Author Topic: More of the Same  (Read 7278 times)

agricola

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More of the Same
« on: October 06, 2008, 12:48:34 PM »
Quick post as I have to go to work, but perhaps the McCain campaign should be shouting this from the rooftops - Obama and Biden plan to recreate, in near-exact detail, the subprime mess - this time in businesses as opposed to housing:

Quote
Invest in Women-Owned Small Businesses:

Women are majority owners of more than 28 percent of U.S. businesses, but lead less than 4 percent of venture capital-backed firms. Women business owners are more likely than white male business owners to have their loan applications denied. Barack Obama and Joe Biden encourage investment in women-owned businesses, providing more support to women business owners and reducing discrimination in lending. To create greater opportunities for women business owners who would like to do business with the federal government, Obama and Biden will implement the Women Owned Business contracting program that was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, but has yet to be implemented by the Bush Administration.

Quote
Increasing Minority Access to Capital: Access to venture capital is critically important to the development of
minority-owned businesses. Yet there has been a growing gap between the amounts of venture capital available
to minority-owned small businesses compared to other small businesses. Less than 1 percent of the $250 billion
in venture capital dollars invested annually nationwide has been directed to the country’s 4.4 million minority
business owners. And in recent years, there has been a significant decline in the share of Small Business
Investment Company financings that have gone to minority-owned and women-owned businesses. In order to
increase their size, capacity, and ability to do business with the federal government, and to compete in the open
market, minority firms need greater access to venture capital investment, as well as greater access to business
loans. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will strengthen Small Business Administration programs that provide
capital to minority-owned businesses, support outreach programs that help minority business owners apply for
loans, and work to encourage the growth and capacity of minority firms.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

Good to see they have learned their lesson! 

"Discrimination in lending"   ;/

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Manedwolf

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 12:54:43 PM »
The definition of madness is to repeat the same actions, expecting different results.

makattak

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 02:06:10 PM »
The definition of madness is to repeat the same actions, expecting different results.

A definition of madness. There are plenty.

I'd suggest that seeing gargoyles telling you to dip apples in paint and eat them would qualify as another.

(Though I'd consider that person less harmful to me)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Manedwolf

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 02:08:17 PM »
Alright, then it's the definition of a democrat.

"No, socialism will work this time! Really!"

makattak

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 02:14:01 PM »
Alright, then it's the definition of a democrat.

"No, socialism will work this time! Really!"

 =D

I really shouldn't be laughing, but it really is funny. People should read more Hayek.

His book "The Fatal Conceit" is perfect, though he didn't get to see how far it goes.

He explains why socialism can never work. It's excellent: even with perfect individuals, unless someone is omniscient, socialism is doomed to fail.

He didn't get to see how far the conceit goes: "Oh sure, we know those people before us failed at socialism, but the problem is, I wasn't in charge! Once I'm in control, everything will work out fine!"

And then there's the people who aren't even aware that it has failed repeatedly.

The scariest person in the world to me is the one convinced that the world cannot function without his knowledge and skills.

Personally, I'm with Washington: not only can the world (country) get along without me in charge, it is better for the country if it does so. (Excuse me while I go spit on FDR's grave).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 02:48:36 PM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AZRedhawk44

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 03:09:43 PM »
Just keeps making my guns and ammo that much more valuable, in dollars and applicable need.

Kinda sad.
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freakazoid

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 03:17:05 PM »
Quote
He explains why socialism can never work. It's excellent: even with perfect individuals, unless someone is omniscient, socialism is doomed to fail.

Sure,  :rolleyes:

:P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 03:26:25 PM by freakazoid »
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 03:31:11 PM »
Quote
He explains why socialism can never work. It's excellent: even with perfect individuals, unless someone is omniscient, socialism is doomed to fail.

Sure,  :rolleyes:

:P

Ahh, thank you for being the predictable liberal.

Dismiss everything out of hand if it disagrees with your ideas. It's so easy, you don't even have to find a flaw in the logic, just say "That's wrong."

How about I tell you that Roosevelt caused the Great Depression to become GREAT rather than a simple depression? I really enjoyed when I laid out the facts and figures to a liberal and he said "I just don't believe that."

I'll bet you won't even consider reading the book, since it disagrees with you.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 03:40:11 PM »
Quote
He explains why socialism can never work. It's excellent: even with perfect individuals, unless someone is omniscient, socialism is doomed to fail.

Sure,  :rolleyes:

:P

Hey, just because it's been a miserable failure and led to the most brutal regimes in the history of mankind doesn't mean it won't work this time! Don't ask me why, just go read rev.left's forums.......
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buzz_knox

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2008, 04:44:50 PM »
Just keeps making my guns and ammo that much more valuable, in dollars and applicable need.

Kinda sad.

If things continue, your guns and ammo may be worth nothing more than a bullet when you fail to turn them in as ordered.

Perd Hapley

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2008, 05:32:41 PM »
Quote
He explains why socialism can never work. It's excellent: even with perfect individuals, unless someone is omniscient, socialism is doomed to fail.

Sure,  :rolleyes:

:P


freak,

I presume the socialism you prefer is more that of a small commune, than that of a national economy with a socialist state.  However, you should check out Sowell's Basic Economics.  He explains why command economies are designed to fail, because too few bureaucrats at the top are making too many decisions, about too many things they don't know enough about. 

By contrast, in a free market, decisions are made by the people on the ground, at the front lines, who have the information about what is really going on at their level. 

Not to mention that the laborer in a socialist commune has no incentive to work harder than anyone else.  Which doesn't work.  Get it?  Doesn't work? 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2008, 07:29:01 PM »
i was a socialist once  then i turned 14 and got a job. cured me of it.  leaving home helped too. and i mean really leaving home sucking from the teat at college doesn't count.  and student loans/grants is a teat
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

BReilley

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2008, 11:18:15 PM »
Quote
...Barack Obama and Joe Biden encourage investment in women-owned businesses, providing more support to women business owners and reducing discrimination in lending. To create greater opportunities for women business owners who would like to do business with the federal government...

How does "providing more support to" anyone "reduce" discrimination?

Fools.

crawdaddyjim

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2008, 11:46:41 PM »
Freakazoid,

 Take it from a guy who was a Socialist for most of his life.

Quote
Robert Heilbroner, a socialist for most of his adult life, was the Norman Thomas Professor of Economics (emeritus) at the New School for Social Research and author of the best-seller The Worldly Philosophers. He died in 2005.

 What he had to say:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Socialism.html

Quote
Socialism—defined as a centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production—was the tragic failure of the twentieth century. Born of a commitment to remedy the economic and moral defects of capitalism, it has far surpassed capitalism in both economic malfunction and moral cruelty. Yet the idea and the ideal of socialism linger on. Whether socialism in some form will eventually return as a major organizing force in human affairs is unknown, but no one can accurately appraise its prospects who has not taken into account the dramatic story of its rise and fall.

 How economies are supposed to work in real life:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/FreeMarket.html

Quote
About the Author

Murray N. Rothbard, who died in 1995, was the S. J. Hall Distinguished Professor of Economics at the University of Nevada in Las Vegas. He was also the leading Austrian economist of the last half of the twentieth century.

 Why it works and Socialism doesn't:

Quote
Both parties undertake the exchange because each expects to gain from it. Also, each will repeat the exchange next time (or refuse to) because his expectation has proved correct (or incorrect) in the recent past. Trade, or exchange, is engaged in precisely because both parties benefit; if they did not expect to gain, they would not agree to the exchange.

Jim

freakazoid

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 02:23:18 AM »
Quote
Ahh, thank you for being the predictable liberal.

Dismiss everything out of hand if it disagrees with your ideas. It's so easy, you don't even have to find a flaw in the logic, just say "That's wrong."

ROFL, liberal,  ;/ You have presumed wrongly about my intentions. For the most part my post was in jest, notice the ":P" I did that because I know that I am looked down upon because of my beliefs so I did the what would be viewed as the stereotypical thing. And also I didn't go into more detail because I was short on time, had to go to work. I know I know, an anarchist that has a job!? But they are all supposed to be smelly hippies that are lazy with no jobs. :O :P

Quote
Hey, just because it's been a miserable failure and led to the most brutal regimes in the history of mankind doesn't mean it won't work this time!

Of course they weren't/aren't communist/socialist. So that kind of kills that. That is like saying that the US idea of freedom has failed because of what this country has turned into today. It is incorrect and there is WAY more to it than that.

Quote
Don't ask me why, just go read rev.left's forums.......

:P

Quote
I presume the socialism you prefer is more that of a small commune, than that of a national economy with a socialist state.

More or less. It really depends on what is being meant by "socialism" because it has many meanings.

Quote
Not to mention that the laborer in a socialist commune has no incentive to work harder than anyone else.  Which doesn't work.  Get it?  Doesn't work?

This is based on a false premise, that people only do things for money and greed. This isn't true. One of the best examples I think would be the volunteer firefighter. They don't get paid and they risk there very lives. There is a thread that gets into this very thing on... you guessed it, revleft.com =D http://www.revleft.com/vb/another-serious-question-t90122/index.html

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Socialism—defined as a centrally planned economy in which the government controls all means of production—

Bad definition, incomplete.

Quote
was the tragic failure of the twentieth century. Born of a commitment to remedy the economic and moral defects of capitalism, it has far surpassed capitalism in both economic malfunction and moral cruelty.

Nothing to attack, doesn't explain why.

Quote
Both parties undertake the exchange because each expects to gain from it. Also, each will repeat the exchange next time (or refuse to) because his expectation has proved correct (or incorrect) in the recent past. Trade, or exchange, is engaged in precisely because both parties benefit; if they did not expect to gain, they would not agree to the exchange.

Doesn't explain why it works and "socialism" doesn't.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »
Alright then freakazoid.

You don't want to accept our arguments.

I'll turn the tables on you: if you are telling people to go elsewhere for better information, I will do the same.

Read "The Fatal Conceit."

Hayek is a far better teacher than I could be.

However, here's the reason socialism can't work:

Prices are necessary because they contain information.

Information such as there has been a hurricane in Sao Paolo, which happens to be a major producer of sugar. In order to make sure people who need sugar get enough, we need to start conserving the sugar we have now until the sugar producers can get back on their feet.

In a socialist economy, SOMEONE has to say: ok, everyone- less sugar this month until Sao Paolo gets things back together.

Here's the thing- for every single good (cars, steel, gasoline, salt, towels, linen, cotton), any disruption like this has to be accounted for. It makes it even more difficult when you have goods with multiple inputs: someone has to decide how to use the steel, gasoline, plastics, etc... that make up a car.

The beauty of the free market is that no one has to know any of this information. All they have to know is: hey, the price of sugar went up. I guess I can wait until next month to buy some to replenish my stock.

Unless God is in charge of your socialist society, it is doomed to fail; even with perfect individuals.

This is discounting the fact that people are fallen, sinful creatures. (If you claim to be a christian, you cannot discount this)

The pilgrims discovered this same thing. First year here, they had everything in common. I seriously doubt you could find a closer group of people more reliant on each other than those first pilgrims who suffered so much together.

The result? They almost all starved because they didn't grow enough food.

Next year each family had their own plot to plant and work.

They had more than enough food and enough to share with the natives that next year.


Can you live in a socialist commune? Yes.

Can you survive without leeching off of a free market that does all the heavy lifting (dealing with price infomation) for you? Yes as well.

However I have no desire to live like that: I like modern technology.

If you do, there's a christian sect already who does that: the Amish.

In fact, since they DO use prices and markets, their standard of living is far beyond whatever a commune could create, so... you still wouldn't be a "true socialist."


I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 09:55:15 AM »
Quote
Prices are necessary because they contain information.

Word.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

crawdaddyjim

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 09:52:44 PM »
Your lack of maturity is showing. Quotes are excerpts from the posted links. Go read the linked articles for complete arguments against your assertions.

I am sure you won't. Due primarily to your tendency to troll.

But I tried anyway.

Jim 

longeyes

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 11:37:30 PM »
Interesting discussion, but a bit rarified.

For most Americans "history" is who won the last Dancing with the Stars contest.

I think we should expect the era of madness to grow and accelerate given that the moral ground of everything we hold sacred has been systematically shattered.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:39:05 AM by longeyes »
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freakazoid

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 02:05:01 AM »
Quote
I'll turn the tables on you: if you are telling people to go elsewhere for better information, I will do the same.

Read "The Fatal Conceit."

Great, another book to add to my pile,  :lol:

Quote
Quotes are excerpts from the posted links. Go read the linked articles for complete arguments against your assertions.

Did it cross your mind that maybe I had a job that I had to get to and therefor didn't really have the time to go to the link and read everything? I'll try to read some of it tomorrow. Depending on how much there is to read I can't say if I will get to read the whole thing. I have to work 3-Midnight. I love closing, hardly any customers which leaves me plenty of time to read a book, currently working on Thomas Pains Rights of Man, :)

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I am sure you won't. Due primarily to your tendency to troll.

Please,  ;/ If I was trolling I wouldn't bother to actually attempt to debate.

Quote
For most Americans "history" is who won the last Dancing with the Stars contest.

Such sad times we live in, :(
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

De Selby

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 02:12:31 AM »

Here's the thing- for every single good (cars, steel, gasoline, salt, towels, linen, cotton), any disruption like this has to be accounted for. It makes it even more difficult when you have goods with multiple inputs: someone has to decide how to use the steel, gasoline, plastics, etc... that make up a car.

The beauty of the free market is that no one has to know any of this information. All they have to know is: hey, the price of sugar went up. I guess I can wait until next month to buy some to replenish my stock.


There are several problems with this argument.

First, you can have prices in a communist economy.  The decisionmakers behind the price will be different, obviously, but you can still communicate via price to the consuming public.

Second, some of that information concealed in the price may not be desireable to leave out.  For example, the outrageous price of a feathered hat might be due to the impending extinction of the national bird....I think most reasonable people in a country would want to have a say in what happens with that bird and with the commerce that employs it.  A more sinister and true to life example comes in falling prices-sometimes the lowered price of a shoe tells you that the value of the lives of the workers making that shoe has plummetted; since the factory went to some hole where it can run machinery that maims and kills easily replaceable workers, you get the same shoe at a lower price. 

But did that lower price tell you everything you want to know about the shoe you're buying?

Communists can use pricing to manage their economy, and pricing doesn't always convey the information that most would want to be conveyed.

Edit: There is the added problem that much of the efficiency of pricing may be illusory-if you don't know what drives the price of sugar, for example, and you need sugar...you can't plan your usage and investments accordingly.  So in the real world, you actually do need to know about the hurricanes and the factories and all of those other things that drive the price to function anyway...otherwise you would find it impossible to carry out any sort of plan for your own production/consumption, as unexpected changes in price will monkeywrench the works.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 02:20:06 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

freakazoid

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 02:46:00 AM »
Back to how Obama would recreate the subprime mess with businesses...
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2008, 06:52:56 PM »
There are several problems with this argument.

First, you can have prices in a communist economy.  The decisionmakers behind the price will be different, obviously, but you can still communicate via price to the consuming public.

Second, some of that information concealed in the price may not be desireable to leave out.  For example, the outrageous price of a feathered hat might be due to the impending extinction of the national bird....I think most reasonable people in a country would want to have a say in what happens with that bird and with the commerce that employs it.  A more sinister and true to life example comes in falling prices-sometimes the lowered price of a shoe tells you that the value of the lives of the workers making that shoe has plummetted; since the factory went to some hole where it can run machinery that maims and kills easily replaceable workers, you get the same shoe at a lower price. 

But did that lower price tell you everything you want to know about the shoe you're buying?

Communists can use pricing to manage their economy, and pricing doesn't always convey the information that most would want to be conveyed.

Edit: There is the added problem that much of the efficiency of pricing may be illusory-if you don't know what drives the price of sugar, for example, and you need sugar...you can't plan your usage and investments accordingly.  So in the real world, you actually do need to know about the hurricanes and the factories and all of those other things that drive the price to function anyway...otherwise you would find it impossible to carry out any sort of plan for your own production/consumption, as unexpected changes in price will monkeywrench the works.

>.<

<head in hands>

Our public schools are to blame, I'm sure...

Your arguments are simply wrong.

You can have prices in a socialist economy, very true. As you noted, they would be set by some decision maker.

The problem is that the prices then are simply due to someone's whim.

There are thousands of bits of information that go into the pricing of one single good. That "decision maker" cannot know all the things necessary in order to price it. PERIOD. Full stop.

What happens then? Goods go to waste. People starve because they can't get food because the materials needed for new tractors were used to build a sewer system in east mongolia where 8 people live.

Was the sewer system a good thing? Most assuredly.

Was it more important than growing food so people don't starve? I seriously doubt it.

This is the problem you seem to be unable to grasp: if you take the market out of the prices, things like shortages, changes in demand, surpluses get ignored.

You end up with Marie Antoinette' s statement: "Let them eat cake"

Why did she say this? Not because she didn't care (as people assume). It's because she didn't understand markets. The king had put price controls on bakers in France and when she was told that the peasants couldn't get bread, she said "Let them eat cake" because the king's decree had fixed prices. (I unfortunately cannot remember offhand how it was fixed).

You know what the lower price tells me about the shoe I am buying? It tells me someone can afford a shoe that could not before. It tells me that someone is making better use of the same materials.

As for you having to know how the price of sugar is affected- totally untrue.

If you plan on investing in sugar, it is in your best interest to know how it is affected.

In fact, every person learns a great deal about their specialization (case in point, mine is economics) and is able to tell you a great deal about prices there.

However, I'm willing to bet you cannot tell me what drives the price of silicon chips. I'll bet you can guess, but I know by the fact you are posting that you rely on them. How can you function and plan without knowing what happens to silicon?

I'll also bet you have no idea what goes in the prices of the battery in your car, how the different chemicals are mined and where they come from. Yet you can drive without problem.

INVESTORS will know information about certain prices. They are necessary to equalize prices and prevent massive shortages. It is not necessary for someone in their daily business to know why the prices change.

Also- if you are concerned about how a company is treating their employee: refuse to buy their product. Unless someone has chained that employee to his station or threatened his family, he is working there because it is better than any other option he has.

If you don't like that, I suggest you give him charity rather than suggesting the government should put a gun to my head and tell me I have to support him or else. (Which is what socialism does- try not paying taxes in a socialist economy).
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

De Selby

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 12:29:41 AM »
mak,

It looks like you are shifting from "efficient information transfer and use" to "right/wrong" on this.  That's a different argument, and one which the magic of pricing and free markets will not answer.

As to prices, you said:

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INVESTORS will know information about certain prices. They are necessary to equalize prices and prevent massive shortages. It is not necessary for someone in their daily business to know why the prices change.

That's the point-the price doesn't convey the information you need to know in order to efficiently use and supply the product.  Indeed, the consumer price (the one that you rightly point out we don't need to predict) is determined by the information that the investors and manufacturers acquire, and not the other way around.  The price doesn't convey information that is need to supply and allocate the product; rather, the information that goes into setting the price with respect to availability and cost (ie, your hurricane example) is what sets the price for those whose livelihoods don't depend on the product.

Your example with silicon and computers is a bit misguided-yes, consumers get away with not knowing what drives prices in a stable economy.  But many people most certainly did not get away with failing to understand what drives gas prices, home prices, and energy prices in the past year....if the computer prices begin to shift by the same margins, you can bet that a focus on the factors that drive prices will become necessary to keep us typing.

When you shift to explaining socialism, you say:

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You can have prices in a socialist economy, very true. As you noted, they would be set by some decision maker.

The problem is that the prices then are simply due to someone's whim.

Again, this is not a stone feature of socialist economies.  You could, for example, just have everyone in the country vote on all the prices/allocations of resources.   That would avoid the problem of having the sewers built for 8 folks out in Mongolia, but it would come with its own problems.

As for what constitutes "efficient" use of resources, that is also a question of value and not of numbers-using wood to build yachts for one person who can pay exhorbitant fees for wood that might otherwise build a house for ten homeless people isn't necessarily the use that generates the greatest good, as per your Mongolian sewer example, but certainly it happens in free market economies. 

If you define "efficient" as "resource goes to the person with the most capability pay for it", then yeah, it makes sense....but you've not really done anything there besides redefine "efficient" to mean "capitalist."  You still have the Mongolia sewer problem-it's just that people with lots of dollars can blow the resources of the country on waste, instead of having it accidently blown on the mongolian sewer.

We pay taxes, and are forced to pay certain prices (ie, for necessities) in any economy-socialist or otherwise.

I'm not supportive of socialism, btw, but I don't think you've made a terribly convincing case against it. 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

crawdaddyjim

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Re: More of the Same
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2008, 12:11:53 AM »
Zoid,
 
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Did it cross your mind that maybe I had a job that I had to get to and therefor didn't really have the time to go to the link and read everything? I'll try to read some of it tomorrow. Depending on how much there is to read I can't say if I will get to read the whole thing. I have to work 3-Midnight. I love closing, hardly any customers which leaves me plenty of time to read a book, currently working on Thomas Pains Rights of Man

 I too have a job and go to school at night as well as run a household with three children. At the age of 44 I have precious little time to spend doing things I want to do. This site is one of those things. The articles linked to are not long on words. But have a depth of knowledge not commonly seen on the interwebs. It will do you a considerable good to read them.

 Just a suggestion as I have never met you and expression across the written medium done hastily can lead to wrong assumptions. But you come across as a snotty little know it all punk. I am sure that is not the case. But do look at your word choice and sentence structure if writing is something you want to be taken seriously at.

Jim