Author Topic: Air raid!  (Read 52011 times)

lupinus

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #175 on: January 05, 2009, 03:31:38 PM »
Quote
Yes, you cant negotiate with people who want to destroy you.  Until you negotiate with them, and they drop the idea of wanting to destroy you.  Then you have peace, but under no circumstances should you negotiate with them until then.
Do you live in lala land?  They bring nothing to the table but die, or at the very least get off the land we want it.  That's their position, they haven't budged from it for decades.  YOU CAN NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE.  Your problem is you expect them to be logical about the situation.  Everyone is more then willing to have reasonable negotiations.  They have yet to negotiate anything beyond die or get the hell out.

Quote
Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them.
In an instance where they do not want peace and insist on attacking....yes.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Manedwolf

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #176 on: January 05, 2009, 03:33:03 PM »
Yes, so the best way to deal with them is to drop bombs on them.  And their neighbours.  And their plumbers.  And their plumbers neighbours.  In fact anyone who uses reasonably large cylindrical objects is probably asking for it, and come to think of it what kind of people live next to people who use reasonably large cylindrical objects anyway?  They probably want to die too.  

Oh, and some other people who live suspiciously near the border.  

Whatever you do, dont talk to them!  They want to die!

Are you at all familiar with how your own government successfully and completely dealt with the Thugees?

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #177 on: January 05, 2009, 03:40:21 PM »
Do you live in lala land?  They bring nothing to the table but die, or at the very least get off the land we want it.  That's their position, they haven't budged from it for decades.  YOU CAN NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE.  Your problem is you expect them to be logical about the situation.  Everyone is more then willing to have reasonable negotiations.  They have yet to negotiate anything beyond die or get the hell out.

Yes, the Israelis are perfectly willing to have reasonable negotiations.  Not with Hamas, of course - its not as if they are the elected government or anything, and besides they are all mad!  Everyone knows it! They are willing to discuss things with Fatah though, who after all have a long history of suicide bombing, terror attacks and other major crimes against Israel and the West are our current friends.  They will be more than willing to propose a return to sensible borders that we choose to impose on them.

They did not bring anything to the table because they were not invited to it.  They were never invited to it.  Having a peace deal between two parties, one of which isnt invited is not a peace deal.

Quote from: lupinus
In an instance where they do not want peace and insist on attacking....yes.

Of course they dont want peace!  They proved that when we didnt invite them to the peace talks!

 =(

Quote from: manedwolf
Are you at all familiar with how your own government successfully and completely dealt with the Thugees?

By police methods? 
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Scout26

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #178 on: January 05, 2009, 03:48:26 PM »
Agri,

You cannot neogiate with someone who keeps punching you in the face.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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FTA84

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #179 on: January 05, 2009, 03:53:29 PM »

Illustrated:



This picture pretty much sums up this thread.  No one disagrees that this picture is what is going on.  The question of course becomes, are you justified in taking out the woman on the left while trying to get to the man?

Now I have no problem if Hamas were fighting, even guerilla-type warfare if they:
a) Didn't hide among civilians
b) Attacked Israeli defenses / government buildings

What other choice does Israel (or any other nation in that situatoin, as I have no ties for Israel) have?  Should they just accept potshots at civilians forever?  

The fact is Israel is not killing civilians, Hamas is killing them, because Hamas is using them as human shields.

seeker_two

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2009, 04:57:11 PM »



This picture pretty much sums up this thread.  No one disagrees that this picture is what is going on.  The question of course becomes, are you justified in taking out the woman on the left while trying to get to the man?


All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....
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Iain

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #181 on: January 05, 2009, 05:17:07 PM »
All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....

And this was such a nice thread.
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Scout26

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #182 on: January 05, 2009, 05:20:45 PM »
All things considered....all three are legitimate targets...esp. considering that the children are being taught to take up jihad from an early age....best not to leave an enemy at your back....

Ummmmm, nope.   :mad:
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
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lupinus

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #183 on: January 05, 2009, 06:07:54 PM »
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Yes, the Israelis are perfectly willing to have reasonable negotiations.  Not with Hamas, of course - its not as if they are the elected government or anything, and besides they are all mad!  Everyone knows it! They are willing to discuss things with Fatah though, who after all have a long history of suicide bombing, terror attacks and other major crimes against Israel and the West are our current friends.  They will be more than willing to propose a return to sensible borders that we choose to impose on them.

They did not bring anything to the table because they were not invited to it.  They were never invited to it.  Having a peace deal between two parties, one of which isnt invited is not a peace deal.
Please do refresh my memory...who broke the Egypt brokered cease fire again?  Oh that's right, Hamas!
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #184 on: January 05, 2009, 06:28:11 PM »
Please do refresh my memory...who broke the Egypt brokered cease fire again?  Oh that's right, Hamas!

Yes, the Israeli attack in November had nothing to do with it, nor did the continued blockade.  There is a good Wikipedia article with sources on the development of the crisis here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background
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De Selby

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #185 on: January 06, 2009, 02:43:28 AM »
Yes, the Israeli attack in November had nothing to do with it, nor did the continued blockade.  There is a good Wikipedia article with sources on the development of the crisis here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Background

What you're missing is the presumption here:  Israel has the right to kill, and Palestinians do not.  Therefore, Israeli attacks are irrelevant in the timeline of causes, because they were right to do it.  Palestinian attacks are always wrong, so even if the rockets follow a bombing by Israel, those rockets are an act of aggression.

I think your original parallel to the IRA was spot on.  It was a religiously fanatical organization that was finally defeated when....the UK organized a sit down and invited the terrorist political arm to join the government with the ability to negotiate real concessions and to have its population represented.

The result? Not more terrorism-virtually no terrorism now, compared to near constant terrorist agitation before the government capitulated and gave Sinn Fein nearly everything it asked for short of expelling all the loyalists.

But the lessons you all learned so hard over there in the English speaking world won't transfer, it seems.
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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #186 on: January 06, 2009, 02:52:04 AM »
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The result? Not more terrorism-virtually no terrorism now, compared to near constant terrorist agitation before the government capitulated and gave Sinn Fein nearly everything it asked for short of expelling all the loyalists.

That is really quite wrong - the Government did not capitulate to Sinn Fein, they just ensured that the vast majority of the causes of the revolt (the sundry injustices and harrassment faced by Catholics, the economic deprivation of the communities and the presence of the Army) were either totally removed or heavily mitigated.  Once these had gone, there was a lot of pressure from the communities that had supported PIRA (who, like nearly all terror groups, had unsportingly hid amongst the civilian population) to stop the violence or lose support.

It also helped that the last ten years of the Troubles had seen the Army and RUC be very successful in targetting PIRA members, and that the Conservative Government of Major was willing to make (and be publically seen to make) concessions and admit where it had gone wrong in the past, both legally and tactically.  As you note, the end result has been a largely successful peace, which is its own reward.

edit:  there is also the question of whether independence really matters that much anymore - Eire and the UK are both EU members, after all.  If we ever take up the Euro then there will be virtually none.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #187 on: January 06, 2009, 04:21:33 AM »
How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves? 

Why shouldn't the Israelis seek a full and complete victory (full surrender from Hamas on Israel's terms)?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 04:41:58 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Manedwolf

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #188 on: January 06, 2009, 04:25:11 AM »
How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves? 

A nuclear-tipped missile, apparently.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #189 on: January 06, 2009, 04:27:04 AM »
A nuclear-tipped missile, apparently.
How many nuclear tipped missiles?  Just one...? 

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #190 on: January 06, 2009, 04:48:21 AM »
How many more rockets have to land in Israel before they're justified in trying to defend themselves? 

Why shouldn't the Israelis seek a full and complete victory (full surrender from Hamas on Israel's terms)?

How many Palestinian civilians have to be blown up by the Israelis before they are justified in trying to defend themselves? 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #191 on: January 06, 2009, 04:53:18 AM »
How many Palestinian civilians have to be blown up by the Israelis before they are justified in trying to defend themselves? 

From Hamas?

That's who is getting them killed.

What sort of POS uses an occupied nursery school to shoot from?

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #192 on: January 06, 2009, 05:09:06 AM »
From Hamas?

That's who is getting them killed.

What sort of POS uses an occupied nursery school to shoot from?

Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools? 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #193 on: January 06, 2009, 05:13:05 AM »
Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools? 

Oh, for god's sake.

NO. IT'S ALL MADE UP. Hamas just wants to grow flowers and sell them to the Israelis and the mean nasty joooz keep shooting them and eating their children.

What is WRONG with so many people in Europe? Is it going to take the all-out extension of the jihad to the UK to make them realize "Oh, this is rather unexpected...they are refusing to come in for tea, they've just beheaded the neighbors. Perhaps they're not such nice sorts after all. Whatever shall we do now?"

Christ. :P

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #194 on: January 06, 2009, 05:20:38 AM »
Oh, for god's sake.

NO. IT'S ALL MADE UP. Hamas just wants to grow flowers and sell them to the Israelis and the mean nasty joooz keep shooting them and eating their children.

What is WRONG with so many people in Europe? Is it going to take the all-out extension of the jihad to the UK to make them realize "Oh, this is rather unexpected...they are refusing to come in for tea, they've just beheaded the neighbors. Perhaps they're not such nice sorts after all. Whatever shall we do now?"

Christ. :P

Yes, we in Europe have no experience with terrorism (or terrorists that hide amongst civilian populations), and no experience with genocidal neighbours who live nearby.  I only wish we had the lengthy experience that the domestic US has in all forms of terrorism.

That said, we usually back up our statements with facts.  Do you have any evidence that Hamas is firing rockets from occupied nursery schools?
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Nitrogen

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #195 on: January 06, 2009, 09:21:52 AM »
Do you have any evidence that they are firing rockets from occupied nursery schools? 
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1231/p01s02-wome.html
Quote
But as the conflict stretches on and Israeli warplanes and drones seek out Hamas commanders and other militant leaders hiding in neighborhoods in the densely packed coastal strip, it will be harder to contain civilian deaths.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm

Previous evidence of rockets being fired from civilian areas.  But since this comes from Israel itself, it's obviously photoshopped and fake, right?
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lupinus

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #196 on: January 06, 2009, 09:26:42 AM »
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Yes, we in Europe have no experience with terrorism (or terrorists that hide amongst civilian populations), and no experience with genocidal neighbours who live nearby.  I only wish we had the lengthy experience that the domestic US has in all forms of terrorism.
No, yall just seem to have forgotten it.

Perhaps we should have just kept sitting down and talking to Hitler while he was turning the over temperatures up.  He probably wasn't such a bad guy....just misunderstood and needed to be bargained with.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #197 on: January 06, 2009, 09:45:30 AM »
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1231/p01s02-wome.htmlhttp://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm

Previous evidence of rockets being fired from civilian areas.  But since this comes from Israel itself, it's obviously photoshopped and fake, right?

Forgive me, I cannot see any evidence that Hamas have been firing rockets from occupied nursery schools, which after all was the question that was asked (which you should be aware of, given that you quoted from it). 

As for your claim about "rockets being fired from civilian areas", at least two of those clips show rockets being fired from relatively open ground, and the Gaza Strip is in any case one of the most densely occupied parts of the world - there is not that much non-occupied ground to use.  In any case, as has been repeatedly stated before this hiding amongst the civilian population is what terror groups do - be they the IRA, the Eurocommunism groups, Arab groups or (heaven forbid) the Jewish terror groups that carried out all manner of atrocities prior to Israel being set up. 

The other evidence presented there - like this photo (selected because the wider view remarkably appears to be of a completely different location to the inset picture):



are so open to abuse (the pic is captioned A Hamas Kassam rocket manufacturing shop in the Darj
neighborhood of Gaza
) as to be worthless, without supporting evidence that is as likely to be a kebab shop as it is a rocket manufacturing place.


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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #198 on: January 06, 2009, 09:51:35 AM »
No, yall just seem to have forgotten it.

Perhaps we should have just kept sitting down and talking to Hitler while he was turning the over temperatures up.  He probably wasn't such a bad guy....just misunderstood and needed to be bargained with.

Yes, we should definately oppose the fundamentalists with the overwhelming miltary strength that have carried out ethnic cleansing of areas and ensured the ghettoization of millions of innocent people.  Oh wait!
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Sindawe

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #199 on: January 06, 2009, 09:53:54 AM »
Quote
selected because the wider view remarkably appears to be of a completely different location to the inset picture

Look again.  In the wide shot that occupies most of the main frame, the building across the street from the highlighted structure has a long courtyard or alley in it.  This same feature is found on the bottom of the inset frame.  Also in the main frame; above the highlighted structure is another building which sits an an oblique angle to the highlighted structure.  This can also be seen in the inset frame.
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