Obama hanged in effigy

[Iain]

Micro - nothing that you said there is disagreeable, nor is it what I was driving at.

The guy who created and hung this effigy may be the least racist person alive - but his creation was suffused with powerful racist imagery, intentional or not.

No-one is using this to 'smack down' McCain. But, someone who supports McCain, or dislikes Obama, gave Obama a few free political points by using imagery so obvious that the Obama campaign need say nothing at all about it.

All I'm saying is that denying the imagery is silly. Making an effigy of Palin dressed as a witch and then hitting it with a hammer is not the same things burning the same effigy at stake. Even creating an Obama effigy and dragging it behind a truck is not the same thing as hanging it - despite the relatively recent case of a black man being murdered in this way by white racists.

Imagery is a powerful thing for human beings, and lynching a black effigy is going to bring up issues.

[De Selby]

Well said, Iain.  Micro, you're right that this shouldn't be used as an example to play the race card on all Obama opposition.

However, for someone in America, particularly the American south, to hang a black skinned figurine in a noose...whether that person is racist or not, he or she without a doubt knows of the racist connotation involved.  To deny that is like those white supremacist types who claim that a swastika is just a "hindu good luck symbol" or whatever other nutty theory they use to try and brush off condemnation.

[MicroBalrog]

To deny that is like those white supremacist types who claim that a swastika is just a "hindu good luck symbol" or whatever other nutty theory they use to try and brush off condemnation.

You mean like the Finnish President?

[De Selby]

You mean like the Finnish President?

Sorry, should have qualified with a "those types here in America, where we have no other history with the symbol other than its association with Nazism"

Good point, there.

[Manedwolf]

OK.  Fine.  Every race of people has been hanged, enslaved, mistreated, and so forth.  Duh.

But this is the U.S., in the twenty-first century.  Some bits of history are more relevant, and more recent, to our situation. 

So we should cater to the ignorance of the lowest common denominator?

Sure, let's just go on THAT path. Ever see Idiocracy? The "history" presentation in the end, where the UN UN-Nazi'ed Europe?

Sorry, I think you've been infected with White Guilt. Ought to see a librarian about curing that with a good dose of history.

(BTW, maybe someone should remind these two dorks that THEIR sort are hanged in Iran on an almost daily basis, and only the candidates they're disparaging would do anything about it! Obama sure would not!)

Sorry, should have qualified with a "those types here in America, where we have no other history with the symbol other than its association with Nazism"

Only those that had an inferior public school education.

[MicroBalrog]

Sorry, should have qualified with a "those types here in America, where we have no other history with the symbol other than its association with Nazism"

[Perd Hapley]

OK.  Fine.  Every race of people has been hanged, enslaved, mistreated, and so forth.  Duh.

But this is the U.S., in the twenty-first century.  Some bits of history are more relevant, and more recent, to our situation. 

So we should cater to the ignorance of the lowest common denominator?  

I never suggested any such thing.  For someone with such a strong interest in graphic design, you're being awfully obtuse about the matter of imagery. 

[De Selby]

Only those that had an inferior public school education.

Odd-I had a six figure private education and I never learned that I shouldn't expect people to read "Nazi" were I to paint a swastika on my front porch.  Nor did I learn that such a reaction would be unreasonable.

Where is it that they're teaching about the non-offensive uses of the swastika, or that nooses around black skinned figurines have nothing to do with racism?

[Sindawe]

Odd-I had a six figure private education and I never learned that I shouldn't expect people to read "Nazi" were I to paint a swastika on my front porch.  Nor did I learn that such a reaction would be unreasonable.

Where is it that they're teaching about the non-offensive uses of the swastika, or that nooses around black skinned figurines have nothing to do with racism?

Demonstrates that actual value of a high priced education.  Pity that such often does not teach the student how to educate themselves on controversial matters.

[Don't care]

I may not hang the likeness of B(utt)HO(le) from my tree, but I may plant a "tombstone" in my front yard with his name on it for Halloween.

Anyone have anything better than the insciption: Barrack Obama "He died a political death"?

[De Selby]

Demonstrates that actual value of a high priced education.  Pity that such often does not teach the student how to educate themselves on controversial matters.

It's hard to imagine that you're seriously arguing the point that a swastika in America can't reasonably be assumed to coincide with Nazi ideology.  Posting about ancient India and Finland is all well and good, but this is America....and the noose with Obama was in Kentucky, not a buddhist temple in Cambodia, or some other exotic place where a rope around the neck has some magical significance.

I'm just imagining how you'd all react to a guy with a shaved head, cobwebs on his temples, and swastikas all over his arms walking into your places of business and politely explaining that he shaves his head because monks of many religions shave their heads, and that he has swastikas on his arms because those bald hindu monks believed it was good luck. 

And the combat boots and camo pants? That's because peace protesters wear that kind of gear-he was just getting ready to attend a rally for civil rights, where they hang dark skinned dolls by the neck on tall poles to show that they elevate different races above the hordes of white people with monks' haircuts and good luck tattoos.  Oh, and the burning cross? That just shows they're on fire for God!  No racism to see there!

I'm sure you'd all take this character at his word and seriously consider his hindu/buddhist/religious motivations before branding him a nazi, right?

[Don't care]

Odd-I had a six figure private education and I never learned that I shouldn't expect people to read "Nazi" were I to paint a swastika on my front porch.  Nor did I learn that such a reaction would be unreasonable.

Where is it that they're teaching about the non-offensive uses of the swastika, or that nooses around black skinned figurines have nothing to do with racism?

The swastika is a symbol that is approximately 3000 years old that had nothing to do with hatred. It is still commonly used and seen in the orient by a multitude of people. For a full description, see the following:

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

And figurines of any skin color that are placed in the inappropriate context, would be offensive to anyone.

So much for my public school education and your 6 figure education.

[Manedwolf]

It's hard to imagine that you're seriously arguing the point that a swastika in America can't reasonably be assumed to coincide with Nazi ideology.  Posting about ancient India and Finland is all well and good, but this is America....and the noose with Obama was in Kentucky, not a buddhist temple in Cambodia, or some other exotic place where a rope around the neck has some magical significance.

I'm just imagining how you'd all react to a guy with a shaved head, cobwebs on his temples, and swastikas all over his arms walking into your places of business and politely explaining that he shaves his head because monks of many religions shave their heads, and that he has swastikas on his arms because those bald hindu monks believed it was good luck. 

And the combat boots and camo pants? That's because peace protesters wear that kind of gear-he was just getting ready to attend a rally for civil rights, where they hang dark skinned dolls by the neck on tall poles to show that they elevate different races above the hordes of white people with monks' haircuts and good luck tattoos.  Oh, and the burning cross? That just shows they're on fire for God!  No racism to see there!

I'm sure you'd all take this character at his word and seriously consider his hindu/buddhist/religious motivations before branding him a nazi, right?

Why not? You'd excuse someone with a kaffiyeh, an Arafat t-shirt, and a black banner of jihad on their jacket as just a poor misunderstood everyday peaceful Muslim.

I'm sorry, you've long ago busted any credibility on whom to condemn.

[De Selby]

The swastika is a symbol that is approximately 3000 years old that had nothing to do with hatred. It is still commonly used and seen in the orient by a multitude of people. For a full description, see the following:

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

And figurines of any skin color that are placed in the inappropriate context, would be offensive to anyone.

So much for my public school education and your 6 figure education.

Okay, so try this experiment: Using a black magic marker, put a swastika somewhere prominently on your clothing or on a visible part of your body, and then walk all over town with it.  Try to hit every neighborhood in your city, and see if you can find a single one where people don't treat you like a Nazi.

Better yet: carry a little printout of your web search there.  See how much that means to people who see your "ancient, venerable, good luck symbol."

The point about mentioning education here is to highlight that it's common sense-you don't need to go to Harvard to understand that swastikas and nooses have an offensive racist connotation in America.

[De Selby]

Why not? You'd excuse someone with a kaffiyeh, an Arafat t-shirt, and a black banner of jihad on their jacket as just a poor misunderstood everyday peaceful Muslim.

I'm sorry, you've long ago busted any credibility on whom to condemn.

Nice attempt at changing the subject, but it only highlights how much more obviously without ground your position is here. 

Experiment for you also: try to design some commercial art with a swastika and a black body hanging from a noose, and show it off to your clients with a little primer about the venerable history of swastikas and how nooses don't have anything to do with racism.

There's no need to take my word for it when the real world is right there in front of your face.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

thats gonna leave a mark

[Sindawe]

...how nooses don't have anything to do with racism.

What a moment, HERE is a black figure, hanging from a tree by a noose.  The figure also happens to be pierced by a spear (his own even)...



Nevermind that the figure depicted did this to himself in the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom (which he did obtain), it MUST be racist tripe!!!

Nooses are an execution device, and I'm sure you can bring mind another execution device that does not have ill meaning to the millions of people who venerate it and/or wear one around their necks every day.  It got that way as a result of people choosing to accept one meaning over another.  The device itself has no power.

Better yet: carry a little printout of your web search there.  See how much that means to people who see your "ancient, venerable, good luck symbol."

Yes, by all means we MUST bow to the whims of the ignorant and let truth be damned!

[K Frame]

Enough.