O'Bama to Move Against State Concealed Carry Laws

[K Frame]

No one is asking you to join an "irrational panic."

I do, however, remember very distinctly the reactions among many people when Bill Clinton first became president.

Many, FAR too many, adopted your attitude of "it will never happen, you're just chicken little screaming about the sky falling, etc."

Their attitudes were that even talking about such a possibility was paranoid and delusional.

And then, within two years, we had both the Brady Bill AND the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.

The only thing people want is for people like yourself to get your head out of your ass and recognize that Obama is as, if not more, hostile to firearms than Clinton was.

If you still don't think it's possible for a new firearms act to be passed, take a look at the composition of this Congress and the composition of the 1994 Congress that passed those pieces of legislation. There are significant similarities in terms of numbers (in fact, the 2008 election will turn back the Congress clock almost PRECISELY in terms of numbers as to what it was prior to the 1994 election), and in the personalities, political beliefs, and agendas of the majority leaders in both houses of Congress.

Anyone who believes that Democrats "saw the light" regarding gun control after the 2000 election is a fool.

Anyone who sits on his ass and says "Oh, it's OK, nothing will ever happen" is worse than a fool.

[slingshot]

There is not the least doubt in my mind that Obama as president will be the worst thing Second Amendment supporters have ever experienced from past presidents.  He has the keys and the belief.  We want Change!  Let's hear it!

I fear being legislated into a criminal when I have never done anything more illegal than exceed the speeding limit.  I'm sure you heard about the questionaire that the future Obama administration has released for job seekers.  You think being a member of the NRA, a member any gun forum, having a CCW permit, etc will win any points with them.  They even want you to list all your screen names that you use on the internet.  Change is happening!

[Matthew Carberry]

Pull my head out of my ass?

Nice Irwin. 

If you seriously think, after all my time on here and THR, that I am under any illusions about the state of gun rights in this country or what the stakes are from this administration than you are the one with the cranio-rectal inversion going on.  I expected better.

What I am trying to make clear is that,

yes, we know it will almost certainly be bad; but

A) we don't know the exact form the attack will take place; and

B) we already know the appropriate counters in any event, as we've already used them before; and

C) Obama isn't in office until January.


Coming into APS, a place full of gun owners and fairly activist ones at that, and posting "OMG OMG OMG, Obama is a threat to gun rights!" is as ridiculously redundant and idiotic as running into a physics lab and yelling "OMG OMG OMG, objects in motion will tend to remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force!".

Why f-ing bother working yourself into a lather at this point?  It is reality, we are all already well aware of it, we will deal with it appropriately at the appropriate time.

If you can name just one useful thing we can do, other than the few I already posted or similar, until Obama makes his move, name it.

If not, why are we going into preemptive "Obama Derangement Syndrome".

All I ask is that people use intelligence, not witless, puerile emotion.

[seeker_two]

Um. MB?

You REALLY need to brush up on your states before coming to the US. What do you think that top state in red is right in the middle?

Either I've just become color-blind....or that map isn't showing what you think it's showing....

[Strings]

>Then you have no stake in this game. I do. <

I REALLY hope you're not saying that because we here in Cheeseland aren't allowed to carry. Seriously.

 As far as open carry here: depends on where you are. In many places, openly carrying a firearm will result in a charge of Disturbing the Peace (or similar). And you can't leave it in the holster in your car (improper transport of a weapon)

[Monkeyleg]

What we can do is remind our legislators--especially the Democrats--what Bill Clinton said in his autobiography about him making one of the biggest mistakes by pushing the AW ban. We might also send those legislators emails with links to news stories about gun sales being up 15% after the election.

If they don't understand what those two simple points mean, then they're in trouble in 2010.

Bill Clinton could probably help us by reminding Obama about the 1994 loss of congress to the Republicans because of gun control. However, my guess is that he'd like to see Obama make some big mistakes so that Hillary gets another shot.

As for Cheeseheads not having a stake in concealed carry, many of us have our non-resident permits from other states, so we have a dog in this fight, too.

[Ryan in Maine]

Until Obama is in office, and until he and the anti-gunners move against guns, there is nothing to object to except smoke and supposition.

That's moronic behavior.

Once he makes his particular defined actual move, THEN it is appropriate to move to counter.

I hope that's not how you play chess/shogi.

[Matthew Carberry]

I hope that's not how you play chess/shogi.

What part of,

What I am trying to make clear is that,

yes, we know it will almost certainly be bad; but

A) we don't know the exact form the attack will take place; and

B) we already know the appropriate counters in any event, as we've already used them before; and

C) Obama isn't in office until January.

makes you think I don't know how to plan ahead?

Posting in a gun forum about suppositions and old news is not being a Chessmaster or taking the offense.

 :rolleyes:

Again, if you are waiting until now to figure out what to do when he makes his move, you are already behind the curve.

Preaching fearfully to the choir who are already prepared (that'd be me at least) is the idiocy I'm against.

Furthermore, this:

What we can do is remind our legislators--especially the Democrats--what Bill Clinton said in his autobiography about him making one of the biggest mistakes by pushing the AW ban. We might also send those legislators emails with links to news stories about gun sales being up 15% after the election.

is effective now and, lo and behold, is what those of us not running around like Chicken Little are doing and recommending to others.

That would be the active kind of move of someone with a bent toward strategic thinking.

What the hell happened to abstract reasoning and long-term thinking? 

[MicroBalrog]

Either I've just become color-blind....or that map isn't showing what you think it's showing....

He's referring to a different map which I removed when he pointed out my mistake.

[Ryan in Maine]

What part of,

makes you think I don't know how to plan ahead?

Posting in a gun forum about suppositions and old news is not being a Chessmaster or taking the offense.

 :rolleyes:

Again, if you are waiting until now to figure out what to do when he makes his move, you are already behind the curve.

Preaching fearfully to the choir who are already prepared (that'd be me at least) is the idiocy I'm against.

Furthermore, this:

is effective now and, lo and behold, is what those of us not running around like Chicken Little are doing and recommending to others.

That would be the active kind of move of someone with a bent toward strategic thinking.

What the hell happened to abstract reasoning and long-term thinking? 

Makes sense. I think I misunderstood. I got the impression that you were waiting to take such actions until the day after Obama Inc made things "official" to the public.

I helped out my state by voting to keep Susan Collins in office. It was a success. Then I moved inward to my back yard.

As far as Obama goes, I share media stories large and small with the officials who represent my state and add my thoughts to them. I usually get a fairly honest reply as a bonus.

I misunderstood your comments and mistakenly thought you were kicking your feet up until he starts really pushing his agenda.

My bad.

[Manedwolf]

>Then you have no stake in this game. I do. <

I REALLY hope you're not saying that because we here in Cheeseland aren't allowed to carry. Seriously.

 As far as open carry here: depends on where you are. In many places, openly carrying a firearm will result in a charge of Disturbing the Peace (or similar). And you can't leave it in the holster in your car (improper transport of a weapon)

I was talking to someone from there who didn't think Obama would ever work towards pushing a national ban on concealed carry, then sign it.

Since someone from Wisconsin already can't carry concealed, no, they don't have a stake in that game. They already can't carry concealed.

I don't live in Wisconsin, and would not live in any state where I could not carry concealed. I carry daily. It's my right of self defense against an armed attacker. So I have a lot more at stake than someone who already chooses to live in a place where they already cannot do that. You can't lose what you've never had, and someone from such a place who tells me to relax, that it won't be taken away...it just doesn't make any sense. They don't have anything that could be taken away, themselves, to be able to argue about it.

Understand?

[Strings]

As Monkeyleg already pointed out: many of us have out of state permits for when we travel. That gives us one reason to "have a stake in this".

 We ARE trying to fix the laws in this state to be more intelligent. Kinda hard to do if Obama manages to ban CCW. Second reason we have a stake.

 Not even going after the "you choose to live there" arguement. Some of us don't have a whole lotta choice in where we live (for a variety of circumstances)...

[rickomatic]

If you can name just one useful thing we can do, other than the few I already posted or similar, until Obama makes his move, name it.

Unfortunately the most useful thing we could do failed a couple weeks ago......vote against two of the most anti gun politicians in my 57 year lifespan. I remember the Clinton ban. I remember all the regressions to my gun rights over the past 40 odd years. Those who didn't take the RKBA issue of the past election as a top priority and rather voted to help sow the winds of change with their vote are about to reap us a whilrwind.

Many posters are right though. What's done is done. Now is the time to regroup and begin the fight anew. It won't be easy. It IS coming. Make no mistake about it. No chicken little here. Just being awake and smelling the coffee. Start acting now. Many great suggestions have already been made. Let's roll.

[roo_ster]

In one respect, the running around with the head cut off act is a waste of energy.

But, I can see a benefit to getting all gun owners slapped into consciousness about the peril our rights are in.  You don't get the apathetic to get off their duff with nuanced talk.

For example, the environmental group leaders have been shoveling both hype and bull___t by the bargeload about all sorts of topics to get & keep their constituency riled up.  

I don't say we should lie and partake in such grand disinformation campaigns as have the environmental group leaders, but keeping the pot simmering / informing gun owners about BHO's proclivities right now will pay dividends later when those folks are already up to speed and time does not have to be wasted making the case to our own.

[Matthew Carberry]

Definitely, but the gun owners on this board don't need it.

They need to get away from the keyboard and rile up the ones who aren't part of the online community.  The ones who own but seldom shoot, or carry where legal, the ones who aren't going to act until action becomes necessary and maybe not even then.

I was a little harsh in my tone and I apologize for that.

I just dislike preaching to the chorus on principle.

Really grinds my gears.

I even still love Irwin. 

[Gewehr98]

As a lifetime Wisconsin resident, I'd like to see somebody openly carry off of their personal property.

It would be interesting, to say the least.  They could probably do it in Baraboo or Rhinelander, but definitely not Madison or Milwaukee.

I'm ok with Manedwolf not living here.  I'd prefer he didn't, after blurbs like that. Life isn't all about guns, but we Cheddarheads don't live in a defenseless vacuum, either.  Living in Condition Red or even Orange 24/7 will burn one out like a candle lit at both ends, regardless.

Monkeyleg and my other fellow Wisconsin residents on APS have posted on several occasions about the Wisconsin CCW efforts.  We've been up against a brick wall of one sort or another for a long time, even though we've come closer in recent attempts.  That doesn't mean we've decided to roll over and play dead - not by a long shot.

I had a CCW permit in Kalifornia and Florida.  I didn't pack everyday, it was purely my prerogative, and I understood the risks and ramifications of my choices.  If I were to get mutilated or killed because I chose not to carry on a given day, I'd discuss it with St. Peter afterwards. 

While we don't have CCW permits here in Wisconsin (yet), I'd hardly call us irrelevant.  And I still have a bedside AK-47, regardless of what Obama wants us to have or not have.  The man is bad news for gun owners, regardless of the sheep's clothing, and it's going to be a rough 4 years at a minimum.

[stevelyn]

People are way too worked up about things that aren't even proposed yet.

We already know it's part of their agenda. And yes it's already been proposed amongst themselves. They just haven't had a chance to pitch it to us yet.

[Monkeyleg]

As a lifetime Wisconsin resident, I'd like to see somebody openly carry off of their personal property.

There have been two instances I'm aware of in the last several months.

The first involved a guy in Milwaukee who carried openly for a couple of weeks before a Walmart manager asked him to leave. When he was back in his truck, he unloaded the gun and put it in a case. About that time a squad rolled up and he was arrested for disorderly conduct.

The DA's office didn't quite know what to do with the case. I called the NRA, and they got together with the attorney from the Vegas case. Last I heard the DA's office was still trying to figure out what to do. (Note to self: find out what happened).

In another case a guy in West Allis was planting trees in his yard while carrying. He never left his yard, which is fenced in. Nevertheless, he was arrested for disturbing the peace. What was strange about this one was that he had been recording everything all day, including the conversations with the officers at his home and at the station. Something just didn't feel right. I don't know if the NRA went anywhere with that one or not.

[GigaBuist]

I just don't see how Obama would get a national CCW ban.  Under what powers?

Of course, I'm also totally confused as to how the law that passed under Bush's watch giving all retired police legal CCW in all 50 states is legal.

The only other areas of law where I'm aware of the Feds dictating how state's should behave are in traffic laws.  Mandatory seat belts, DUI limits, minimum age to purchase alcohol, etc.  They get away with that by withholding Federal gas tax money, but they're still not universal.  New Hampshire doesn't have a seat belt law on the books.  I'm sure there are other anomalies out there.

If the SCOTUS shot the government's argument in Lopez just how in the heck is a national CCW ban going to work?

[Manedwolf]

Of course, I'm also totally confused as to how the law that passed under Bush's watch giving all retired police legal CCW in all 50 states is legal.

That one is what cemented my opinion of most cops being a tribe looking out for their own interests.

They promised that if people supported that, they'd help push for everyone else to get the same. People supported them.

Then, when they got it, it suddenly became "Oh, ordinary citizens don't have a need for this." 

I would like to take it away. If we don't have it, no reason they should.

[Strings]

Heh... I actually open carried my .357 for about a week. Every night, Spoon & I would go out for a walk, and it was on my hip the entire time. Even talked to a few cops during those strolls: they never noticed (or if they did, decided not to comment)...

 Of course, I'm in neither Madison or Milwaukee.

[K Frame]

"I expected better."

Funny, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking earlier.

I sort of expected people to have a longer memory than 7 years. I was wrong.

I sort of expected people to recognize the massive change that will occur in Congress. I guess I was wrong.

I sort of expected people to look at a politician's entire history on a subject, not just his most recent "God I had better say this to try and dupe a segment of the population that turned on the party last time" platitudes. I most definitely was wrong.

[GigaBuist]

I would like to take it (national CCW for police) away.

If Obama's administration gets, or even tries for, a national CCW ban we just might have to.  I don't see how there's any federal authority to influence the state laws on the matter.  Might as well tear down the quasi pro-gun law before Obama even gets a chance.

Of course such a move wouldn't have traction with any pro-gun organization, save for maybe the GOA or JPFO.  Hell, half the people here probably want to burn me at the stake for suggesting it.

Thing is, that law (CCW for police) is going to stand and never be challenged in the courts.  The Brady Bunch doesn't have the money or numbers for that kind of activism, nor does it really run counter to their agenda.  It doesn't run counter to the NRA's agenda either.

What it does do, though, is gives the anti-gun folk a hand-hold in point out the "gun lobby's" hypocrisy.  If Obama get his old national CCW ban dream codified in law we'll have a hard time arguing that the Federal government has no authority in the matter.

Just food for though.

The fact of the matter is we're looking at, what, 38 states with shall issue and 48 states with CCW permits?  With only two states supporting the anti-CCW stance it's hard to believe that we couldn't eventually get a Constitutional amendment negating any anti-CCW laws that the Obama administration passed.  Sure, it's a long road, but it's there.

[RevDisk]

The fact of the matter is we're looking at, what, 38 states with shall issue and 48 states with CCW permits?  With only two states supporting the anti-CCW stance it's hard to believe that we couldn't eventually get a Constitutional amendment negating any anti-CCW laws that the Obama administration passed.  Sure, it's a long road, but it's there.

I have to agree.  There's only a handful of states left that are anti-CCW, the usual suspects.  EBR's are an easier target, I'd think Obama would hit that first.  If EBR's were out of the way and the courts ignored Heller in refusing to overturn such a ban, sure, he'd move onto harder targets.  Yes, it's worrisome that he's anti-CCW, but he's anti ANY 2A despite the Fudd friendly rhetoric.

[Matthew Carberry]

"I expected better."

Funny, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking earlier.

I sort of expected people to have a longer memory than 7 years. I was wrong.

I sort of expected people to recognize the massive change that will occur in Congress. I guess I was wrong.

I sort of expected people to look at a politician's entire history on a subject, not just his most recent "God I had better say this to try and dupe a segment of the population that turned on the party last time" platitudes. I most definitely was wrong.

Again, you realize who you're talking to right?

I'm 37 years old, I've voted pro-gun in every election since I turned 18, lived through the shall-carry revolution and both terms of the Clinton administration.  I could dictate a book on the freaking history of firearms laws in this country from memory.

Not feeling a need to freak out about it, in a venue dedicated to the concept, in seemingly daily postings relating the same tired news (however true) from the beginning of the g-ddamn campaign, hardly demonstrates ignorance of the subject nor avoidance thereof, deliberate or otherwise.

Jesus Mike, do we really need to post Obama's voting record weekly?  Do you really think everyone on APS isn't more than aware of the situation and stakes? 

Why not make it a sticky then?

-edited to remove abbreviated curses, the blasphemy shall remain