Author Topic: police taser diabetic  (Read 9321 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2008, 07:06:02 PM »
Ok, please lay out the non-taser scenario.  You pull over a guy who appears to be drunk or high.  What you expect the police to do? 

Too many variables. Is he agitated or otherwise appears to be dangerous (vodka/meth/PCP)? Or is he just slumped in his chair and inactive (some types of other drugs/medical issues)? In short, does he pose a threat?
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MechAg94

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2008, 07:10:33 PM »
Is anyone saying he shouldn't have been pulled over?  I think posters on this thread are taking issue with his having been tased, not his having been pulled over.

Wow.

First, it is not the job of the police to punish people by the roadside.  There is this little thing called due process.  If this was a punitive tasing, then I don't care if he was trying to shoot everyone within a couple yards with a pair of full-auto AKs.  THe police have no business punishing people in a roadside stop.  Their function is to maintain public safety, not punish people.

Second, I do not think it is fair to hold someone responsible for what they do when they are unconscious or semi-conscious.  The exception is when they chose to get into that state through drug or alcohol abuse.  I'm pretty sure some laws agree with me on that point.  No, a guy shouldn't be punished for losing his ability to control to operate his vehicle unexpectedly due to an unanticipated sudden illness.
I was responding more to the recent posts.  I am trying to figure out how the cops were supposed to treat him differently just because he was diabetic and after the fact found to be in shock.  Were they qualified to determine the difference?  Should they be?  If they see the medic alert bracelet, should they just give him a sugar packet and say "Have a nice day, sorry we pulled you over"?  If they need to get him out of the vehicle to determine what his condition is (high or in shock) and he is fighting them, should they employ some force to address that?  

Same as above I guess.  What would you rather see them do?  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 07:19:55 PM by MechAg94 »
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MechAg94

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2008, 07:18:03 PM »
I agree Micro.  There are too many variables, but I don't understand some of the viewpoints on this. 

IMO, it doesn't matter why he was impaired initially. 
I am not sure exactly when the cops were supposed to figure out he was in shock and not high or drunk. 
I guess I feel that some people think tasers are deadly weapons should never be used unless a gun could also be used. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2008, 07:28:35 PM »

IMO, it doesn't matter why he was impaired initially. 


Okay, here's the way I feel about it:

Look at the video. The guy is not fighting and attacking the cops in any way. He doesn't punch the cops or even cuss them out. They could have bodily ripped him out of the car, for the love of God, and it would have probably been safer.




Quote
I guess I feel that some people think tasers are deadly weapons should never be used unless a gun could also be used. 

This is a stretch. Obviously, tasers are an alternative to guns.

In some instances, when the threat to the officer invovles an unarmed suspect, it may be best to use a taser.

But using a taser to force compliance from non-violent suspects is.... a titanically bad idea if it becomes an expected practice.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2008, 07:30:08 PM »
They could have bodily ripped him out of the car, for the love of God, and it would have probably been safer.

no
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2008, 07:31:26 PM »
They could have bodily ripped him out of the car, for the love of God, and it would have probably been safer.

no

I exaggerate for dramatic effect.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2008, 07:33:59 PM »
we call that something else here   2 letters
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Regolith

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2008, 07:46:20 PM »
Some of these comments are freaking rediculous....


The guy was in a diabetic shock.  He didn't choose to get into diabetic shock.  It's similar to having a stroke while driving.  Very unfortunate, dangerous, but not the guy's damn fault.

Second, using a taser on a NON VIOLENT subject is an abuse of power.  Period.  Full Stop.   Tasers are an alternative to firearms.  In other words, they should be used when deadly force is justified but not necessarily necessary.  NOT TO GAIN COMPLIANCE. Especially not on a subject who is suffering from a medical emergency.  I don't give a damn if the cops thought he was drunk, they were under no threat and could have taken the time to assess the situation and figure out differently.

These cops should be sued out of house and home.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 07:53:31 PM by Regolith »
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2008, 08:22:13 PM »
After watching the video, and considering his abysmally low blood sugar, I'd presume he was not resisting but was more like dead weight.  I don't think he should have been tased.  In that situation (and I admit I know little or nothing about police procedure), I would be inclined to call for help (backup and/or an ambulance), try to get a response from the guy in the meantime, and then (once help arrives) try to get him out of the car (which I would turn off beforehand).  If the dude had OD'ed on some drug or something, he'd probably need medical attention anyway, and the sooner the better.

I would be strongly disinclined to tase anyone who wasn't clearly trying to present some kind of a physical threat, especially since some people (I've heard) have bad reactions to being tased, up to and including death.

Taking it to an absurd level, what if someone tased me (say as a prank), and arriving police tried to get me to "comply"--would they tase me because I was unresponsive?  It seems that the purpose of the taser is to make someone less responsive (but more tractable) by giving them something else to respond to.  As such, it doesn't make sense to use it when someone is just dead weight--it won't help the situation any.

El Tejon

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2008, 07:35:19 AM »
Quote
Ok, please lay out the non-taser scenario.  You pull over a guy who appears to be drunk or high.  What you expect the police to do?

Non-taser scenarios are laid out every day in most cities (well, where people do not have morons for cops)--you call for an ambulance. 

How many police reports have I read where there is a motor vehicle accident, or a Purdue students wipes out on a bike, or an elderly woman falls in the courthouse and appears drunk or high, BUT THE COPS CALL FOR AN AMBULANCE.  Hundreds of reports?  Maybe several hundred?

The cops in Sheepkisser, Oklahoma wanted to play tough guy, like a John Wayne movie, and play with their toy, the taser.  Problem with John Wayne movies is that they did not show John Wayne being prosecuted for federal civil rights violations or having the pants sued off of him.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2008, 08:25:33 AM »
t they did not show John Wayne being prosecuted for federal civil rights violations or having the pants sued off of him.


cause ussually thats the bluster that comes from a cheeto eater. it happens very rarely and the cops are insured up to the amouint most of the ambulance chasers settle for.  =D  most of the good lawyers don't take the cases until its a rodney king
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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El Tejon

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2008, 08:57:07 AM »
Quote
ussually thats the bluster that comes from a cheeto eater. it happens very rarely and the cops are insured up to the amouint most of the ambulance chasers settle for.    most of the good lawyers don't take the cases until its a rodney king

Very true.
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

MechAg94

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2008, 10:01:29 AM »
Second, using a taser on a NON VIOLENT subject is an abuse of power.  Period.  Full Stop.   Tasers are an alternative to firearms.  In other words, they should be used when deadly force is justified but not necessarily necessary.  NOT TO GAIN COMPLIANCE. Especially not on a subject who is suffering from a medical emergency.  I don't give a damn if the cops thought he was drunk, they were under no threat and could have taken the time to assess the situation and figure out differently.

These cops should be sued out of house and home.
There were discussions on THR and elsewhere a while back in which some police officer posters pointed out that the procedures cops are governed by don't see it that way.  Some departments consider tasers something that should be used before even laying hands on the suspect.  That was a while back, but many of those police departments don't see tasers as the dangerous weapons like you do.

I assume that if they bodily drag him from the vehicle and his shoulder is dislocated in the process, that none of you would be in favor of suing the cops for brutality. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2008, 10:25:48 AM »
There were discussions on THR and elsewhere a while back in which some police officer posters pointed out that the procedures cops are governed by don't see it that way.

I think this would be called 'part of the problem' in plain English.

Quote
cause ussually thats the bluster that comes from a cheeto eater.

In that case, the world needs a few (million) more cheeto eaters.
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ilbob

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2008, 11:19:06 AM »
Force of any kind should never, ever be used against non-violent, non-resisting offenders solely to gain compliance with police orders of dubious legality.

Its legit to pull him over for driving erractically. After that, everything that was done was just plain morally wrong, even if he had been drunk.
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 11:39:11 AM »
I assume that if they bodily drag him from the vehicle and his shoulder is dislocated in the process, that none of you would be in favor of suing the cops for brutality. 

It generally takes quite a bit of force, applied to very specific areas, to dislocate someone's shoulder.  If a guy is dead weight, then tasing him is inappropriate in my opinion.  Under the circumstances I would hope that the legal ramifications for dislocating the man's shoulder would be similar to what I would get for doing the same thing, under the circumstances of trying to give first aid.  What if the guy had hurt his spine, in some seizure or something?  Tasing him could kill him.  People not in the throes of diabetic shock have died from being tased.

When a person is non-responsive and semi-conscious, it is unreasonable to expect them to comply with your orders, regardless of what your orders are, and why they are semi-conscious.  The proper response should be to provide first aid or call someone who knows how.  Turn off and remove the key to the car if such action can be done safely, call for an ambulance, and wait.  I mean, it's not unusual for more than one police car to show up for a less-than-routine stop, so it's not like it's an undue strain on the police force.

Slight drift:  It's a good thing such policies (and technology) didn't exist in the 60's--imagine what the aftermath of a sit-in would have looked like.  If civil disobedience is removed from the repertoire of ways to address perceived injustice, we're left with one less step between ballot box and cartridge box--not a good thing, in my opinion.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2008, 03:00:03 PM »
In that case, the world needs a few (million) more cheeto eaters.


no just less bluster
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Blakenzy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
It is my understanding after having read various TASER use cases that "Pain Compliance" is a very popular tactic among police forces, not limited to electrocution; that it's perfectly legal and constitutional according to courts, and does not constitute police brutality.

Fact is, you may get TASERed over pretty much any form of passive resistance, including refusal to sign a document (remember that lady that got electrocuted in her car because she refused to sign a traffic ticket? -can't find link-), or lying on the road side with a broken back (that kid that jumped from an over pass, breaking his spine after which he got tasered over 10 times IIRC because he wouldn't follow commands and move http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=13894.0). I wonder if tasers will soon be approved for use to get a confession out of suspects that refuse to "cough it up".

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« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 04:24:07 PM by Blakenzy »
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Regolith

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2008, 04:14:51 PM »
Rudy's got it right.  They shouldn't have hauled him out of the vehicle.  They should have recognize that he was non-responsive and called an ambulance.  Then waited for the EMT's to show up.  It really isn't that difficult to check if a person's responsive.  Hell, they taught that to us in basic first aid.

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Werewolf

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2008, 04:43:01 PM »
Quote
Second, I do not think it is fair to hold someone responsible for what they do when they are unconscious or semi-conscious.  The exception is when they chose to get into that state through drug or alcohol abuse.  I'm pretty sure some laws agree with me on that point.  No, a guy shouldn't be punished for losing his ability to control to operate his vehicle unexpectedly due to an unanticipated sudden illness.

Quote
The guy was in a diabetic shock.  He didn't choose to get into diabetic shock.  It's similar to having a stroke while driving.  Very unfortunate, dangerous, but not the guy's damn fault.

BS on both counts. Diabetes today - be it type 1 or type 2 is extremely controllable. The only way someone can go into diabetic shock these days is if:

1) They have diabetes and don't know it yet - not as uncommon as one might think.

2) They don't test and treat themselves as they should.

3) They are ill from some other disease which masks the recognizable pre-symptoms so you don't treat yourself

1) is excusable.
2) and 3 aren't.

I don't have diabetes but various members of my family including my wife do. I've lived around it for all of my life. If you have diabetes and you know it and you go into diabetic shock it is because of your personal negligence. You didn't test your blood sugar as often as recommended. You didn't eat what you are supposed to and/or ate what you aren't supposed to.

2) is sheer negligence and right up there with drunks who get drunk and drive
3) is almost negligence because if you've had diabetes for more than a little while you'll know that even something as simple as a cold can monkey with blood sugar levels.

So this guy that got tased: If he didn't know he had diabetes he shouldn't be held responsible. If he did then he's just as responsible for his condition as a drunk is for his.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2008, 04:45:14 PM »
So? He did not pose a threat to the police. Nor would a drunk in this situation. A taser is not a form of punishment.
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Seenterman

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2008, 05:20:19 PM »
Quote
hurts less than the club

The hundreds of people that have died as a result of being tazed would argue with you.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2008, 05:29:24 PM »
hundreds?  you using micros exaggeration for effect?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Strings

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2008, 05:53:37 PM »
Y'all REALLY need to seperate the two issues.

1) Was he driving while impaired (was it a good stop). I don't think anyone is arguing that this wasn't a good stop.

2) Was the use of the TASER in this case appropriate? Hell no: it should NOT be used as a compliance tool. Whether the man's impairment was because of an unexpected bloodsugar drop, or because he had just drank the Pabst brewery dry, he was not a threat...
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: police taser diabetic
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2008, 06:18:25 PM »
BS on both counts. Diabetes today - be it type 1 or type 2 is extremely controllable. The only way someone can go into diabetic shock these days is if:

1) They have diabetes and don't know it yet - not as uncommon as one might think.

2) They don't test and treat themselves as they should.

3) They are ill from some other disease which masks the recognizable pre-symptoms so you don't treat yourself

1) is excusable.
2) and 3 aren't.

I don't have diabetes but various members of my family including my wife do. I've lived around it for all of my life. If you have diabetes and you know it and you go into diabetic shock it is because of your personal negligence. You didn't test your blood sugar as often as recommended. You didn't eat what you are supposed to and/or ate what you aren't supposed to.

2) is sheer negligence and right up there with drunks who get drunk and drive
3) is almost negligence because if you've had diabetes for more than a little while you'll know that even something as simple as a cold can monkey with blood sugar levels.

So this guy that got tased: If he didn't know he had diabetes he shouldn't be held responsible. If he did then he's just as responsible for his condition as a drunk is for his.

thank you for pointing this out.

the man who killed charlie had no exscuse. he knew he was diabetic and refused to take the medication that he had been given. He killed a man due to gross negligance on his own part, not because of  an unforseeable accident. 
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