Author Topic: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon  (Read 62274 times)

RocketMan

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #200 on: August 14, 2009, 06:08:13 PM »
Sometimes I truly think that, especially when you hear about all those big new oil finds in the last couple years.


>.<

The economist within me winces everytime I read things like this.

Why?  Worldwide demand is way down, ~6.8% the last time I saw a number, except for perhaps in China, but there is evidence that a lot of that is stockpiling and not for consumption.
Our supplies in storage are at record highs, with the largest facility at Cushing, OK almost absolutely full.
There are many super tankers just plodding around the oceans as mobile storage tanks, waiting for prices to rise further.
Granted the value of the dollar drives some of the price variation as that is how oil is priced, and oil has been following equities lately, too, but of late there has been a disconnect between supply/demand and oil prices.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #201 on: August 14, 2009, 06:28:20 PM »
Why?  Worldwide demand is way down, ~6.8% the last time I saw a number, except for perhaps in China, but there is evidence that a lot of that is stockpiling.

If they're buying it for stockpiling, they're still buying it.  Demanding it, even.


Quote
There are many super tankers just plodding around the oceans as mobile storage tanks, waiting for prices to rise further.

I'm not sure what this means.  Either they expect prices to rise, so they're holding out; or they don't think current prices will cover their overhead.  Either way, it's their oil.  Can't they do with it whatever they want? 
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RocketMan

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #202 on: August 15, 2009, 12:29:58 AM »
If they're buying it for stockpiling, they're still buying it.  Demanding it, even.

This doesn't even take into account those speculators that do not take physical possession of the commodity they speculate in.  No actual product need be pumped out of the ground.
It depends on the form of speculation.

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I'm not sure what this means.  Either they expect prices to rise, so they're holding out; or they don't think current prices will cover their overhead.  Either way, it's their oil.  Can't they do with it whatever they want?

Yep, it's their's and they sure can do with it as they please.

I guess my whole point is that currently the oil futures market is not being much influenced by the normal supply/demand dynamic.  The speculation is being driven by other factors that are more difficult to measure.
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Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #203 on: August 15, 2009, 12:33:24 AM »
OK
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makattak

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #204 on: August 15, 2009, 09:52:28 AM »
I guess my whole point is that currently the oil futures market is not being much influenced by the normal supply/demand dynamic.  The speculation is being driven by other factors that are more difficult to measure.

The futures market is NEVER driven by the "normal" supply/demand dynamic. It doesn't matter what supply and demand are right now for the futures market, it matters what they expect the price (by virtue of the future supply/demand dynamic) to be in the future.

IF the futures market is bidding up the price, it is because they expect the price to rise in the future. If someone expects the price to fall, now is the time to sell. If no one is selling, no one thinks the price is going down.
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RocketMan

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Re: Unleaded in Indianapolis at new low of $1.31/gallon
« Reply #205 on: August 15, 2009, 11:42:26 AM »
The futures market is NEVER driven by the "normal" supply/demand dynamic. It doesn't matter what supply and demand are right now for the futures market, it matters what they expect the price (by virtue of the future supply/demand dynamic) to be in the future.

IF the futures market is bidding up the price, it is because they expect the price to rise in the future. If someone expects the price to fall, now is the time to sell. If no one is selling, no one thinks the price is going down.

All very true, makattak.  I should have been more expansive in what I was saying.
In my opinion, most speculators are extrapolating from poor current data, and making bad guesses as to what the future holds with regard to oil consumption.  Every little bit of data that even slightly appears to point to an improving economy is seized upon as a justification for forecasting increasing oil consumption over the coming months.  Many pundits are claiming the recession is already over, that it was a quick 'V' shaped recession, and hence oil demand in the developed and developing nations will increase soon.  And of course, the commodities players are betting on higher oil prices.  There seems to be more than a little pack or mob mentality at work right now amongst the speculators.
Other indicators point to it being more of the 'bathtub' type recession, and that we have another year or three to go before it finally ends.  Many economic prognosticators believe we are in for another serious downturn in the markets, starting in Sept/Oct this year.  There some serious concerns about commercial real estate loans that have yet to play out.  Some of China's methodology for totaling its economic activity is highly suspect to some, leading to concerns that their economic growth numbers are seriously inflated.
In any event, time will tell whether or not the oil futures market is heading for a bubble.  We should know in the next couple of months.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.