Is "high-mileage" motor oil a rip-off?

[DrAmazon]

You would THINK that - but it doesn't work out that way in practice - the temperatures of the internal engine components range from that of the water jacket - about 200 degrees F - to in excess of 1000 degrees.  At those temps, ALL the oil, regardless of viscosity, runs off pretty fast - just like the chicken at KFC - only more so, because its metal - not food.  Try this experiment at home:  pick any oil-based salad dressing - (I prefer French or Thousand Island - your salad may vary...), tighten the cap, and TURN THE BOTTLE UPSIDE DOWN.  Go ahead and put it back in the fridg, (don't want to cause food poisoning for anybody!)  Come back 4 hours later, and see what, (if anything) is sticking to the bottom (now top) of the bottle - THATS what is left on your engine parts at start-up!  (Again, its worse with hot metal than cold glass or plastic.)

The idea does make for a good comercial tho - doesn't it!

You're making the assumption that all "oils" are the same and have identical properties.  They do not.  Think about the different oils and greases you use for your guns.

Salad oil is completely different in composition than motor oil.  Salad oil is made of fatty acid esters.  Most mechanical lubricating oils are completely hydrocarbon (C and H atoms only).  The fatty acid esters in salad oil are chosen to have the flow properties that you want for a salad dressing.  No one would want salad dressing that flowed like motor oil.  Lastly, the attractive forces of salad oil to plastic is different than those of motor oil to metal.

Apples and oranges.

[DrAmazon]

Now's my chance to ask about the Amsoil bypass filters and accessories.

Does this have anything to do with Amway?

No it doesn't.  Completely different company.  Similar business model.  I have an AmsOil system and it has worked well for me so far (see previous post about my sig. other).

My filter system is in an odd place under the hood, and a filter got dented in a wreck.  Eventually it developed a leak.  The local vendor was very polite and sent me over to a nearby mechanic for installation.  Everyone involved was polite, efficient etc.  I found working with the AmsOil people to be very positive.

[Guest]

I really feel this falls into the "Gun fit to shooter for task intended" camp.

Engine designs, some are engineered, then when the engine don't work " right"  they holler at some Lube folks " Make something that will work in this thing".

Some engine designs have poor designs - period. Some were great, then TPTB started tweaking and messing to get  more out of them, meet marketing races, EPA...and whatever.

Running hotter, hot spots, metallurgy and you name it.

Enter Gas. Gas qualities have changed. Some areas get Reformulated, Sulfer contents vary, summer grade, winter grade.

It is my understanding the Phosphorus and Zinc levels in oils had to be reduced to keep catalytic converters from going on the bling.

To damn much of this stuff is regulated, be it .gov, .bunnyhugger,.treehugger, or whomever.   Somebody "says" and  creative marketing "sells" the reasons why these changes were made. Is 5w-20 "really that good or is it because  it gest better milage and a Mfg line overall CAFE comes down?  I mean the mean mpg of SUV and economy looks better on paper...

Sump, well in Europe they have bigger sumps and Petrol products are expensive!  Not only Petrol, but engine oils. Bigger sumps do a more efficient job, not only lubricating - but cooling as well. Fuels are different, both petrol and diesel.

Fuels do enter into this, the acids , fuel dilution of oil only driven in town , short hops, rarely getting up to temp vesrus one that is driven at highway speeds , up to operatiing temps.  Be it dino, semi dino, or syn dino.

Contaiminants like dust, salts from road salt. coastal areas , and all sorts of stuff contaiminant from poor filtration and change oil properties too. Dino and Synthetic.

WE have better basestocks and additive packages today than we did twenty years ago. The differences of Dino and Synthetic is narrowing.

Like I said, what engine design, how maintained and inpected, fuel, how driven, environment...

Gun fit to shooter for task intended. Inspect and maintain.

 Same principles applies to other life stuff.

Oil, Feed, tires, carpet cleaning, vet visits...too many variables.

If something sounds too good - probably is.

[SalukiFan]

Thanks to all of you who've taken the time to give your .02 on this issue - especially to richyoung who doubtless put a lot of time into writing up where the 3,000 mile interval came from, properties of motor oil and engine wear etc.

I think I'll probably go for a high-quality oil filter, conventional oil and possibly an additive like Slick 50 like I said before.  I might also consider lengthening the time between my oil changes although I wonder if my 3,000 mile interval hasn't helped my engine if my Fram oil filters have been of questionable value.  

Thanks for the info everyone!

[Guest]

Not a fan of adding anything to oil. Oil has base stocks and various additives such as Friction Modifiers, Anti-Wear, Extreme Pressure, Viscostity Index Improvers...etc. The oil is a balanced mixed chemistry.

Adding something to an oil is 1) going to/ may  cause additive clash 2) mess up the oil chemistry.

Then there is the fact DuPont specifically says to NOT use Teflon in motors. Refuses to sell it to folks that wanted to, some folks "obtained" teflon from other sources put into aftermarket oil stuff, and lawsuits ensued. FTC got involved and many of the 'Oil Add" stuff were sued for false advertising - pulled off the market.

Some companies ( or the name only) are back out there with " new and most wonderfullest chemistries" * Caveat Emptor*

Filter by Wix, Havoline / Chevron has great basetocks and add packages. Pennzoil or Castrol GTX works well too, depends on region and availablity.

Read the manual for specs for your temp range for oil weight [ 5w-30, 10w-30...]

Replace the PCV with factory - second choice is NAPA replacement. Never get a cheap PCV valve.

Don't overfill.

I just assisted with a classmates - AC Delco Fitler $2.69, Gallon jug of Havoline 5w-30 for $5.98 and one quart for $1.58.  Hers takes 4.5 quart with the filter. Advance Auto carries the Havoline, and takes old oil. Autozone next door to them has the AC Delco OEM filters.  NAPA was not on her/ our route or we would have bought the better Wix filter.

I figure being Oct, come January be time do change again. Lots of stop and go, short trips for her. Winter time and start up wear, fuel dilution...won't have the miles, better to change out the contaiminants early. For <$12 , why not? Cheaper than what some damages that can occur can cost.

Yeah I did the hard part. I put the PCV valve in [ OEM AC Delco] handed her wrenches, paper towels, oil filter and suggested she get back down and get the other jean pocket stained with oil to match the left one.

I put in the 1/2 quart of oil and let her pour in from the jug the othr 4 quarts...I did hold the funnel for her...being a gentleman and all.

While she was cleaning up the driveway, I drove onto a brick in a clean area of driveway and made sure drain plug snug , filter snug. I even let her buy me a hamburger after all was done and let her turn in the used oil.  

And you folks thought I was not a nice guy....

[Art Eatman]

My father spent his career with the Materials & Tests Division of the Texas Highway Department.  They ran tests on almost every additive know to man, to see if there was any benefit for the thousands of state vehicles.  He referred to these additives as "mouse milk", since no benefit was ever found.

In 1980 or so, some Slick 50 peddlers hired me to test their product.  I took a good-used Chevy sedan and ran a baseline test for idle speed and gas mileage.  Fresh oil change and new spark plugs and all that.  I then added Slick 50 per instructions.  No, the idle speed didn't increase.  No, the gas mileage didn't improve.  On the peddlers' instructions, I added more Slick 50.  No change from the baseline test.  I'd already been paid for the first phase of work, but when my report went to them they stiffed me for the balance due.

Mouse Milk.

Now, I HAVE found that STP will let you sell a car with a nearly-junk crankshaft...

Art

[Guest]

Art,
Yeah that works.
Helps to turn the volume knob to the right on the radio too, you know, to show how good the Resistor plugs do cut down on the static.
*ahem*

Real important that radio works, seems to be what folks really interested in...

Customer : car makes a noise
Mechanic : turn up the radio - ya won't hear it..

[Guest]

RE: adding stuff to oil

Subtitled : How to change a Volvo into a Mercedes.

TRUE story.

Banker fella has a Trophy wife. Ditsy as all get out, but she throws a great party and gets the Fancy doo dads sent on time , knows the right Caterers, and does the Thank You notes.

Volvo is the current one you are supposed to have being the Trophy Wife and all. I mean all the other Trophy Wives have 'em.

Well the Volvo is getting old it seems, I mean 13 months old is "old" has nothing to do with the fact the new Trophy Wife - mobile is that new Mercedes coming out...Besides  ...THE Jones, the Insurance  Guy has already put an order in for his Trophy Wife...

Banker is doing some serious Banking Business, out of town, entertaining clients at the Duck Club.

Volvo has this diagram showing something needs fluid. Great, Banker guy is out of town, the Dealer won't answer the phone at home, and the yard guy - how dare him take Sunday off ...

Hood gets raised, looks at diagram, she has a College Education and all...Looks under the hood, diagram, hood, uses the Copper Flower Water Spout [ shush dont' tell - it was supposed to be deocorative only] and puts water in .

Scrubs with bacterial hand soap and some kind of lotion.  after getting the hood back down.

I am sitting in the Country Club, sipping my coffee listening to this story. I set my cup down because I knew it was gonna get better...

Seems the diagram showed the windshield washer fluid was low.  Forget the fact the fluids are labeled with real big letters, that oil fill matched up about where the washer fluid goes looking under the hood.

Well she didnt' tell anyone - too mad to tell anyone, I think a nail got out of whack.

Drove it Sunday until Friday...that is when everything finally went 'nutzoid' - I mean she pulled into the Dealer, snagged a car to make the luncheon in the nick of time...

Just easier to buy a MB and gain serenity. Besides Big Folks coming to town and Trophy Wife needs to be happy.

There is no good was to ask a Trophy Wife how water got poured into the oil fill. Volvo folks didn't need it explained, and they  only went to Volvo Auto Tech School.

Being a Banker, who happens to have the MB dealer as a customer...you can get a MB trucked in from Dallas right fast.

Uh oh, the ladies are back with Trophy Wife leading the way. Us Boys need to go outside to smoke anyway.

Banker fella and the other couples men-folk do not look real happy, they perk up and put on fake smiles when the ladies return...

Saw the new Benz, cracking up laughing all the while...

I asked the valet where my truck was - he said he had to move it, Trophy Wife had remarked the mud dripping off of it was 'tacky'. He sprayed off my truck over near the Tennis Court, even rinsed off the mats, parked it "over there".

We laughed even harder.

[richyoung]

You would THINK that - but it doesn't work out that way in practice - the temperatures of the internal engine components range from that of the water jacket - about 200 degrees F - to in excess of 1000 degrees.  At those temps, ALL the oil, regardless of viscosity, runs off pretty fast - just like the chicken at KFC - only more so, because its metal - not food.  Try this experiment at home:  pick any oil-based salad dressing - (I prefer French or Thousand Island - your salad may vary...), tighten the cap, and TURN THE BOTTLE UPSIDE DOWN.  Go ahead and put it back in the fridg, (don't want to cause food poisoning for anybody!)  Come back 4 hours later, and see what, (if anything) is sticking to the bottom (now top) of the bottle - THATS what is left on your engine parts at start-up!  (Again, its worse with hot metal than cold glass or plastic.)

The idea does make for a good comercial tho - doesn't it!

You're making the assumption that all "oils" are the same and have identical properties.  They do not.  Think about the different oils and greases you use for your guns.

Salad oil is completely different in composition than motor oil.  Salad oil is made of fatty acid esters.  Most mechanical lubricating oils are completely hydrocarbon (C and H atoms only).  The fatty acid esters in salad oil are chosen to have the flow properties that you want for a salad dressing.  No one would want salad dressing that flowed like motor oil.  Lastly, the attractive forces of salad oil to plastic is different than those of motor oil to metal.


Apples and oranges.

I am profoundly aware of the difference - and of the fact that the difference isn't much.  The oil is a LUBRICANT - it can't STICK to things, because if it did, it would be an ADHESIVE, and glue the engine together - (Actually had this happen with a 1911 pistol once - some weird reaction betwen the gun oil and residue of the gun cleaning solvent glued it up tight - NEVER used those brands before - OR since).  I suggested the salad dressing because its easy to visualize.  Motor oil on hot metal runs off even faster - there is but the faintest trace of ANY oil on the moving parts at start-up - that's what Slick-50 and others of its ilk are supposed to address, remember?  I go back to when oil cam in actual tin cans - you never had to scape any off of the lid.  Gravity and heat WILL remove residual oil - jsu look at how ,long it takes your oil pressure gauge to come up when you crank it...

[mfree]

Actually high speed lubricants *must* stick or otherwise there'd be no "hydraulic wedge" effect.

Hydraulic bearings work because the oil sticks to the metal surfaces, and since one is spinning and the other is stationary the one that's spinning "drags" oil into the spots where the surfaces are closer, pushing them apart. This makes the shaft want to center itself in the bearing.

[Art Eatman]

"the one that's spinning "drags" oil into the spots where the surfaces are closer..."

Well, yeah, mfree, but it helps to have that oil pump pumping...

, Art

[richyoung]

Actually high speed lubricants *must* stick or otherwise there'd be no "hydraulic wedge" effect.

Hydraulic bearings work because the oil sticks to the metal surfaces, and since one is spinning and the other is stationary the one that's spinning "drags" oil into the spots where the surfaces are closer, pushing them apart. This makes the shaft want to center itself in the bearing.

That's a different kind of "stick" - it doesn't apply to a hot engine that has been shut off - there is NO oil on the parts to speak of at start-up - thats why so much of the engine wear occurs then.  It is also why the Silver Hill restoration facility coats the cylinders of aircaft engines with anti-friction coastings when they restore them for display - so little oil remains on the cylinder walls that routine re-positioning of the propellors for display purposes will score the cylinder walls without it - and thats using special "pickling" oils, not regular motor oil.  It also why ALL the engine rebuild manuals tell you to spin the oil pump with a drill before firing the engine for the first time - if oil, or even assembly lube, could be counted on to stick to the parts, this step wouldn't be needed before firing  up your 454 chevie...