Universal Health Care

[ronnyreagan]

Allow me to illustrate for you:

Noting is STOPPING him from doing that. Nothing is BENEFITTING him when he does that either.

Let's say I come to you and tell you you can have steak or McDonald's. It will cost you the same whichever you choose.

What are you going to choose?

Steak is an easy choice...
but my question is what is causing that, and how specifically do we address that? What incentive do you have for giving me two choices with different costs to you for the same price?

I'm guessing it's a health insurance thing (probably complicated), but why aren't health insurance companies providing choices with some costing more and some less according to what it will cost them? I'm trying to get an understanding of what is causing our system to be so inefficient, and what the proposed fix would change, as specifically as possible.

[Nitrogen]

That's helped drive many out of the field.  I know of some who will not practice in the areas where socialized medicine is taking hold. 

This right here is one of the biggest problems with any government mandated healthcare scheme.  If we do go down this road, we still need to make sure it's worth doctors' effort to practice.  I forsee some type of government school loan forgiveness for practicing for a certain number of years, or other tax break to practicioners.

This only makes the price of any program go up, too.

The interesting part of this, as I can see a program like this being pushed as an economic bailout.  I wonder how many companies' bottom lines would do better if they don't have to provide healthcare, or their costs decrease?

Of course, its only robbing peter to pay paul.

I'm all for the idea of some kind of universal health care, but I'll be damned if I know how to pay for it without causing many other problems, like the one above; which is why I think it won't happen anytime soon.

[Boomhauer]

I forsee some type of government school loan forgiveness for practicing for a certain number of years

That's what they do for public school teachers in this state.

[Ron]

Kennedy Announces Plan to Submit Bill For Universal Care

By Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 18, 2008; A03

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), making his second appearance on Capitol Hill since he began treatment for a malignant brain tumor in June, told reporters yesterday that he would advance a bill early next year calling for universal health care.

Some Democrats, including members of President-elect Barack Obama's circle, have begun to view expanded coverage as a longer-term goal.

The brief appearance by Kennedy, who made a surprise return in July to vote on a Medicare bill, represented an opportunity for him to show colleagues that he remains energetic and engaged, and that he intends to reclaim his committee post in January and take charge of the Obama health-care agenda. Some Democrats had speculated that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) would attempt to assume the chairmanship of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) rolled out his own health-care bill days after Obama was elected, and Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) also expects to be a leading participant in the effort to establish universal health care.

Kennedy has a head start on them all. Despite his illness, he directed his staff months ago to begin work on legislation that would vastly expand health coverage, a career-long goal of his.

But as the economy has worsened, attention has shifted to measures aimed at creating jobs and stabilizing the housing market. Obama is particularly eager to advance his alternative energy agenda.

Kennedy acknowledged the competition. "There's some major issues, obviously, the economy and also environmental issues," Kennedy said on his way to a staff meeting, where he was greeted with cheers.

"But the president-elect has indicated that this is going to be a priority, and I certainly hope it will."

[buzz_knox]

Why don't they go ahead and announce how much of a tax increase this will take?

Between Obama's other social plans and this, we should see the tax rates for those who pay taxes up to around, say, 110-120%.  But what do we expect from people who once seriously advocating seizing everything over a certain amount (I believe it was $1 million at the time) that people made, and expected to rake in billions as a result.

[AZRedhawk44]

Great, we get to fight against the Edward Kennedy Memorial Bill, aka "Swimmer's Legacy."

I won't see a doctor that accepts only Medicare or some Universal Coverage.  I want some control whether the guy does good work, and if he doesn't... I can tell my insurance carrier about it.  The guy will get dropped if he gets enough complaints, and have fewer contracts under which he can do business.

I imagine there might even be a bit of a black market for good doctors, even if it's Universal Coverage doctors who do work on their own time for cash.

[Don't care]

If you oppose Universal Health Care what other altenatives are there? I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

The state of healthcare is in bad shape if one doesn't have decent health insurance, as it puts treatment out of one's financial reach.

There are a number of alternatives to Universal Health Care, however our lawmakers put their noses in it, and things get screwed all to hell.

Those alternatives would include:

1. Euro-rize part of the market, offering a low cost, private health care plan to everyone, to upgrade to a better plan at their own expense. Take the better parts of Medicare part D, and apply them to this type of program, adjusting as needed.
2. Make capitations illegal and require licensed providers to allocate a formulated percentage of their practice/business/time to the poor.
3. Enable IDSs to compete effectively with HMOs and traditional indemnity insurance. Competition in industry is good.
4. Actively encourage disease prevention through tax breaks, as opposed to curative measures in health care. Right now, only a percentage of one's adjusted gross income can be written off to medical measures.
5. Emphasize American citizenship as an admission criteria for medical school admission, as well as remove the caps of admissions.

The industry as a whole better shape up, or it will be governmental bureaucrats calling the shots as who will receive what treatment and when.

[AZRedhawk44]

The state of healthcare is in bad shape if one doesn't have decent health insurance, as it puts treatment out of one's financial reach.
There are a number of alternatives to Universal Health Care, however our lawmakers put their noses in it, and things get screwed all to hell.

Those alternatives would include:

1. Euro-rize part of the market, offering a low cost, private health care plan to everyone, to upgrade to a better plan at their own expense. Take the better parts of Medicare part D, and apply them to this type of program, adjusting as needed.
2. Make capitations illegal and require licensed providers to allocate a formulated percentage of their practice/business/time to the poor.
3. Enable IDSs to compete effectively with HMOs and traditional indemnity insurance. Competition in industry is good.
4. Actively encourage disease prevention through tax breaks, as opposed to curative measures in health care. Right now, only a percentage of one's adjusted gross income can be written off to medical measures.
5. Emphasize American citizenship as an admission criteria for medical school admission, as well as remove the caps of admissions.

The industry as a whole better shape up, or it will be governmental bureaucrats calling the shots as who will receive what treatment and when.

Highlighted the communist parts in red for you.   

Let's say you're an auto mechanic.  You have someone roll up their beat-up car after getting in an accident with no insurance.  You have 10 cars in the shop with insurance, but this schmuck needs his car to drive 50 miles to his job every day.  He gets the state to pass a law that you have to dedicate 10% of your time to serving the needs of the poor with no insurance.

Hooray for you and your auto shop, right? :rolleyes:

[Don't care]

Highlighted the communist parts in red for you.   

Let's say you're an auto mechanic.  You have someone roll up their beat-up car after getting in an accident with no insurance.  You have 10 cars in the shop with insurance, but this schmuck needs his car to drive 50 miles to his job every day.  He gets the state to pass a law that you have to dedicate 10% of your time to serving the needs of the poor with no insurance.

Hooray for you and your auto shop, right? :rolleyes:

1. If one doesn't have decent health insurance, it certainly does put treatment out of financial reach. How is that a communist statement?
2. There are a number of professions that require the individual to provide for the indigent. Why should physicians be any different?
3. Encouraging disease prevention through tax breaks is communist? Right now, if you spend money to be energy conscious, you get a tax break.

As for the mechanic story, I don't see the relationship. The OP is about health care, as well as the ability to effectively deliver same. However, I also stated that a formulated percentage should be the standard, not just an overly simple percentage that attempts to diminish my argument.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you fellers are forgetting we already pay for health care for the poor. in the worst way possible   in the er when its gotten to the point where it really costs a ton. do you think the plans for the 15 percent wuillwill cost more than the rediculous price we pay when folks use the er for a cold? or a checkup? i used to haul drunks to rehab  but first we stop at the er where they get cleared medically.  it could be done easily in a doctors office but the current system requires killing gnats with a shotgun. they get the full er monte

[Iain]

1. If one doesn't have decent health insurance, it certainly does put treatment out of financial reach. How is that a communist statement?

Because it's against freedom. Just suffer quietly.

We did this the other day. I'm not sure if I'm boring, or if my reality just doesn't match up to the fantasies, but no-one seemed to want to address my concerns.

[Don't care]

Because it's against freedom. Just suffer quietly.

If health care is unaffordable to those without insurance, it's against freedom?

Huh?

If you were debating the affordability of a 50" HDTV Sony, I would agree with you.

[Nitrogen]

NEWS FLASH: Not everything the Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and Karl Marx came up with was horrible and soul crushing.  Massive abuses of unchecked power usually lead to horrible things, no matter how good someone's intention is.

NEWS FLASH: Not everything Adam Smith came up with is beautiful and wonderful, either.  Sometimes the invisible hand needs a little nudge, i.e. legislation to protect the environment.  (yet anotehr example of unchecked power started with a good intention, btw)

cassandra and sara's daddy hits on a good point.  Another point might be, how much more industry might we bring back to this country if health care costs are contained?  Who knows, it might even be a good investment!

[Manedwolf]

Tom Daschle was just selected for Sec Health & Human Services.

He's for universal healthcare, of course.

Gee, for "change", he's sure picking lots of recycled Washington liberals...

[AZRedhawk44]

1. If one doesn't have decent health insurance, it certainly does put treatment out of financial reach. How is that a communist statement?
2. There are a number of professions that require the individual to provide for the indigent. Why should physicians be any different?
3. Encouraging disease prevention through tax breaks is communist? Right now, if you spend money to be energy conscious, you get a tax break.

As for the mechanic story, I don't see the relationship. The OP is about health care, as well as the ability to effectively deliver same. However, I also stated that a formulated percentage should be the standard, not just an overly simple percentage that attempts to diminish my argument.

3.  Tax breaks.  That is other tax payers subsidizing your load that you should be carrying.  Good health is yours for your own benefit.  Either appreciate it and work for it for your own sake, or get fat and sit on the couch and die of diabetes or heart failure quietly.

2.  "Providing for the indigent."  This is slavery.  You are mandating that doctors must treat certain people, even against their will.  Not by company policy, where they can go work elsewhere or open their own practice... they MUST treat someone.  I could be a doctor in Beverly Hills, treating all the stars because I'm damn good at my job, raking in huge cash premiums because I keep those starletts happy and healthy and the studios love it.  But, a presidential directive or congressional mandate comes down and WHAM!  Now I have to spend my time where I used to make $500 an hour, at a homeless shelter or some other welfare gig, against my will.  What civil violation did I perpetrate to deserve this punishing "community service?"  I'm sure there will be some pigs that are more equal than other pigs though.

1.  Health Insurance.  Hey, you chose poorly.  You chose poorly in school when you flunked out.  You chose poorly in school when you didn't go to college.  You chose poorly when you used up all the charity and good will your family was willing to give you in your twenties to get back on track.  You chose poorly all the way until you got sick.  Some people die.  Some people are sick.  I'll help take care of the ones I care about (I've already got myself one that I'm saddled with, and I'm not here asking YOU to pay for this one)... but I won't take care of the other ones.

[RoadKingLarry]

2. Make capitations illegal and require licensed providers to allocate a formulated percentage of their practice/business/time to the poor

If the government can force licensed healthcare providers to work a percentage of their time for free what other occupations/services can the government require (force) you to give away "free" time in? The poor might need a newe roof so do we require roofers to work for free to help the poor? How about mechanics?, Network engineers? Photographers? Poor people need these things as well.
How much of a percentage has to be given away? 5%? 10%? 50%?

How much of your time does the government own?

[Manedwolf]

If health care is unaffordable to those without insurance, it's against freedom?

Huh?

If you were debating the affordability of a 50" HDTV Sony, I would agree with you.

Why is is any different? Why do you have a RIGHT to the products produced by companies that used their own R&D money to develop them?

Why is an $8000 stent any different than a $8000 TV?

Answer? It isn't. And you don't have a "right" to either one! At all!

You want it, you PAY FOR IT. Because someone else went and used their own money to develop and sell it on the free market. Healthcare is not magically different from other stuff on the market! It's all products, just products that go in you!

You can't pay for it? You patch yourself up. Nobody is obligated to give you their medical products for free, just because they're "medical" products as opposed to entertainment or transportation or other products!

And if the government starts forcing that? Guess what happens to medical innovation in this country? It comes to a screeching halt. Who the hell would want to produce medical products or work as a doctor if they're obligated to give their products and/or time to people, instead of profiting from them? We'd be back to a standard of care like, oh, right.

Cuba.

[Don't care]

3.  Tax breaks.  That is other tax payers subsidizing your load that you should be carrying.  Good health is yours for your own benefit.  Either appreciate it and work for it for your own sake, or get fat and sit on the couch and die of diabetes or heart failure quietly.

2.  "Providing for the indigent."  This is slavery.  You are mandating that doctors must treat certain people, even against their will.  Not by company policy, where they can go work elsewhere or open their own practice... they MUST treat someone.  I could be a doctor in Beverly Hills, treating all the stars because I'm damn good at my job, raking in huge cash premiums because I keep those starletts happy and healthy and the studios love it.  But, a presidential directive or congressional mandate comes down and WHAM!  Now I have to spend my time where I used to make $500 an hour, at a homeless shelter or some other welfare gig, against my will.  What civil violation did I perpetrate to deserve this punishing "community service?"  I'm sure there will be some pigs that are more equal than other pigs though.

1.  Health Insurance.  Hey, you chose poorly.  You chose poorly in school when you flunked out.  You chose poorly in school when you didn't go to college.  You chose poorly when you used up all the charity and good will your family was willing to give you in your twenties to get back on track.  You chose poorly all the way until you got sick.  Some people die.  Some people are sick.  I'll help take care of the ones I care about (I've already got myself one that I'm saddled with, and I'm not here asking YOU to pay for this one)... but I won't take care of the other ones.

3. Tax breaks for preventative measures, is a lot cheaper than paying for curing a disease. Public policy already mandates governmental insurance to take care of the sick without means.

2. Let there no longer be any volunteer firemen either. When your house burns, as well as your loved ones needing medical attention, it's your problem. The short end is that more public service is needed in this country, to include physicians.

Licensed professionals are required a number of things to renew their licenses. Money, continuing education, et al. So a doc does a few hours of CE refresher training in public medicine. Big deal.

1. Being hit by a car isn't a choice, good or bad. How many people who work and lose their job through a disabling illness or injury, can continue to afford health insurance? Go back and read the public policy statement of taking care of people without means.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Steak is an easy choice...
but my question is what is causing that, and how specifically do we address that? What incentive do you have for giving me two choices with different costs to you for the same price?

I'm guessing it's a health insurance thing (probably complicated), but why aren't health insurance companies providing choices with some costing more and some less according to what it will cost them? I'm trying to get an understanding of what is causing our system to be so inefficient, and what the proposed fix would change, as specifically as possible.

The insurers often try to steer the patients towards less costly alternatives.  They do it through things like lists of approved procedures, having pharmacists switch patients to generic drugs, capping the amount they'll reimburse for a given operation, deciding which doctors they'll cover, and various financial arrangements with doctors and hospitals. 

Usually their methods are vilified by patients.  "How dare that eeevil insurance company stand between me and my doctor?  They should stay out of my health care decisions."  They have to do this sort of thing though, or else they face the prospects of paying ever rising medical bills. 

Health care is one of the few industries where the customer always automatically demands the best possible product without regard to its cost.  When we shop for cars, we don't automatically head straight to the Rolls Royce dealer and buy their most expensive model.  When we need a hotel room for the night, we don't automatically head straight for the Ritz every time.  But when we step into the hospital, we always, always expect no compromises.  We expect the best possible cost-no-object medical care.  We aren't even told the costs we're incurring, we're just presented the Rolls and Ritz level treatments and never told about the lesser alternatives.  

[Manedwolf]

2. Let there no longer be any volunteer firemen either. When your house burn or your loved ones need medical attention, it's your problem. The short end is that more public service is needed in this country, to include physicians.

Oh, I'm SURE so many talented people will continue to choose that field if that happens. Why, they'd not only have to pay off their hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans for med school, not only have to pay their hundreds of thousands per year in malpractice insurance, but they'd also be slaves of the state, too! Wise career choice!

In case you hadn't noticed, good doctors are FLEEING the UK for that very reason.

[Don't care]

If the government can force licensed healthcare providers to work a percentage of their time for free what other occupations/services can the government require (force) you to give away "free" time in? The poor might need a newe roof so do we require roofers to work for free to help the poor? How about mechanics?, Network engineers? Photographers? Poor people need these things as well.
How much of a percentage has to be given away? 5%? 10%? 50%?

How much of your time does the government own?

No, the government owns the license to practice medicine, et al.

You choose if you wish to renew it by doing the CE that is required. I'm not saying that they do it free of charge, just take the insurance of the health plan to remove capitations from a method of payment.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

No, the government owns the license to practice medicine, et al.

You choose if you wish to renew it by doing the CE that is required.

Yeah, that's a recipe for success in a free country.  Do what the government demands, or else!

[Manedwolf]

No, the government owns the license to practice medicine, et al.

You choose if you wish to renew it by doing the CE that is required.

Wow, you're a scary statist. Do you even realize what you just said?

[Don't care]

Wow, you're a scary statist. Do you even realize what you just said?

Yeah, I do.

What other method do you have to remove capitation?

[AZRedhawk44]

No, the government owns the license to practice medicine, et al.

You choose if you wish to renew it by doing the CE that is required. I'm not saying that they do it free of charge, just take the insurance of the health plan to remove capitations from a method of payment.

Yep.  Black market medicine coming soon.  Hooray.