Author Topic: Obama announces tax, energy plan  (Read 9215 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2009, 11:43:55 AM »
What is wrong with solar panels in the desert?

They cost a lot to maintain the steering motors and other equipment, and they're not very efficient.

CA shut down a perfectly good 900MW reactor and built a solar array there instead. Massive array. At peak sunlight, it produces...4MW.

Ben

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2009, 12:06:15 PM »
And there is the pre-installation environmental damage from solar cell and companion equipment mining and manufacturing processes. Solar panels ain't made from rose petals and morning dew.
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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2009, 02:04:49 PM »
And there is the pre-installation environmental damage from solar cell and companion equipment mining and manufacturing processes. Solar panels ain't made from rose petals and morning dew.
Nuclear waste is a tad worse than a little bit of HF.  Not that I'd want to play in either.  Maned you have a good point, when you are replacing nuclear plants with solar.  My point though is that solar is a great supplemental.  It is always there, and it has no pollution except at the manufacturing level.  Same reason why wind is so nice, it might be expensive, but you don't need anything else, just wind.  These are good supplements to nuclear power, which I am definitely in favor of. 
In the world of science, there is physics.  Everything else is stamp collecting.  -Ernest Rutherford

Manedwolf

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2009, 02:14:18 PM »
Nuclear waste is a tad worse than a little bit of HF.  Not that I'd want to play in either.  Maned you have a good point, when you are replacing nuclear plants with solar.  My point though is that solar is a great supplemental.  It is always there, and it has no pollution except at the manufacturing level.  Same reason why wind is so nice, it might be expensive, but you don't need anything else, just wind.  These are good supplements to nuclear power, which I am definitely in favor of. 


You need constant maintenance on the steering motors of solar arrays. You need to replace relays and switching gear, which fails as it does on any large power handling system.

Turbines need a LOT of maintenance, they need someone to be paid to climb up and do lubrication, they need cranes to replace bearings, they need checks on the braking gear. And they sometimes catch fire, or fail even more spectacularly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o Massive Vestas turbine brake failure and spectacular structural failure...wouldn't want to be ANYWHERE near that.

Turbines on fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkTUY2slYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N4HQv-UyUo

That all costs money. There is no free power.

Ben

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2009, 02:43:04 PM »
Quote
Nuclear waste is a tad worse than a little bit of HF

When you look at energy output per unit, and given new technologies for waste reuse and disposal, not all that bad, perhaps better.

There isn't anything wrong with solar as a supplement for a large grid, or as a primary power source for individual homes or small settlements.
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El Tejon

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2009, 04:13:24 PM »
Quote
They cost a lot to maintain the steering motors and other equipment, and they're not very efficient.

Solar panels are also expensive to maintain and dangerous to the workers.  They also inflict damage to the environment that the Greenies never want to talk about, just like wind farms.

When IDNR started noticing dead raptors around the Benton County windmills, the Greenies claimed that they were "planted" and windmills don't really kill birds. ;/

Solar panels are just like wind mills--tax-payer funded tributes to Lefties to absolve themselves of their White Guilt and they care not how much of your tax money it takes so they can feel smug about themselves.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2009, 04:39:55 PM »
As a solar panel owner and somebody working to go completely off-grid myself, I don't particularly like how this thread is going, especially the slant imparted by the post prior to this one.

Discuss the merits, but let's leave the White Guilt bit out, ok?  That's damned near as bad as the Paulistas/wookie suits and all the other barking moonbat/tinfoil hattery. 

Besides, gas is cheap again.  We don't need to worry about alternative energy sources, I've got that on good advice.  ;)



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MicroBalrog

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2009, 05:47:56 PM »
I don't understand why people attack solar panels so much, really I don't. I mean, I understand the leftists want to shove them down your throat, but really - as Gewehr98 has pointed out, they're excellent for a private person using them to power his house.
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RevDisk

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 06:36:25 PM »
I've been all for nuclear power after I came to understand that it has been made so much safer than in the past AND they most likely won't be hiring idjits who will allow another 3 Mile Island to happen.

Three Mile Island was caused by the operating company not paying to fix stuff and did not provide as much training as should have been required.  The NRC was partly to blame for not smacking Met Ed prior to the incident.  But, as incidents go, it was pretty friggin minor.  As far as anyone can determine, no one died, got cancer from, or had even a shortened lifespan from the TMI-2 reactor incident.  These days, you can walk through the area where the TMI-2 reactor was located without any special gear.  Folks apparently are still under the belief that was TMI-2 reactor incident was a mini Chernobyl, or even had the potential to become a mini Chernobyl.  I lived literally within walking distance of TMI for 10 years and I was never worried.  Seems the less a person actually knows about nuclear power, the more opposed to it they are.  Everyone within spitting distance of TMI loved it, because the power was so cheap, it kept taxes low and it was significantly more safe than the coal plant down the river.

Nuclear power is the safest, cheapest and cleanest form of energy production we have or will have until fusion comes economically viable.  Gods, if folks actually knew how much thorium-232 and uranium-238 is cranked out from burning coal, they'd be begging for more nuke plants.


I don't understand why people attack solar panels so much, really I don't. I mean, I understand the leftists want to shove them down your throat, but really - as Gewehr98 has pointed out, they're excellent for a private person using them to power his house.

Solar panels are excellent at a reducing your home's monthly power bill.  Assuming you put in enough panels, orient them correctly, etc etc.  They're good for remote locations that are not economical to wire with power as well.  Solar is excellent for small applications.  It's too expensive and non-continuous for wide spread use.  Plus lots of areas just flat out don't have the open land. 

Their primary problem is they just don't scale.  I heard of a new solar array out in the desert.  140 acres to produce 15 MW.  Peak.  No power at night, very little at morning and evening.  My state alone has 9 reactors generating 9,229 MW.  Continuous.  Replacing them with solar would require 86,137 acres.  Minimum, just to cover peak.  And that's assuming we're in a desert, which we are not.  All 9 of those reactors require slightly less than 140 acres, including containment, support and maintenance structures. 



« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 11:27:27 PM by RevDisk »
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AF_INT1N0

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2009, 06:43:09 PM »
As the guy who is going to pay for his plan, I'd like to voice my opposition to this "plan". =D

Give the sluggards more money?  How about getting out of my way and let me put people to work and buy stuff for my business?

Stop making sense El Tejon...  "The One" doesn't like when you make sense..
Can just keep repeating..
Yes we can..
Yes we can..
Yes we can..

Balog

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2009, 02:21:14 PM »
I'm not anti-solar. In certain limited niches it's great.

But people suggesting it as a viable alternative to conventional means of electricity generation are either unaware of or simply choose to ignore the facts. Even in desert states with a lot of free space like NV solar simply cannot keep up with demand.

IOW, people like G98 who choose to utilize it for themselves are probably making a good and logical choice. People who try to ram it down the throat of the public as some green panacea are either ignorant, deluded or using it as an excuse to expand the .gov's power.
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K Frame

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2009, 02:40:29 PM »
"I lived literally within walking distance of TMI for 10 years and I was never worried."

I grew up not far from TMI, and was there when the incident occurred.

Even though it eventually turned out to be a contained accident, the spectre of being driven from your home for a long, long time is a very powerful, and lasting, one.

I've not looked at nuclear energy the same since then.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2009, 02:43:58 PM »
"I lived literally within walking distance of TMI for 10 years and I was never worried."

I grew up not far from TMI, and was there when the incident occurred.

Even though it eventually turned out to be a contained accident, the spectre of being driven from your home for a long, long time is a very powerful, and lasting, one.

I've not looked at nuclear energy the same since then.

Reactor design has advanced about as far since the 1970's as all other high tech has. They're not the same at all, newer ones. And the next gen, pebble-bed, isn't even capable of runaway. If cooling stops, fission stops.

I see nuclear power a little differently, too. Cold can kill here, and that reactor at Seabrook helps ensure that the lights can stay on no matter what. The supply of oil could shut off, and it'd still be fueled for a number of years, pumping out megawatts of power nonstop.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 03:18:39 PM by Manedwolf »

El Tejon

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2009, 03:15:40 PM »
I have no problem with individuals putting up solar panels on their homes, Gew.  Of course, you will need to cut your grass, keep your trash can out of sight, park your cars in the garage, take down your Christmas lights down by January 3rd, not throw trash in your front lawn like my neighborhood Ron Paul voter, and refrain from putting sharks in your window as well.

I object to tax-payer funded solar panels and *looks out window* windmills.  These debacles are nothing more than sop to White Guilt.

"Boo hoo hoo, I am warm and comfortable, I feel bad and must make others suffer for my guilt."
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2009, 03:22:38 PM »
I must make sure to move in next door to El Tejon once I get my degree.
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El Tejon

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2009, 04:37:49 PM »
Because you will keep your property up?

I'll even let you wear your Wookie suit when you mow your grass, Micro.  Move your Ron Paul signs, just don't mow around them. =D

*Make sure you stay away from the Cheetoes when you wear your Wookie suit mowing in the summer.  It can get humid here and the salt will wear you down, especially all covered up in Wookie fur*
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Obama announces tax, energy plan
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2009, 05:11:34 PM »
*makes note to actually get a Wookie suit*.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner