Religions of APS Members

[GigaBuist]

3rd hand story, but years back I was told somebody said to one of my uncles, as a compliment, "You're a very religious man."

His response:  "No, I am not.  Religions cause wars.  I have faith."

Religion, politics, even sports, and a myriad of other things can result in absolutely idiotic levels of violence when the people behind it get more wrapped up in promoting their "label" than just enjoying their club and minding their own business.

Faith, on the other hand, that never hurt anybody.

[RevDisk]

grampster,

i find that many of those from religions that preach converstion, often press the issue on others. sometimes in a manner seems almost unintentional. for example, i often find that christians i know personally, openly pity me for the fact that i don't believe the same thing they do. it usually comes across as 'oh what a nice girl, such a pity the poor thing doesn't believe in christ, and will go to the bad place'. i find that EXTREAMLY offensive (as well as terrifing), on multiple levels.
i realize that in most cases this is oversensitivity on my part. i've had one to many so called christians trap me in a corner and essentually demand that i convert.

"Come to the dark side, we have cookies."

Works on hitting on members of the opposite sex, AND converting folks to paganism!   



Probably for the best that I don't do rituals with the fluffy bunnies, right, BrokenPaw?   

[GigaBuist]

You claim that God cares about some other part of his creation, more than he cares about humanity.  What does he find more important or more interesting, and on what do you base this dogma of yours? 

You didn't ask this of me, but it's something I've wanted to address while reading this thread, so I'll try and answer it.

If we're important to God then how in the world can you explain the 20th century?  Or any of history?  7 million of his Chosen People were slaughtered at the hands of a nutjob thad had 42 active teams working to kill the bastard.  Why did God thwart their assignation attempts?  Why did He let that mental midget aquire power anyhow?  That alone, stopping Hitler from coming to power, would have prevented 50,000,000 human deaths.

In the 20th century alone we know that over 170,000,000 people were killed by their own governments, not including those that died in war.  Yet we know from the Bible's teachings that we're to submit to our leaders.  "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1

Either God's taken a hands off approach or He put Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc in power, and the people that He put in power murdered people.

I'm much more comfortable believing in a "hands off" God than I am a "hands on" one.  

He made us, taught us, and has left us to fend for ourselves with an open invitation to come to Him for advice every now and again, just as my Earthly father has with me personally.

Neither meddle in my day to day affairs.

[Nematocyst]

...

[roo_ster]

"Come to the dark side, we have cookies."

We got cookies.  And doughnuts & coffee.

If we decide to break out the big guns & have a potluck* dinner, I'll bet on the ladies' main dishes and baked good to beat back the forces of...whatever.

[Jamisjockey]

There is a reason I don't argue religion anymore.
Ever ask anyone why they support XYZ football team?  They don't usually have a real sensible reason, but damned if they don't bleed team colors, wear the jersey on cas fridays, and cry when they lose.....
And several of you are now pissed off that I just reduced your chosen form of mythology to a comparison with being a football fan.  Tough.

[lee n. field]

If Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker are in "the good place"

Wouldn't bet money on it, myself.

[Jamisjockey]

Wouldn't bet money on it, myself.

Depends on what parts you decide to pick and choose.  If you believe in salvation through Christ, then, well, you might have a seat at the table next to the Fayes.
(Where is the "neener" smiley?!?)

[MrRezister]

I consider myself an optimistic agnostic, in that I can't concieve of any set of conditions or series of events that would result in the emergence of something that would eventually become self-aware out of what most seem to agree was at one point absolutely nothing.  I don't consider any amount of time, however vast, to be an acceptable explanation for what is effectively a miraculous occurrence.

On the other hand, I doubt that there is some omnipotent force or being watching over us, and looking for reasons to judge us worthy of eternal reward or punishment.  And if there is, then I seriously doubt we have the capacity to understand the true nature or intention of such a force.

So my cop-out answer is "not enough information".

[Jamisjockey]

So my cop-out answer is "not enough information".

Faith is the antithesis of reason.  You don't need "enough information" to have faith, which is a big reason why the "does god exist" discussion breaks down quickly. 
After living in Utah and getting cornered by Mos alot, I learned alot about the hows and whys of the religion discussion. 

[makattak]

Faith is the antithesis of reason.  You don't need "enough information" to have faith, which is a big reason why the "does god exist" discussion breaks down quickly. 
After living in Utah and getting cornered by Mos alot, I learned alot about the hows and whys of the religion discussion. 

>.<

I'm sure Fistful will be here to refute that quickly, but as I get first crack, allow me to state:

Faith is NOT the antithesis of reason. God does not ask me to believe "just because."

Faith is the result of reason, not the opposite.

I have faith in Christ because I have seen what He has done.

I have faith in my car because I have seen what it has done.

I have faith in my sidearm because I have seen what it has done.

I have faith in <fill in the blank> because I have seen what it has done.

Faith is the result of your reason. We have had two thousand years of people following Christ to flesh this out. Read a little Aquinas or Augustine or Lewis to see how faith and reason are joined.

Why is it people cannot comprehend this?

[BrokenPaw]

One mistake that I believe several people here are making (and part of the reason that threads like this seem always to devolve into spite and vitriol) is that there is a vast difference between what one can know and what one can prove.

Knowing comes from absolute faith in an idea; it is the absence of doubt.  But simply knowing something is not sufficient to prove it to someone else.

Josh McDowell's treatise is compelling (I attended one of his seminars when he visited Virginia Tech back in '91 or '92), but ultimately (in my opinion), all it proves is that the Bible is a consistent document.  It doesn't prove that the spiritual things beyond the ken of man that the Bible speaks about are true, because such things cannot be proven; it merely proves that the document itself is an accurate record of certain events.

Scenario  (A real stretch, and not something I profess, but it makes a point):  Could an all-powerful God, capable of creating the Universe, not arrange the historical things that happened in the bible, for purposes entirely other than what are stated in the Bible?  (I'm not asking whether He did.  I'm asking whether He could.)  And the answer, if you think about it honestly is: yes.  The veracity of the Bible's account of historical events, even if it is unequivocally true, cannot speak with certainty about the motives of God.  So as compelling as McDowell's evidence is, it proves nothing of the actual Mind of God.

There are things that I know, without a shadow of doubt in my mind, are true.  Some of these things are in conflict with things that others here (perhaps Christians, for instance) know with equal certainty.  Is there any point for me to argue with them to try to "prove" these things?  No, there is not, because "knowing" and "proving" are entirely separate things.  Likewise it's pointless for them to try to "prove" the things they know to me?

Everyone here knows something.  No one here is going to prove any of that to others who know something different.

In the interest of civility, I suggest we back down from arguing over which path to reach the Divine is the right one.  We are all on our own path for our own reasons, and that should be enough for everyone else.

-BP

[Kwelz]

I have faith in Christ because I have seen what He has done.

Congratulations, that would make you the oldest living person on earth. 

/sarcasm off

You can not see what Jesus did in his life, you can't even prove he existed. 
This is like saying I have faith in Prometheus because we can use fire. 

Reason requires proof and logic, the results are not always what we expect or even want.  Faith can not function if reality doesn't mesh with the desired results. 

And BrokenPaw, I know only what I can prove.  I see what you are saying but I dnt' think I can agree with you.  Your assumptions are based on the false idea that the bible is acurate.  Something that has been Proven false.  Of course the entire bible hasn't been proven false.(Yet) However there have been enough holes in it make the entire book questionable. 

[makattak]

Congratulations, that would make you the oldest living person on earth. 

/sarcasm off

You can not see what Jesus did in his life, you can't even prove he existed. 
This is like saying I have faith in Prometheus because we can use fire. 

Reason requires proof and logic, the results are not always what we expect or even want.  Faith can not function if reality doesn't mesh with the desired results. 

And BrokenPaw, I know only what I can prove.  I see what you are saying but I dnt' think I can agree with you.  Your assumptions are based on the false idea that the bible is acurate.  Something that has been Proven false.  Of course the entire bible hasn't been proven false.(Yet) However there have been enough holes in it make the entire book questionable. 

I cannot "prove" He existed (to your satisfaction) anymore than you could prove (by the same standard you will require) George Washington existed.

Reason requires LOGIC, and if you only know what you can "prove", you know very few things.

Faith and reason come from evidence and logic. Simply because you reject evidence does not negate its implications.

As to your nebulous concept that the bible has been proven false, it is hard to respond to a charge given without evidence.

 

[BrokenPaw]

And BrokenPaw, I know only what I can prove.  I see what you are saying but I dnt' think I can agree with you.  Your assumptions are based on the false idea that the bible is acurate.  Something that has been Proven false.  Of course the entire bible hasn't been proven false.(Yet) However there have been enough holes in it make the entire book questionable. 

You're not paying attention.

I'm the minister of a Pagan church.  I do not believe the Bible.  I believe that it does accurately record some historical events of the time.  I believe that that fact in and of itself does not prove that it is the inspired work of a benevolent Creator.  That was, in fact, the entire point of that post, which you seem to have missed.

Be careful with your own assumptions, lest you look a fool.

Kwelz, a question was asked about what people believe.  People are stating what they believe.  If you don't like what some people believe, that's fine.  There's no need to be impolite about it.  You telling Christians that their faith is based upon naught (in your pervasive knowledge of the Universe) is no different from them proselytizing to you; if you would not like them doing that, then you have no cause to do the reverse.

-BP

[Jamisjockey]

Actually, Kewlz, there is proof that he existed.  A well known Roman historian from the period wrote about him. 

>.<
Faith is NOT the antithesis of reason. God does not ask me to believe "just because."

Faith is the result of reason, not the opposite.

I have faith in Christ because I have seen what He has done.

What has he done?  A fuzzy feeling in your heart, or the odd medical miracle?   

This is the promised slippery slope.

 

[makattak]

Actually, Kewlz, there is proof that he existed.  A well known Roman historian from the period wrote about him. 


What has he done?  A fuzzy feeling in your heart, or the odd medical miracle?   

This is the promised slippery slope.

 

My faith is not based on "feelings" or anything so fickle.

Such a faith would, therefore, be changed by what I had for lunch or how I slept last night. Feelings are not bad things, but they are not to be trusted, either.

I have seen His hand in the ordering of my life, in the change I see in other lives, and, yes, sometimes in miraculous ways. (Not in my life, though).

The evidence of a creator surrounds us, simply because you choose to reject said evidence does not negate it.

I do note you ignored my other examples of faith. All come from previous evidence as well.

[roo_ster]

Kwelz, a question was asked about what people believe.  People are stating what they believe.  If you don't like what some people believe, that's fine.  There's no need to be impolite about it.  You telling Christians that their faith is based upon naught (in your pervasive knowledge of the Universe) is no different from them proselytizing to you; if you would not like them doing that, then you have no cause to do the reverse.

Careful, BP.  That sounds awfully reasonable. 

And that bit about applying the same standard to believers' (in whatever) and non-believers' efforts/methods at proselytizing just is not in tune with the zeitgeist*.  Double-standards are preferred, nowadays.






*  Can I use a term that means "spirit of the times" if the prevailing spirit of the times is to deny the existence of the spiritual?

[Jamisjockey]

Evidence of what?
Sorry, all I see is evidence of an immeasurable amount of possibilities.  The possibility of your religion being true and accurate is no less valid than the possibility of this being an Alien Ant Farm gone wrong. 
I don't wish to sound as if I'm belittling your faith.  Good for you.  But its just faith in one possibility amongst billions of possible scenarios. 
To use "God", one who has always been, as the reason to explain the unexplainable is simplistic in my way of reasoning. 
For God to have always been, firstly, you must change how we reason time and the universe.  To bend human thought in that direction opens the counter argument: If you contend God has always been, and is a benevolent slave driver who just created this all from nothing, then you must be able to reason the possibility that this has always been, in one form of energy or another, in an existence that we cannot fathom. 
I'd write more, but I've gotta get the kids from school

[makattak]

Evidence of what?
Sorry, all I see is evidence of an immeasurable amount of possibilities.  The possibility of your religion being true and accurate is no less valid than the possibility of this being an Alien Ant Farm gone wrong. 
I don't wish to sound as if I'm belittling your faith.  Good for you.  But its just faith in one possibility amongst billions of possible scenarios. 
To use "God", one who has always been, as the reason to explain the unexplainable is simplistic in my way of reasoning. 
For God to have always been, firstly, you must change how we reason time and the universe.  To bend human thought in that direction opens the counter argument: If you contend God has always been, and is a benevolent slave driver who just created this all from nothing, then you must be able to reason the possibility that this has always been, in one form of energy or another, in an existence that we cannot fathom. 
I'd write more, but I've gotta get the kids from school

Actually, I specifically avoided deep theological arguments as to the nature of God as this seemed to be a simple question of what we believe. I was trying to correct an errant view of faith.

I was going to say that God left the choice to you as to whether to believe in this Savior, but, of course, that is another argument as to whether you actually do have that choice.

And, indeed, I perfectly believe that just as I am certain gravity has no effect on God, I also believe he is unaffected by (and outside of) time.

I also believe I cannot know (in this plane) how that works. I also believe such knowledge is not necessary for faith- I don't need to know everything about God in order to believe in him, just as I don't need to know everything about my car to believe in it.

I do, however, endeavor to understand Him better. I am aware there are limitations on this mortal mind, though.

[Strings]

>We have had two thousand years of people following Christ to flesh this out.<

And the Hindus have had many times that number of years: by your logic, the existence of Shiva is more proven than than the existence of Jesus. Ummm... oops?

 "The test of time" is another one to stay FAR away from. Especially for followers of the Judeau/Christian beliefs: the Hindus got ya beat, and it doesn't take much to demonstrate. I do believe the Buddhists do too...

[Regolith]

>We have had two thousand years of people following Christ to flesh this out.<

And the Hindus have had many times that number of years: by your logic, the existence of Shiva is more proven than than the existence of Jesus. Ummm... oops?

 "The test of time" is another one to stay FAR away from. Especially for followers of the Judeau/Christian beliefs: the Hindus got ya beat, and it doesn't take much to demonstrate. I do believe the Buddhists do too...

So do the Jews, for that matter.

[BridgeRunner]

To use "God", one who has always been, as the reason to explain the unexplainable is simplistic in my way of reasoning. 

So?  Is simplicity a bad thing?

 

For God to have always been, firstly, you must change how we reason time and the universe.

Come again?

For many of us, our first and strongest concept of time and the universe is completely intertwined with a concept of God. 

[K Frame]

I'm druid, reformed.

We have better things to do with Virgins.

[Viking]

I'm druid, reformed.

We have better things to do with Virgins.

I used to be a Satanist. Then all the blonde virgins figured out what we were up to, and got rid of their virginity, which of course made everything impossible for us. I feel oppressed now. What are we supposed to sacrifice to our Lord Satan if there aren't any blonde virgins around?