Author Topic: Motorcycles in the military  (Read 10758 times)

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,217
  • APS Risk Manager
Motorcycles in the military
« on: October 25, 2008, 09:29:47 PM »
We talked about this just a few weeks ago, in the context of the MSF classes.  This article was published in the 10/25/08 edition of the NYT:

October 26, 2008
For Some in the Military, Danger Is Seen Off Duty, Too
By SARAH M. RICHARDS

WASHINGTON — Whether Seaman Greg Harm knows it or not, the military is worried about him. And it is not because of what he does when he is working as an aviation technician stationed at Andrews Air Force Base.

It is what he is doing when he is not at work: riding a 2003 Kawasaki Ninja motorcycle that can reach speeds of 160 miles per hour.

So many members of the armed forces have been dying on sport bikes like the Ninja that the Navy and Marines have made special training mandatory for sport bike riders this year. In one weekend in September, the Navy lost four men in sport bike accidents.

Some military officials are concerned that industry pressure to sell motorcycles and lax state licensing are allowing riders with poor skills on the road.

Dale Wisnieski, a former motorcycle police officer in Virginia who manages the Navy program, began developing it last year with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, an industry financed nonprofit group that oversees motorcycle training in most states.

“We’ve got machines right now that are governed at 187 miles per hour that you can buy on a showroom floor in our country and not even have a motorcycle license to buy it,” Mr. Wisnieski said.

Seaman Harm, 23, who returned in March from four months in Afghanistan, paid $2,900 for his motorcycle.

“I always wanted one and my friend was selling it for cheap, so I bought it,” Seaman Harm said. “I love the rush, having it.”

He was participating in the new program, held at the Anacostia Naval Station here.

In the last 12 months, 50 of the 58 sailors and marines killed on motorcycles were on sport bikes, which are faster and easier to maneuver than their cruiser counterparts. The Army, which also has a training program, lost 36 soldiers in sport bike accidents in the same time period.

The accidents follow a pattern: excessive speed, poor cornering and insufficient braking.

Tracy Martin, who runs a private riding program aimed at high-performance motorcycles, said an Air Force safety official told him that he could predict who was going to die next.

“He said it would be a guy under 25, working in maintenance, he’d have a sport bike, and he’d own it for about a month,” Mr. Martin said. “He said, ‘The only thing I don’t know is his name.’ ”

Concern in the military grew so great that Navy officials went to Irvine, Calif., last November to meet with members of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Collaboration among Navy, Army and Motorcycle Safety Foundation officials led to the creation of the Military Sportbike Rider Course a few months later.

Military personnel already have stricter motorcycle regulations than civilians. To take a motorcycle on base, riders must have at least passed the beginners’ course offered by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. They must also wear helmets, regardless of state law.

Nevertheless, officials say, many simply ride without a motorcycle license when they are off duty.

During the recent sport bike class at Anacostia, two trainers stood in the middle of a large concrete lot as military helicopters buzzed overhead. The 12 students were either military personnel or civilians working for the Navy.

The riders had spent the morning in a classroom discussing issues like risk assessment and were now practicing braking and cornering.

“We’re really trying to find a way to touch these soldiers and sailors and get a handle on this because it’s a shame,” said Bridget Hunke, one of the instructors. “They go overseas, go into combat, come back, and they get killed on a motorcycle.”

Some officials theorize that military personnel returning home from a war zone turn to sport bikes for an adrenaline rush. “How long does it take you after you leave that neighborhood to kind of loosen up?” said Wayne Miller, a retired marine who ran motorcycle safety at Camp Pendleton. “Can you imagine being in an environment for eight months, not knowing whether you’re going to come home or not, and then having to flip a magic switch?”

Military officials say that they have not been able to link combat experience to sport bike fatalities, and that some of the deaths have involved people with no combat experience.

Mr. Wisnieski said that there had been a rise in sailors registering sport bikes and that it was difficult to pinpoint a specific cause behind the fatal accidents.

“Individuals have served overseas two and three times,” Mr. Wisnieski said. “So at what point do they buy their motorcycle? Do they buy it after the first time? Second? Or third?”

Of the 17,000 estimated sport bike riders in the Navy and Marines, roughly 1,600 have taken the new course. One of the four sailors killed in September was a recent graduate.

“The military sport bike course is not the silver bullet to our problem,” Mr. Wisnieski said.

Motorcycle licenses are relatively easy to obtain in the United States. In other countries, including Britain, beginning riders are generally restricted to smaller, less powerful motorcycles.

Ray Ochs, the director of training systems at the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, is doubtful that stricter licensing would reduce fatalities. “They don’t have any better record — at least it’s not documented — than we do in this country” Mr. Ochs said.

Mr. Miller said that he, too, was wary of government intervention but that he thought limiting beginners to smaller motorcycles might help reduce fatalities. “What that does is allow riders to stay alive long enough to buy a third, fourth and fifth bike,” Mr. Miller said. “What a novel idea.”
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2008, 09:52:27 PM »
Quote
“So at what point do they buy their motorcycle? Do they buy it after the first time? Second? Or third?”

When do they buy their crotch rockets?

I'll tell you when.

The day after they get their first 5-figure re-enlistment bonus. If they re-upped in a Hostile/Combat Zone, it's tax-free.

All that money's burning a hole in their pockets, and they go out and buy the biggest bike they can (or actually, can't) swing.

Then they proceed to deconstruct both themselves and their new toys at a tremendous rate of speed.

Been there, witnessed that, did the casualty notification bit.  I've watched as some depart the base, pull over within yards of the gate they just went through, then take their helmets off and attach them to the seat helmet pegs. 

And yes, it's alarming the DoD.  This isn't the last we'll hear about the problem, either. 

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2008, 09:58:24 PM »
i'd like to see graduated licenses for bikes. if i remember right thats how they do it in japan

http://www.thejapanfaq.com/bikerfaq-menkyo.html
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2008, 10:16:37 PM »
Quote
"A motorcycle is much cheaper to run than a car. It takes only half a litre of fuel to get from your house to the scene of your first fatal accident. So the lifetime cost of running your new bike is just 50p" -Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear

Paragon

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2008, 10:25:35 PM »
This has been mandatory on Camp Lejeune for quite some time now.  I've seen it more than I'd like to: either a drunk Marine on Friday night or one showing off for his buddies out in Jacksonville wind up in a bad situation.  Honestly, I don't think the courses make much of a difference.  Just like Gewehr said, when you give an 18-20 year old a bunch of money (7 months in Iraq can build up a great savings account for a young kid), bad things are going to happen.  It's not just limited to bikes, but due to their dangerous nature, more people get hurt on them.  When I left Lejeune earlier this year, I knew of a Lance Corporal (E-3) who was driving a Viper around base that he was paying for with deployment money. 

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2008, 10:39:47 PM »
Getting more folks out of the SUV and on to something more frugal than a FSP has costs that can not be accounted for in mere dollars, as studies of auto size and traffic fatalities attest.

OTOH, who'd a thunk that the 18-25 male demographic might have a higher proportion of risk-takers than other?
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,590
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2008, 11:05:47 PM »
Quote
I've watched as some depart the base, pull over within yards of the gate they just went through, then take their helmets off and attach them to the seat helmet pegs. 

I have done CPR in the fast lane of the road within 200yds of the main gate at NAS Moffett Field to someone who did exactly that.

Is it a good thing if stuff comes out of the ears and nose with every compression?



I don't think so!!


The left rear turn signal was in pretty good shape though.


bob

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2008, 11:10:01 PM »
Here at Ft Bliss, don't know how they can enforce it, but they "forbid" anyone from purchasing a bike for the first 6 months they are back from a deployment, for their active duty troops.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

RaspberrySurprise

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,020
  • Yub yub Commander
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 03:05:43 AM »
If my million dollar investments keep splattering themselves months after training I'd get pretty pissed too.
Look, tiny text!

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,876
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2008, 03:08:27 AM »
Motorcycle Consumer News just had an editorial on this, seems Dave Searle the editor was in the hospital and the guy next to him was a young soldier messed up from a bike crash. He was thinking of ways to help get these guys some training so their skill level was increased.

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,274
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2008, 10:45:46 AM »
Every one of my guys that worked for me and owned a sport bike had a big wreck at some point. One guys life was probably saved because he had a minor parking lot crash that dinged his helmet pretty good and that got him serious about riding gear. So, when a car turned into him and drove him into oncoming traffic and he ended up in the back seat of a minivan via the windshield and the thankfully empty passenger he was able to walk away with bruises and stiffness. The helmet, good jacket with sweatshirts underneath for padding probably did a lot to save him. The bike was totaled and under the minivan. Another guy had a car turn into his lane and he exited the overpass and landed on the interstate below. Six months in the hospital. I didn't know him at the time but I distinctly remember being stuck in traffic because they closed the road to scrape him up. Both pretty smart riders, much smarter after their crashes of course.


Now my pet peeve. The military safety magazines run constant motorcycle safety content, lots of "So there I was.." first person accident survival stories and such. The editorial punchline is always to attend a MSF safety course, wear good gear, and ride within your limits.

Now once in a blue moon there is Seaman Timmy who shot himself in the hand with his privately owned weapon. Never fails that the editors question why SN Timmy needed a loaded gun at home. 
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Viking

  • ❤︎ Fuck around & find out ❤︎
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,209
  • Carnist Bloodmouth
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2008, 12:12:02 PM »
Quote
Nevertheless, officials say, many simply ride without a motorcycle license when they are off duty.
What's up with this? Motorcycle license is optional in some states if you have a license to operate a car? ???
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

TF_FH

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2008, 12:26:26 PM »
Down here at Holloman AFB, in order to ride you need to take a air force motorcycle safety course, wear a helmet and reflective vest.  If you get caught even off duty without a helmet and vest(mostly they care about the helmet), they will nail you bad (restricted driving priviliges) and if you are stupid enough to do it a second time, theres a 90% chance of an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment).  Out here they really just got tired of the airmen being stupid about it.

Phantom Warrior

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2008, 01:04:03 PM »
You can't fix stupid.  If someone is going to drive drunk or very unsafely no amount of military mandated safety classes will change that.  *shrug*

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,217
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 01:22:39 PM »
What's up with this? Motorcycle license is optional in some states if you have a license to operate a car? ???

Generally, no, although a few states don't require an additional motorcycle license or endorsement.  What does happen is that many motorcycle riders don't bother to get the required license or endorsement and are therefore riding illegally.  In Washington state, only about 50% of motorcycle riders have the required endorsement.  So last year, our state legislature passed a law whereby if you are pulled over for a traffic violation while riding a motorcycle, and do not have the endorsement, the police will immediately impound your motorcycle and will not release it until you get the endorsement.  As a result, the MSF classes in Washington now have a several-month waiting list and the Department of Licensing has a 3-4 month wait for a motorcycle testing appointment as people scramble to get the endorsement and avoid having their bike impounded.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,675
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 02:07:20 PM »
Every so often, the goobermint does something semi-sensible.
 
Around here, we've got a mix of "let's ride a wheelie down the interstate during rush hour" and "let's stop at every bar along a scenic winding route."
 
There's gotta be SOME way, besides going into the mortuary business, to make money offa the geniuses...
 
And I remember trying to convince some folks in a marketing class back in college that soldiers were an ideal target market. They just couldn't get their heads away from "He's got a $600/month income" to "He's got a $600/month -disposable- income."
 
Blog under construction

Viking

  • ❤︎ Fuck around & find out ❤︎
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,209
  • Carnist Bloodmouth
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 02:31:35 PM »
Generally, no, although a few states don't require an additional motorcycle license or endorsement.  What does happen is that many motorcycle riders don't bother to get the required license or endorsement and are therefore riding illegally.  In Washington state, only about 50% of motorcycle riders have the required endorsement.  So last year, our state legislature passed a law whereby if you are pulled over for a traffic violation while riding a motorcycle, and do not have the endorsement, the police will immediately impound your motorcycle and will not release it until you get the endorsement.  As a result, the MSF classes in Washington now have a several-month waiting list and the Department of Licensing has a 3-4 month wait for a motorcycle testing appointment as people scramble to get the endorsement and avoid having their bike impounded.
Ah, that simple. I believe that if they caught you riding without a motorcycle endorsment here, they would take your license to drive a car if you are very unlucky, and they'd fine you as well. No impounding though. For some reason it isn't legal here AFAIK. Shame, lots of junkies and dopers driving around in rustbuckets that would sit just fine in the impound yard...
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Thor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • US Navy (retired)
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 04:07:50 PM »
Down here at Holloman AFB, in order to ride you need to take a air force motorcycle safety course, wear a helmet and reflective vest.  If you get caught even off duty without a helmet and vest(mostly they care about the helmet), they will nail you bad (restricted driving priviliges) and if you are stupid enough to do it a second time, theres a 90% chance of an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment).  Out here they really just got tired of the airmen being stupid about it.

It's been that way for a LONG while on military bases. I recall that when I got my first bike, a $500 KZ-550 prize from a guy who laid it down on the highway and got scared of it, I had to go get my learner's permit, take the test, get my license, then, I had to take a class on base about motorcycle safety ( a three day class). The base class was well worthwhile. It was sometime around 1984 that the Navy, at least, started making folks wear helmets off base. I will tell you that I remember seeing many motorcyclists leave the base, pull over, and remove their helmets.

The other issue that bugs me is that many states require the use of seat belts in motor vehicles, but DON'T require the use of helmets while on a motorcycle. Talk about incongruities......
" a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand." - Lucius Annaeus

for Military, Vets, & Supporters, check out:
USMILNET

Conservative Discussion Forum


MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,217
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 05:01:20 PM »
Consistent with the theme of this thread, the local NBC affiliate aired this story this morning:

WSP cracking down on unsafe motorcycle riders

09:27 AM PDT on Thursday, October 30, 2008

By ELISA HAHN / KING 5 News

Video: State troopers cracking down on unsafe motorcycle riders
Larger screen E-mail this clip

SEATTLE – A recent rash of motorcycle accidents and fatalities has the Washington State Patrol cracking down and troopers are aggressively seeking out dangerous riders.

The state patrol will be extra vigilant and unforgiving when it comes to motorcyclists breaking the law, especially if they're speeding, driving aggressively, driving drunk or without a helmet.

"We're killing a lot of people on bikes and we want that to cease right now," said Trooper Keith Leary, WSP.

In 2007, the state patrol saw 66 fatal motorcycle accidents on the highways. This year just through October there have been 68.

Many of those deadly accidents are due to a lack of training.

"Forty percent of the fatality collisions that we investigate on the average we don't see a motorcycle endorsement and that tells us a couple things: They're either riding a bike that's too big or they don't have the education and the experience as a rider," said Leary.

Last summer with climbing gas prices, a number of drivers left their cars and took to the highways on a much more fuel-efficient motorcycle.

"Very often that brings untrained riders. Overconfident, not knowing what they're doing, they're uneducated," said Mike Leibold, Everett Powersports.

Leibold says some inexperienced customers come into his store and after finding out about their lack of training, he advises them to stay in their car.

"It's obvious someone that doesn't have any training, doesn't have any sense of safety," he said.

Now the state patrol will be using every tool in its arsenal to keep those bikers from hurting themselves and others.

"We're going to use the aircraft and the unmarked cars and all the troopers that are out here and we're going to stop and talk to those folks," said Leary.

With motorcycles the most common infractions are speeding, drunk and aggressive driving.

Troopers will be very strict about that motorcycle endorsement. Anyone who doesn't have one will have the motorcycle impounded.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

unisonic12

  • New Member
  • Posts: 13
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2008, 05:15:40 PM »
When I was in the Navy, you had to take the MSF course and get either a motorcycle license or endorsement on your existing license.  Couldn't get a base sticker or have/bring it on base if you didn't.  We were required to wear gloves, hard soled shoes, long sleeves/pants, helmet and a reflective safety vest.  The threat was that if you didn't do the course and/or had an accident without all the required gear, they wouldn't cover the medical costs, same as if they could prove you weren't wearing your seatbelt in an auto accident.  One good thing about the course was USAA gave a pretty good insurance discount.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2008, 05:17:55 PM »
"The other issue that bugs me is that many states require the use of seat belts in motor vehicles, but DON'T require the use of helmets while on a motorcycle. Talk about incongruities......"

in almost 40 years of riding i have lessd than 2 hoours sans helmet. that said i think seat belt and helmet laws blow.  heres another inconguity for laughs. in the early 0's i got a ticket for driving wifes toyota with my bell helmet still on. i had ridden bike to get her car was in a hurry and just hopped in car and drove.  the rationale was the helmet impaired my peripheral vision.  funny how when the no helmet folks use that argument the state claims no impairment
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 05:31:48 PM »
Question:  Do military personnel have motorcycle accidents at a higher rate than other people or males in the same age group outside the military? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 08:25:29 PM »
Probably not. 

However, it isn't good risk management if the troops you plan on deploying are wrapped around a telephone pole via their new crotch-rocket. 

The DoD doesn't just track motorcycle incidents when it comes to trend analysis, but it's pretty high on the scoreboard.

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Thor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • US Navy (retired)
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2008, 10:38:21 PM »
Gewehr, I can't say for DoD wide, but the Navy tracks ANY accident. On the job, on liberty, anything at all. All of it goes through the Naval Safety Center in Norfolk.
" a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand." - Lucius Annaeus

for Military, Vets, & Supporters, check out:
USMILNET

Conservative Discussion Forum


wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: Motorcycles in the military
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2008, 10:41:35 PM »
When I was in the Navy, you had to take the MSF course and get either a motorcycle license or endorsement on your existing license.  Couldn't get a base sticker or have/bring it on base if you didn't.  We were required to wear gloves, hard soled shoes, long sleeves/pants, helmet and a reflective safety vest.  The threat was that if you didn't do the course and/or had an accident without all the required gear, they wouldn't cover the medical costs, same as if they could prove you weren't wearing your seatbelt in an auto accident.  One good thing about the course was USAA gave a pretty good insurance discount.

The Army and Air Force have this policy today.  And I believe it is a DOD policy.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!