator.  Inspection during the rebuild indicated no scarring or marring from anything associated with the oiling.

I've been running Fram filters since around the early 1960s, and have rebuilt over 100 engines during the years.  Sporty-car racing, hot-rodding, and buying "dead" sports cars for rebuild/resale.

I've mostly stayed with the GTX 20-50, since I never lost oil pressure with it during races.  Full-throttle for a half-hour in July/August in Texas is a pretty good test.  I started out running Pennzoil Z-7 30 and 40 weight in my Formula Vee, which is a pretty good test.  I had a Valvoline deal during my one year of Formula A; never had any bearing trouble, and I was turning to 8,500 rpm.

I've generally changed oil in 3,000 to 3,500 mile intervals...

Art

[Declaration Day]

Thanks for the great write up, richyoung.  You're probably going to think I am crazy for what I am about to tell you, but here goes.

I own a small lawnservice company and our newest truck, which also serves as my daily driver, is a 2005 Chevy Silverado 2500HD.  Between pulling the lawnservice equipment 6 days a week, 6.5 months per year, and snowplowing, these trucks get one heck of a workout.  

I change the oil once a month in that truck, no matter what it looks like or how many miles are on it.  I do it myself, use the cheap stuff, and can do the job for $10.  On top of that, it's a write off, and a tiny drop in the bucket of my company's monthly expenses.  I paid $34,000 for that truck and I need it to last a long time, so I get peace of mind if nothing else!

[Waitone]

I have a 97 Ranger 6 cylinder engine.  I run 5-7,000 miles per oil change.  Every other change I have the engine flushed (extra $8).  The engine has 162,000 miles on it and uses very little oil.  I believe the issue is to change oil and filter regularly.

Filter?  WIX private labels a large number of filters including CarQuest, NAPA, Texaco, and many others.  Go to WIX HQ and browse the samples case in the lobby.  To the best of my knowledge FRAM does not private label.

[Antibubba]

An oil thread!  Now's my chance to ask about the Amsoil bypass filters and accessories.

Yay or Nay?

[280plus]

Now's my chance to ask about the Amsoil bypass filters and accessories.

Does this have anything to do with Amway?