What is our worst case scenario in this election?

[Manedwolf]

What I object to is your pushing the idea that us stupid military types just do whatever we're told when someone comes along and tells us that so-and-so is our enemy, even if that means firing on our own people. 

I have never said anything like that. I wouldn't doubt that there would be many people that would refuse.

So you think the same people who are currently dying for your freedoms would blindly attack you, in violation of their oath, if told to?

Charming.

[taurusowner]

I wonder if that sort of mentality, identifying more with the state you are in than with the country, still exists in the National Gaurd?

No.  It doesn't.  The National Guard is US Army through and through.  Same uniforms, same equipment, same ranks, same commanders, same training.  Guard soldiers go to Basic and are integrated with Active and Reserve.  All through Basic and AIT there is literally no distinction whatsoever.  Whenever the guard goes somewhere out of the US, which most units have, we are combined with Active units and fall under their authority.

The only real difference between Active and Guard is that we go to our houses between deployments.  Active stays on a base.  That's about it.  That National Guard is US Army.  That's how we train, that's how we fight, that's how we look, and that's how we think of ourselves.

[freakazoid]

So you think the same people who are currently dying for your freedoms would blindly attack you, in violation of their oath, if told to?

Charming.

Wow, way to go on not looking at what I was saying and overreact. 

No.  It doesn't....

And to think that some people will tell you that the National Gaurd is the militia that the 2A is talking about.

[Nick1911]

What I object to is your pushing the idea that us stupid military types just do whatever we're told when someone comes along and tells us that so-and-so is our enemy, even if that means firing on our own people. 

I have never said anything like that. I wouldn't doubt that there would be many people that would refuse.

So you think the same people who are currently dying for your freedoms would blindly attack you, in violation of their oath, if told to?

Charming.

So you think the same people who are currently dying for your freedoms would all disobey a direct order from their commanding officer, knowing that they will likely be tried for sedition if not outright treason?

I disagree.

[freakazoid]

I'm sure that you have heard the quote "What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789)

There is a reason for that belief.

[AZRedhawk44]

freak, you're scoring points with me.

That puts you on point 1.

[freakazoid]

lol, thanks, I imagine that I am still in the negatives though?

[Nick1911]

I'm sure that you have heard the quote "What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789)

There is a reason for that belief.

And what exactly is that reason? 

Do you believe that an informal militia, the private ownership of arms, is an effective way to keep freedom?  Even without the willingness to use them?  In a world where your bolt-action .243 is up against helicopters, nerve agents, tanks, and morter fire?  In a world where the media will demonize the resistance fighter, and teach the American people that this group is composed of terrorists who hate America, irregardless of whether constitution is on their side?

Maybe when that quote was written, it applied.  When we all had access to the same pointy sticks, and there was a relative balance of power between the armed civilian population and the force of the government.  But today, that power isn't balanced.  We still have pointy sticks, but the government has much more effective tools.

Governments gain and remain in power by monopolizing violence.  They want to be the only group who can apply violent force in their sovereign land.  If anyone else lays claim to the threat of violent force, they must be marginalized and eliminated, less they challenge the absolute authority of the government.  That absolute authority can't exist when the citizens retain an effective means to violent force.  The problem is, effective is a relative term.  What was effective in 1789 isn't effective today, because power is not balanced.  Our side (citizenry), has remained stagnant due to laws, but their side (gov't) has by far technologically overgrown that barrier.

[AZRedhawk44]

This is quickly devolving into a "teh gunz is not werks cuz thir gunz iz biggur" typical 2A thread.

Worst case scenario in the light of newest revelations?
1.  McCain/Obama both voted for the bailout.
2.  Bailout will probably pass.
3.  Senate will lose 5-10 republicans in voter backlash.


We'll get another AWB, whether Obama or McCain is in the chair.  It will classify all semiautomatic rifles into the same camp as machine guns and silencers.  It will retroactively grandfather all our existing weapons, but prohibit manufacture of more.  There will be a challenge on 2A/Heller grounds, but the dynamic of the SCOTUS will shift in the favor of the Dems by the time the case gets there.

There will be no revolution or resistance after the court challenge, because it's just "a little bit more restriction."

The frog's water is around 205 degrees now.  Not quite boiling, but he's already dead.

[Nick1911]

We'll get another AWB, whether Obama or McCain is in the chair.  It will classify all semiautomatic rifles into the same camp as machine guns and silencers.  It will retroactively grandfather all our existing weapons, but prohibit manufacture of more.  There will be a challenge on 2A/Heller grounds, but the dynamic of the SCOTUS will shift in the favor of the Dems by the time the case gets there.

There will be no revolution or resistance after the court challenge, because it's just "a little bit more restriction."

The frog's water is around 205 degrees now.  Not quite boiling, but he's already dead.

I'm not sure if we'll lose semi-autos.  (Probably semi-auto pistols, if that.)  I agree with everything else posted, however. 

[Perd Hapley]

All it will take is for them to be told that they are the enemy.

I concur that the National Guard is as described.  And definitely not much of a militia. 

[longeyes]

The question of loyalty to the Constitution  needs to be raised with the U.S. military, directly, and NOW.  I want to hear what they have to say.

[Perd Hapley]

Seriously?  Well, you can't just ask "Are you loyal to the Constitution?"  Besides being perceived as an insult, everyone is just going to say yes.  They already swore that effect.

If you want any meaningful information, you'll have to ask a number of questions.  That's a rather complicated set of questions to ask of so many thousands of people, most of whom have probably never read the document.  I don't say that as a slur on military folk.  I just don't think most people have read the whole thing. 

But if you mean that you'd like to hear military folk start talking about whether they would put down a revolution, or oppress people, that's something different altogether. 

[longeyes]

What we have in this thread is a lot of speculation.  It's time to get beyond that.

I realize active military men are uncomfortable talking poltiics on the record.

But, yes, in times like these, we need to know the minds of the people who might well be charged with directives that subvert the Bill of Rights.  Of course I didn't mean one question, I meant a series that get to the heart of the matter and they should be directed to military at all levels.

[Perd Hapley]

How about we just ask 'em if they could go on down to the Obama campaign, and deport them all?   

[longeyes]

America has become a country where far too many things are taken for granted.  Or haven't you noticed? 

Trust and verify.

[doncol]

If Texas secedes, who is going to stop them? I seriously doubt any U.S. military unit will fire a shot at a Texan army.

Now, I can't be sure about Obama's legion of "volunteers" though...

If what you stated above ever happens, I am pretty sure of what will happen to Obama's legion.   Well, any of them stupid enough to fight that is.

[freakazoid]

Worst case scenario in the light of newest revelations?
1.  McCain/Obama both voted for the bailout.
2.  Bailout will probably pass.
3.  Senate will lose 5-10 republicans in voter backlash.


We'll get another AWB, whether Obama or McCain is in the chair.  It will classify all semiautomatic rifles into the same camp as machine guns and silencers.  It will retroactively grandfather all our existing weapons, but prohibit manufacture of more.  There will be a challenge on 2A/Heller grounds, but the dynamic of the SCOTUS will shift in the favor of the Dems by the time the case gets there.

There will be no revolution or resistance after the court challenge, because it's just "a little bit more restriction."

The frog's water is around 205 degrees now.  Not quite boiling, but he's already dead.

Do you really think they will put one through that bad? If so I would think that some people will not take kindly to it at all, and sadly more than likely they not very many and will be wrote off as nutters and taken out. I for one would much rather be thought of as crazy and what not than to take something that so obviously violates the 2A.

[buzz_knox]

You just explained why they will go for one that bad:  a few will oppose it and will be considered crazy for doing so.

The Dems remember '94 better than we do.  They are going to insure that guns cease to be a thorn in their side, and the "Blue Dogs" are going to go along with them.  They'll throw us under the bus faster than Jim Webb threw his staffer under the bus.

[lee n. field]

   
What is our worst case scenario in this election?

Obama wins, and within 5 years we're faced with the choice of burning a pinch of incense, purely ceremonial you understand, to his divine O-ness or getting your SSN pulled.

[MicroBalrog]

   
What is our worst case scenario in this election?

Obama wins, and within 5 years we're faced with the choice of burning a pinch of incense, purely ceremonial you understand, to his divine O-ness or getting your SSN pulled.

And those people who opted out of SS laugh at you?