Author Topic: Palin starts hitting Obama  (Read 36947 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2008, 06:49:39 PM »
To the leftists, whatever is necessary to win is fine: they consider "terrorism" just another option.

Ack-shally, Joe, freakazoid is not quite a leftist, but then not quite right in the head, either.   =)   We tend to assume someone's a leftist, unless they're a doctrinaire rightist.  It is to be avoided. 
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freakazoid

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2008, 02:41:48 AM »
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The people who fought the revolution fought to protect themselves and their families and their livelihoods.  They fought to preserve their liberties.  They fought for the right to control their own lives and their futures.

To quote George Orwell from his book, The Road to Wigan Pier:

"They have never made it sufficiently clear that the essential aims of Socialism are justice and liberty."

In that section, Part 2, he is talking about the problems that he sees with how socialists are doing things and how they are viewed by the common person.

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Do you honestly not know the difference between war and terrorism?

I don't believe that the people who fought in the revolutionary war, is that something that should be capitalized?, where terrorists. But if we where to do what they did, we would be labeled terrorists.

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but then not quite right in the head, either. 

:P

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We tend to assume someone's a leftist, unless they're a doctrinaire rightist.  It is to be avoided.

You see that A LOT around here. :(

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To the leftists, whatever is necessary to win is fine: they consider "terrorism" just another option.

Really!? ALL "leftists" believe this huh,  ;/
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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BReilley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2008, 02:47:09 AM »
Now something that I think also needs to be said is that the WU was a Marxist-Leninist group. Which is a little to authoritarian for my tastes, I am an anarchist don't forget, so not everything they did I would agree with.

Ack-shally, Joe, freakazoid is not quite a leftist, but then not quite right in the head, either.   =)   We tend to assume someone's a leftist, unless they're a doctrinaire rightist.  It is to be avoided. 

During my high-school and college years, I found self-described anarchists and socialists/communists to be conspicuously similar in many ways.  Find a bunch of "true" Marxists and a bunch of "hardcore" anarchists and they'll dress the same, speak the same, blame the same people(Bush/Rove/"the right"/Amerika/The Man) for the world's woes...  They believe that The Institution is tilted in favor of those exploitative fat-cats at the expense of the proletariat, and if The People were "just given a chance" to realize their potential(whether through totalitarian control or anarchic self-government), things would be wonderful - dare I say, Utopian.  Most will be "educated", having plenty of classroom knowledge and readily quoting Nietzche, Marx, Orwell and Lenin.  Most will also have a lot of time to protest and attend rallies, the depth of their political convictions prohibiting any sort of capitulation to "the establishment" in the form of employment.  Dad, please send money, this revolution business doesn't pay so well...

...they all also made great efforts to ensure that the general populace knew "where they stand".  E.g., "I am an anarchist don't forget".  We know what you believe by what you say, not what title you give yourself.  I don't need to go around reminding people that "I am a libertarian".  They know by the way I act and the things I say.

I'm not sure how you can keep misunderstanding this. My whole point was that if he's so dangerous he shouldn't be allowed to walk free and possibly harm people. The fact that he IS NOT THAT DANGEROUS was the whole point.  If you'd like me to go over this again, I certainly can, but at that point I'll be convinced you're being intentionally obtuse.It's not like the guy yelled "Arrest him, bring him to trial, find him guilty of crimes he committed forty years ago, and legally execute him!". He just yelled "Kill Him!"

One need not be violent to be dangerous.  He is dangerous by virtue of his freedom.  His absence of remorse reinforces the notion that it's "OK" to do REALLY bad/destructive things, as long as you believe you have "the greater good" in mind.  THAT is dangerous.

He's admitted guilt... or I should say he's TAKEN OWNERSHIP of his crimes.  However, the Constitution ensures that no-one may be tried twice for the same crime(and certain statutes of limitation apply), and he seems also to have some friends who could be described as somewhat influential.  The fact is, there's nothing to be done about him within the law, and those who have a problem with him... well, we believe in the law, so we don't "Kill Him".

I don't know who they are.

 :rolleyes: The people who fought in the revolutionary war would be called "violent domestic terrorists" too. Preying on innocent victims, where do you get that?

The Rosenbergs gave secrets regarding atomic weapons to the Soviet Union.  Hiss and his wife were also spies for the USSR, although less-known.

As with any revolutionary/terrorist, history will be the Weathermen's judge, as it was the Founding Fathers' judge.  Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton and their associates have been vindicated... will Ayers and Dorhn?  Only if the "revleft" writes the textbooks.

If you call civilians "tools of an oppressive society," then they are legitimate targets.

The famous justification "there are no innocent victims" seems to fit the bill.  You know, we're all complicit by virtue of our inaction.

Note also that we're also now expected to empathize with Mr. Ayers, who is a "gentle soul" but has "Recently... been the "target of a smear campaign".

http://antiauthoritarian.net/NLN/?p=488

freakazoid

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2008, 03:16:14 AM »
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During my high-school and college years, I found self-described anarchists and socialists/communists to be conspicuously similar in many ways

Seeing as how communism is stateless and classless, anarchism is just one of the ways there.

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Most will be "educated", having plenty of classroom knowledge and readily quoting Nietzche, Marx, Orwell and Lenin.

I wish I could. I wonder how many hear can quote different founding fathers and such. I hardly think being educated is a bad thing.

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Most will also have a lot of time to protest and attend rallies,

I wish I had a lot of time to be able to, of course you don't have to have a lot of idle time to be able to. Just like you don't have to have a lot of idle time to go to a gun show, or a sporting event, or out hunting. But of course you don't care about that because your goal was to try to make us sound like a bunch of leachers.

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Dad, please send money, this revolution business doesn't pay so well...

Please,  ;/

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...they all also made great efforts to ensure that the general populace knew "where they stand".  E.g., "I am an anarchist don't forget".  We know what you believe by what you say, not what title you give yourself.  I don't need to go around reminding people that "I am a libertarian".  They know by the way I act and the things I say.

What does this have to do with anything? And when do we say things like that? Also how many people even know what a libertarian is, or have ever even heard of it?

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The Rosenbergs gave secrets regarding atomic weapons to the Soviet Union.  Hiss and his wife were also spies for the USSR, although less-known.

Ah thank you. Now, the USSR was state capitalist, hardly anything I would support. You won't find much love for the Soviet Union on revleft either.

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As with any revolutionary/terrorist, history will be the Weathermen's judge, as it was the Founding Fathers' judge.

I don't need history to judge for me. I know that the revolutionary war was right because it was for the idea of  liberty. Of course you also managed to skirt the real question, nice.

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The famous justification "there are no innocent victims" seems to fit the bill.  You know, we're all complicit by virtue of our inaction.

Yeah, we leftists all believe that,  ;/
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2008, 04:02:25 PM »
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Seeing as how communism is stateless and classless, anarchism is just one of the ways there.

So, Mr. Anarchist, (note, I am not calling you a liberal- liberals are different from leftists. Leftists are commited to some foolish idea such as socialism or, here illustrated, communism), I gave you a challenge earlier: have you even looked for Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit"?

After you're done avoiding that book, you can then avoid "The Road to Serfdom" by the same author.

Also, in note to your
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  Most will be "educated", having plenty of classroom knowledge and readily quoting Nietzche, Marx, Orwell and Lenin.


I wish I could. I wonder how many hear can quote different founding fathers and such. I hardly think being educated is a bad thing.

his point was that, in their education, they have made a point of focusing on socialists, while ignoring others. (Kind of like I'm accusing you of doing).

I have read Nietzche, Marx, and Orwell (I admit I've never touched Lenin). I am aware of their main principles. I, however, cannot quote them because I did not consider them worthy of that much attention. [Edit: George Orwell has works that most definitely are, though.]

I can, however, quote C.S. Lewis, Twain, Shakespeare, Adam Smith, Hayek, and many of the founding fathers. This is because their works ARE worth paying extra attention to.


I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

freakazoid

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2008, 04:22:16 PM »
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So, Mr. Anarchist, (note, I am not calling you a liberal- liberals are different from leftists. Leftists are commited to some foolish idea such as socialism or, here illustrated, communism),

And I thank you for being able to distinguish that there is a difference, :)

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I gave you a challenge earlier: have you even looked for Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit"?

After you're done avoiding that book, you can then avoid "The Road to Serfdom" by the same author.

It's not that I am avoiding it. I am currently in the middle of reading Thomas Pains Rights Of Man. Right now I am at the section, Declaration Of The Rights of Man And of Citizens: Be the National Assembly of France. Can't wait till I get to Part 2, as that seems like the part that will interest me the most. Part one focused more on the France stuff which kind of bored me, mostly because I don't know much about it's history so all that it is talking about I don't much understand. But something I have started to do lately is write down page numbers of parts that interest me, :) And when I am done with this book I shall move onto another book in my large stack of books to read. But I shall make a note to purchase your suggested reading material. :)

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I have read Nietzche, Marx, and Orwell (I admit I've never touched Lenin). I am aware of their main principles. I, however, cannot quote them because I did not consider them worthy of that much attention. [Edit: George Orwell has works that most definitely are, though.]

Well, thats more than me lol. The only Marx that I have read was the Communist Manifesto and I didn't particularly care for it, found it hard to read. Although that is probably because of the language used back then isn't used the same way now. George Orwell has some good stuff. Recently finished The Road to Wigans Pier, loved it with, marked lots of pages that I found interesting. Another author I have found that I like is Leo Tolstoy, read his Confession and Other Religious Writings, very well written.

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I can, however, quote C.S. Lewis, Twain, Shakespeare, Adam Smith, Hayek, and many of the founding fathers. This is because their works ARE worth paying extra attention to.

Only two that I have read was one by Shakespeare, because it was required in English class. And the other was Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, which was a very enjoyable read. Can't quote anything but when I finish the books in my to be read pile he is one that I plan on reading again and this time marking pages that I find interesting.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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roo_ster

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2008, 04:40:16 PM »
freak:

ANY 18th/19th century native-German-speaking writer is going to be a bear to read.  They could never use one word when 1000 would work.  They also tried to ram reality into their own philosophical framework and had to do some gymnastics to get the job done, calling for more dense verbiage.

Clausewitz was similar to Marx in that respect.  They desperately needed heavy-handed editors.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2008, 04:46:12 PM »
Are you serious in saying Marx isn't deserving of attention?
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makattak

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2008, 06:05:05 PM »
Are you serious in saying Marx isn't deserving of attention?

You will note I said "That much attention." The pro-noun "that" had the (hopefully) understood antecedent of "Reading and studying to the point that I am able to quote them at will."

Marx is most definitely worth attention: Know thy enemy.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2008, 06:05:57 PM »
Beyond that, some of Marx's historiographical points are rather valid, IMO.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #110 on: October 09, 2008, 06:31:33 PM »
Beyond that, some of Marx's historiographical points are rather valid, IMO.

Ironically, he understood most of economics. It was his failure to understand value that lead to his unbelievably stupid philosophy.

Funny how the people today no longer ascribe to the labor theory of value but still think communism is a good idea.

Excuse me, I'm going to go start digging a hole. It'll be worth thousands by the time I'm done with it!
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Tallpine

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2008, 07:01:24 PM »
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I wish I could. I wonder how many hear can quote different founding fathers and such. I hardly think being educated is a bad thing.

I always thought spelling was an essential part of being educated, but perhaps I am just a reactionary :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BReilley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #112 on: October 10, 2008, 12:14:07 AM »
Seeing as how communism is stateless and classless, anarchism is just one of the ways there.

I understand this, but communism and socialism are two different things.  Communism is the idea that all individuals will live/work/sacrifice for the good of the whole, and socialism is a command form of government ostensibly instituted in order to lead to communism.  True communism will never work on any appreciable scale, simply due to human nature.  People are primarily self-interested, which is why capitalism works so well and socialist governments always rot from the inside due to corruption.

Anarchism, as I see it, is the notion that people will get by just fine without government or laws - that people can be governed by their own values, honor, personal code or whatever.  Anarchism will never last long either, also due to human nature.  People, when left to themselves, will take for themselves at the expense of others.  See eastern Africa for examples.  There are "good" people of strong character and honorable values... but there are also people who are selfish(not the same as self-interested) and dishonest.

Communism and anarchism are ideals.  I'd call them noble ideals, in that they assume that people CAN be trusted to play nice with others, but they are ideals that have yet to be realized anywhere in human history.  I confess that I don't understand how anyone can truly believe in either one, having witnessed their many past failures under the leadership of brilliant men.

I wish I could. I wonder how many hear can quote different founding fathers and such. I hardly think being educated is a bad thing.

I can't pop off with quotes like some here can, at least not to the same extent.  I wasn't intending to degrade the importance of education.  What I was trying to get across is that schooling is not enough.  College teaches you all about history, philosophy and theoretical politics/government.  College shows you the possibilities, and you follow the path that you feel is right.  You get the rest of your life to find out if you made the right choices.

No-one is truly educated, though, who hasn't had a real job, paid real taxes and dealt with real problems.  THIS is why I mentioned the quoting bit.  It's all well and good to read and understand great philosophical works, but that must be tempered with real-world experience.

For this reason, I don't believe the voting age should be lower than 21.  You simply can't make a vote based on anything other than idealism or naivete until you've gotten pissed at where your tax dollars are going, or where our troops are being sent this time, or... know what I mean?  Schooling isn't enough.  :shrug:

I wish I had a lot of time to be able to, of course you don't have to have a lot of idle time to be able to. Just like you don't have to have a lot of idle time to go to a gun show, or a sporting event, or out hunting. But of course you don't care about that because your goal was to try to make us sound like a bunch of leachers.

I certainly don't have time for political activism or protesting.  I've got a job, a house, and a wife(and a couple of forums) which I consider better uses of my time.  I tend to think that most protests these days are outlets for mass whining, be they the "si se puede" illego-marches out here(roiling crowds comprised of a few decent people and an awful lot of "leachers") or the crowds that stand in front of abortion clinics(angry mobs comprised of a few well-meaning people and an awful lot of self-righteous people).  We live in a representative democracy, in which we may participate on many levels without resorting to protests, not the least of which is by voting.  We also live in a capitalistic society, in which we may vote with our dollars.  I offer you this: it takes a lot more time and hard work to effect changes through legitimate means, than it does to organize a protest to let the world know you're mad about something.

Please,  ;/

The "dad" thing was out of line, however I do stand by my overall point, which was that the individuals I'd described - the ideological purists - were not contributing members of society.  They were too busy being angry and oppressed to get a job.

What does this have to do with anything? And when do we say things like that? Also how many people even know what a libertarian is, or have ever even heard of it?

You took the time to remind us all that you are "an anarchist".  Just reminded me of people I used to know who were very public about their political leanings.  Most people don't really seem to know what it means to be a Democrat or Republican in the historical sense, let alone libertarian(small-l).  For that reason, I won't claim a political leaning unless pressed to put a name to my beliefs, and even then I don't identify with a party.  I believe what I believe and don't want a title.

I don't need history to judge for me. I know that the revolutionary war was right because it was for the idea of  liberty.

I understand and agree with you, but can you offer any constructive purpose to the activities of the Weathermen?  Their goal, as I see it, was to destroy liberty by suppressing the individual("We The Living") - a different sort of equality.  Their cause was not just.

Of course you also managed to skirt the real question, nice.

I didn't mean to skirt anything; I think you refer to the Founding Fathers/terrorists question.  Certainly, in British eyes, the American revolutionaries were viewed as insurrectionists.  I would expect, however, a different perspective from the majority of colonial citizens.  The Revolution also enjoyed a fair bit of popular support, whereas the Weathermen did not.

Yeah, we leftists all believe that,  ;/

That was implied, but not by me.  I was actually not intending to address you with that response, although you seemed to indicate some belief in the ends-justify-the-means thing when discussing the Brinks truck robbery and the definition of murder.

Excuse me, I'm going to go start digging a hole. It'll be worth thousands by the time I'm done with it!

:lol:

Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2008, 07:58:33 PM »
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Certainly, in British eyes, the American revolutionaries were viewed as insurrectionists.  I would expect, however, a different perspective from the majority of colonial citizens.  The Revolution also enjoyed a fair bit of popular support, whereas the Weathermen did not.

Quite.  There is a big difference between an actual popular revolt, which a sizable percentage  of the population participates in or supports, led by those who were already real leaders in their communities; and a few violent acts by an extremist fringe of zealots.  The latter is nothing but an ideologically-motivated crime wave. 

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #114 on: October 10, 2008, 08:06:33 PM »
So the Warsaw Ghetto fighters were an ideologically motivate crime wave?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2008, 08:10:00 PM »
No.  They weren't an an extremist fringe of zealots.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #116 on: October 10, 2008, 08:17:57 PM »
No.  They weren't an an extremist fringe of zealots.

So the morality of your action depends on your popularity?

(The WG partisans were opposed by most of the local Jews).
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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ArfinGreebly

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Disingenuous
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2008, 08:33:02 PM »
Micro, you're pushing the plausibility envelope.

You are now arguing simply because you can.

I'm not impressed.

If you cannot figure out the difference between people fighting real oppression and people fighting to impose their will on others, there's not much in the way of subtle nuance that's going to convince you.

"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2008, 08:37:19 PM »
No, my argument is very simple:

To qualify as a terrorist, you must primarily target innocent civilians. A person who targets soldiers or other armed agents of the government is an insurgent or a guerilla.

Even IF your cause is popular, or even just, targetting innocents makes you a terrorist.

The guys who lob rockets at Sderot are terrorists, though their cause is popular among their people (or at least more so than the cause of American Independence was among the colonists).


Whether your cause is just or not does not hinge on its popularity, either.  For example, the Soviet government enjoyed the support of the majority of its people, and yet some of them (very few) still resisted when the KGB came to take them to the camps. Their cause was perfectly just though not popular.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2008, 08:49:35 PM »
No-one is truly educated, though, who hasn't had a real job, paid real taxes and dealt with real problems.


blasphemy!! =D 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

De Selby

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #120 on: October 10, 2008, 09:05:02 PM »
No, my argument is very simple:

To qualify as a terrorist, you must primarily target innocent civilians. A person who targets soldiers or other armed agents of the government is an insurgent or a guerilla.

Even IF your cause is popular, or even just, targetting innocents makes you a terrorist.

The guys who lob rockets at Sderot are terrorists, though their cause is popular among their people (or at least more so than the cause of American Independence was among the colonists).


Whether your cause is just or not does not hinge on its popularity, either.  For example, the Soviet government enjoyed the support of the majority of its people, and yet some of them (very few) still resisted when the KGB came to take them to the camps. Their cause was perfectly just though not popular.

Succinct and accurate.

Acts of terorrism can be committed in pursuit of just causes, and sometimes legitimate use of force occurs in pursuit of unjust causes (for example, using force to attack terrorists who are fighting against a totalitarian state...)

Edited for typo
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 01:02:50 AM by shootinstudent »
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #121 on: October 11, 2008, 12:12:09 AM »
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To qualify as a terrorist, you must primarily target innocent civilians.

Well, that's reasonably close.

Terrorism is a specialized form of extortion.  It's an attack on an indirect vector using otherwise uninvolved, but important-to-the-target, individuals and groups.

The concept is simple:  you wish to harm or influence someone who is too large or powerful to attack directly; you discover whom it is that a) he values and feels he must protect, or b) is in a position to directly influence him (e.g. an electorate or customer base), or c) he is expected to represent or protect; you then systematically attack the largely defenseless dependent or influential people whom he is now obliged to somehow act to protect or lose face/lose family/lose power/etc., and so on.

In it's simplest form, it's "hand over the money, or the girl gets it."

It's not a long stretch from there to "comply with my wishes or I'll bomb more of your constituents/allies/family/students/whatever."

From the extortionist's point of view, the best outcome is that the group that's attacked, itself prevails on the target authority to negotiate/capitulate/compromise.  Also acceptable is that the target authority has an extreme attack of "conscience" and gives in rather than see more harm come to his [dependents].

The classic example is, of course, "targeting innocents" as mentioned, but innocence is not required, only "value-to-target" importance.

The "terror" label is one I didn't question until 2001.  What I found was that "terror" wasn't what most of America felt, or even horror for that matter, but rather a persistent anxiety about what was coming next.  This persistent anxiety is exhausting, as I can attest from first-hand experience and from direct observation.

While the objective may have been terror, what actually happens in a society like ours is even more ironic:  in an effort to reduce this anxiety, those in charge impose draconian "protective" measures, doing more economic and social damage than the actual attack could ever have hoped to do.

If I were a "terror" strategist, my objective would no longer be to "frighten" the population, but instead to play a kind of "policy billiards" with the government, seeing if I couldn't do something minor-but-scary, and get them to impose a whole new layer of liberty-encroaching rules so as to be seen to "do something!" about this "terrorism."

In the end, the strategy of indirect-vector attacks is effective to the degree that you can produce enough "worry" to get authorities to impose restrictions on the very people whose liberty they're supposed to protect.

You won't ever achieve chronic "terror," but plain old "worry" will do just fine on a large enough scale.


In an interesting alternate universe, I wonder what would have happened if, without any fanfare at all, the response to 9/11 had been simply to a) clear the site and rebuild, and b) quickly and quietly locate those responsible and exterminate them.

If the "national drama" of it all had been set aside, the damage repaired, and a limited-but-harsh military response carried out, I would imagine the attractiveness of such an approach ("terror") would have been subject to some serious review.

Of course, really, this all predicates on the idea that the populace would be disinclined to buy into the dramatics.  Sadly, in an era of "reality TV" and drama-for-its-own-sake, that was never going to happen.

Anyway.

I really shouldn't ramble like that.

"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #122 on: October 11, 2008, 12:22:43 AM »
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If I were a "terror" strategist, my objective would no longer be to "frighten" the population, but instead to play a kind of "policy billiards" with the government, seeing if I couldn't do something minor-but-scary, and get them to impose a whole new layer of liberty-encroaching rules so as to be seen to "do something!" about this "terrorism."

Early 20th century anarchists were exaclty like that vis-a-vis the world's monarchies. They believe that once the monarchs tightened the screws enough, the people would rise up and destroy them.

WRT 9/11 I believe that what happened had to happen - even if 9/11 itself didn't.

80 years (at least) of Progressive (read: big-government) policies have turned America into a society where the knee-jerk reaction to a crisis, at least from a political standpoint, is to demand that the government do something - anything! - to claim that the world 'changed' after Columbine, or 9/11, or the White House shooting in (IIRC) 1993.

The truth is that a 'crisis' on the scale of 9/11 is bound to reoccur, and if it doesn't, some other crisis does. Until the knee-jerk reaction is not altered you will have more and more 'emergency' laws passed with every 'emergency'.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #123 on: October 11, 2008, 01:28:00 AM »
I was not defining terrorism.  I was pointing out an obvious difference between the American revolutionaries and the Weathermen.  I didn't say it was the only or best distinction to draw between the two.

And, yes, the popularity of one's movement can affect its morality.  Resistance to oppression is one thing, but an actual revolution is another.  If one is going to pursue armed resistance to constituted authority (which both the Weathermen and the revolutionaries did) it matters whether the act(s) will be merely a lethal temper tantrum, or whether it will be constructive. 

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(The WG partisans were opposed by most of the local Jews).

That makes them neither extremists, nor zealots. 
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De Selby

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Re: Palin starts hitting Obama
« Reply #124 on: October 11, 2008, 01:30:31 AM »

That makes them neither extremists, nor zealots. 

So what does make an extremist or a zealot? The confident say so of someone on the internet?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."