Author Topic: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody  (Read 27104 times)

grampster

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Re: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2008, 05:00:01 PM »
I'd humbly disagree with brother werewolf.  Children are inherently not good.  They are born selfish.  They cry and act up as infants because they are selfish.  The reason they are selfish is because they need to be.  They are dependent on others.  They don't smile and burble and coo for food, a diaper change or attention.  They cry and squall and demand.  Infants are cuddled and hugged and rocked and generally bonded with in order to overcome the inherent selfishness by love and kindness.   

Later when they start to move around a bit, say 2 or 3 they start to get worse.  They are still selfish, but now they are curious as well.  Curiosity and selfishness breeds problems.  Fortunately, they do respond to love, kindness and direction.

Children have to be taught to be good.  There are too many examples of children who did not have the benefit of good teaching.

If one does not take a child in hand, lovingly teach them the difference between right and wrong, turn their selfishness into selflessness you wind up with children who remain inner directed.

I think brother werewolf confuses the result of his very good parenting skills, his love and attention with some natural good in children.  His experience, imho, is because he did what needed to be done.  He taught them to be good.  He civilized them and it evidently worked.  He taught them to be good.

 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2008, 05:50:38 PM »
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It would be odd indeed, if a nation steeped in Calvinist doctrines of total depravity was not influenced by this.

I am fully aware that the 19th century argument  for limited government was in part motivated by the Calvinist understanding of original sin. As you surely know, not all Founders shared this view, and to be sure, some fractions believed in it more than others did. Recall, in this vein, Cecilia Kenyon's Men of Little Faith - one of the most seminal articles on the birth of the Constitution, and Akhil Reed Amar's monography on the Bill of Rights. To sum it up, here, the Federalists bought into this view to a greater extent than the opposition (some of the Anti-Federalists expressed doubts). To say Calvinist views of original sin dictated (rather than influenced) the formation of the Constitution would be stretching the historical truth.

Furthermore, classical-liberal thought continued to evolve after the Founders. Adam Smith and Edmond Spencer, for example, expressed a greater belief in the competence of individual men than the Founders did, and certainly much more than, say, Hamilton did (who was a truly creepy fellow).


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But give a man ultimate power over another man (without, or sometimes even with, the bonds of paternal love or previous friendship), and the man's fallen nature becomes apparent in most cases.

I do not feel that I am inherently fallen. I feel that I am a good person and so are you.

Regardless, I feel that power offers man three kinds of corruption. The obvious kinds are there - the ability to rule over other men or to accept bribes or otherwise manipulate the office for one's own personal gain - but I feel the most insidious immorality occurs when men believe that they need more power to help other people, that other people need their help forced on them , not from these.

I studied with a young lady who volunteered with the Israeli equivalent of your Child Protection Services. She was convinced that her agency needed more and more power to seize children from their parents, that it was always better to remove a child from a family than otherwise. In fact, she thought the American notion of having to go before a court before seizing a child in all cases where a child was not in immediate danger of harm to be ridiculous. She did not understand at all when I pointed out that she may not be the best arbiter of what's good for other people's children.

[It is to be said here that where I live, this agency is a LOT more abusive than its American equivalent].

Was she evil? Was she corrupt? No, she genuinely wanted to help children.  Yet in her desire to help those children she, and others like her, ruined many families too. Multiply it by thousands of people who genuinely want to help out, and a small fraction who are really evil or corrupt (who are surely few), and you get modern big government.

I apologize for not answering your and grampster's post in more detail.  I am currently at Ben-Gurion Airport, waiting for 2swap to arrive from Germany, and my battery is running out. I will post more tomorrow or later today, and hopefully will be able to provide you with more detailed references and maybe even footnotes. :D
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Perd Hapley

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Re: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2008, 01:37:52 AM »
Your friend with Child Protective Services is a perfect example of why even the most well-meaning humans are evil, when left to their own devices.  Perhaps you are distracted by the word "evil."  I could have said bad, or morally flawed, they amount to the same thing.  I'm not saying that all people are Hitler or Manson, I'm just saying that they are inclined to commit moral wrongs from time to time, or even continually. 

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To say Calvinist views of original sin dictated (rather than influenced) the formation of the Constitution would be stretching the historical truth.

And "influence" was the word I used.  ???

And again, don't confuse moral weakness with incompetence.  While I don't agree with the slogan that "greed is good," it reflects a more precise truth.  To wit, one reason that limited government, and the free market, work is that they offer fewer temptations to human nature.  If all men are wicked, it follows that you would let each man be responsible for himself, and learn from his mistakes, only intervening when one man has violated another man's clear rights; rather than give over-weaning power to a few (corrupt) men, to lord it over other corrupt men.  Also, this allows each of us to do what we do best, look out for ourselves.  It is a form of social organization that allows for the impiousness of human nature, and channels it to a pragmatic good.  As opposed to previous systems that trusted in the magnanimity of kings or noblemen. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:42:40 AM by Mr. Tactical pants »
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Scout26

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Re: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2008, 02:29:04 AM »
Mmmm, can we get back to playing Whack-A-Mole on Gov Blago and the rest of the elected mopes from the state of Illinois ??
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Gewehr98

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Re: IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2008, 11:50:03 AM »
I tried bringing it back from the thread veer once, and pretty much failed, it appears. 

5 pages is enough, regardless.

Enjoy the annual Politics Place vacation, folks.
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