Author Topic: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order  (Read 24072 times)

longeyes

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2009, 12:37:51 PM »
The War on Terror has been superseded by the War on Productivity.

And torture for the few replaced by torture for the many (us).

Get ready for a waterboarded economy with plenty of "laundering."
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ronnyreagan

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2009, 12:53:27 PM »
Or, it'll be worse as our military and intelligence services look for other avenues to detain and interrogate terrorists. Such as increased use of leaving them with our "allies" who have no standard of humane treatment whatsoever. Or simply searching for "plausible denial", and it happens completely anonomyously in the field. Field telophone, testicles, and an unmarked grave...

Gitmo is going to look like heaven in comparison. Both for what will really happen to terrorists and "people of interest/suspicion", and for what America will become now that there's incentive to detain and interrogate "off the books".

Are you saying that we should keep Gitmo open as a nice central torture spot in order to prevent agents from torturing suspects in the field unsupervised? And if by banning torture Obama is encouraging it off the books, does that mean that by authorizing torture Bush prevented?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 01:04:37 PM by ronnyreagan »
You have to respect the president, whether you agree with him or not.
Obama, however, is not the president since a Kenyan cannot legally be the U.S. President ;/

Lennyjoe

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2009, 12:58:47 PM »
Say it aint so.....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/23/gitmo.detainee/index.html

Detainee went from Gitmo to al Qaeda, officials say

A Saudi national released from U.S. detention at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in September 2007 is believed to be a key leader in al Qaeda's operations in Yemen, according to a U.S. counterterrorism official.


Ali al-Shiri was released in 2007 from the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

 The Defense Department recently estimated that more than 60 terrorists released from Guantanamo may have returned to the battlefield.

According to the counterterrorism official, freed detainee Ali al-Shiri traveled to Yemen after being released to Saudi Arabia and may have been involved in recent al Qaeda attacks in Yemen, including a car bombing outside the U.S. Embassy in Sanaa last year that killed nearly a dozen people.

"He is one of a handful of al Qaeda deputies in Yemen," the official said. "He is one of the top terrorists."

His title is deputy and senior operations commander, the source said.

According to the magazine Sada al-Malahem, or The Echo of the Epics, published by al Qaeda in Yemen, al-Shiri attended a media session in which Yemen commander Abu Baseer was interviewed.

The magazine identified al-Shiri as Baseer's deputy commander and quoted Baseer as announcing that al Qaeda's operations in Yemen and Saudi Arabia have been combined to become al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula.

The magazine noted that al-Shiri was released from Guantanamo more than 10 months ago.

He fled a Saudi jihadi re-education program, where he went after his release, a Saudi source told CNN's Nic Robertson.

President Obama on Thursday signed an order mandating that the Guantanamo Bay prison be closed within the year. What to do with the detainees has been a hotly debated topic.

The issue of freed detainees engaging in terrorism is one concern. Another is housing them in prisons inside the United States. 

Rep. Bill Young, R-Florida, said he has "quite a bit of anxiety" about the possibility of transferring detainees to U.S. facilities.

"Number one, they're dangerous," Young said. "Secondly, once they become present in the United States, what is their legal status? What is their constitutional status? I worry about that, because I don't want them to have the same constitutional rights that you and I have. They're our enemy."

Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo facility received immediate backing from his general election opponent, Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain.

McCain, in a joint statement with South Carolina GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, said he supported Obama's decision to "begin a process that will, we hope, lead to the resolution of all cases of Guantanamo detainees."

But Thursday night on CNN's "Larry King Live," McCain said the new president may have been hasty in the decision and should have taken the time to consider everything associated with closing the camp before forcing himself into a timetable.

Specifically, McCain said he thought Obama needed to consider what would happen to the prisoners held at Guantanamo before ordering the facility to be closed.

"So, the easy part, in all due respect, is to say we're going to close Guantanamo," McCain said. "Then I think I would have said where they were going to be taken. Because you're going to run into a NIMBY [not in my backyard] problem here in the United States of America."  Watch what may happen to Guantanamo's inmates »


Asked about that issue Thursday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, "We have developed some options in terms of how many we think could be returned to other countries to take them. That diplomatic initiative has not started. That will await work in carrying out the executive order."

"We have identified a number of possible prisons here in the United States" that could take the detainees. However, Gates added, "I've heard from members of Congress [representing] where all those prisons are located. Their enthusiasm is limited."



AJ Dual

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2009, 01:25:38 PM »
Are you saying that we should keep Gitmo open as a nice central torture spot in order to prevent agents from torturing suspects in the field unsupervised? And if by banning torture Obama is encouraging it off the books, does that mean that by authorizing torture Bush prevented?

Sure, why not.   ;/

Although before we go there, I think we need to codify just how much actual "torture" is going on at Gitmo. And for the sake of fairness, cite no sources that are irreperably biased towards finding "torture".

I'll concede that there was waterboarding going on at one point. And I'll admit that I haven't lost much sleep over it. Other things described as "torture", such as isolation, screwing with sleep and day/night cycles, not allowing someone to sit, etc. I would not describe as "torture".

If you want to be an ununiformed stateless combatant dedicated to the creation of a world-wide caliphate, too bad, be thankful we caught you, and not Pakistan.

But thanks to people who were desperate to discredit the previous administration however they could, and incapable of keeping human rights issues separate from partisanship, we'll never really have a clear picture of what went on, what didn't, or an honest debate to set just where the "line we won't cross" is.

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ronnyreagan

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2009, 01:56:04 PM »
If you want to be an ununiformed stateless combatant dedicated to the creation of a world-wide caliphate, too bad, be thankful we caught you, and not Pakistan.

I don't have much sympathy for those who are "stateless combatants dedicated to the creation of a world-wide caliphate" either - I don't think anyone is particularly sorry for them. However, I don't believe there's much evidence that everyone in Gitmo falls into that category and the problem is they have little recourse to prove otherwise.

Is it worth imprisoning and torturing (or just short of torturing if you prefer) innocent people in the quest for the guilty?

I don't understand how so many conservatives can bemoan the incompetence of big government but when it comes to imprisoning people indefinitely and using "enhanced interrogation techniques" their outlook suddenly changes - "oh well I'm sure they're doing a fine job at that! No worries that they don't need to file charges, produce evidence, or ever release you! It's hard work, TRUST THEM!"
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 02:20:54 PM by ronnyreagan »
You have to respect the president, whether you agree with him or not.
Obama, however, is not the president since a Kenyan cannot legally be the U.S. President ;/

Lennyjoe

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2009, 02:02:53 PM »
It changes when the folks they have locked up there would rather lop your head off rather than shake your hand.

AJ Dual

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 02:26:17 PM »
I don't have much sympathy for those who are "stateless combatants dedicated to the creation of a world-wide caliphate" either - I don't think anyone is particularly sorry for them. However, I don't believe there's much evidence that everyone in Gitmo falls into that category and the problem is they little recourse to prove otherwise.

Is it worth imprisoning and torturing (or just short of torturing if you prefer) innocent people in the quest for the guilty?

I don't understand how so many conservatives can bemoan the incompetence of big government but when it comes to imprisoning people indefinitely and using "enhanced interrogation techniques" their outlook suddenly changes - "oh well I'm sure they're doing a fine job at that! No worries that they don't need to file charges, produce evidence, or ever release you! It's hard work, TRUST THEM!"


Well, there's not as much of a discrepancy as you think.  Conservatives do tend to trust those in our government, but mainly it's the "tip of the spear" types who are encountering the enemy combatants. They tend to have the common sense God gives to pigs and more, because if they don't, they run a good risk of winding up dead.

The guys our guys find with AK-47's, RPG's, huts full of IED making stuff, and with a laptop full of AQ emails from OBL, are generally speaking, who we're looking for. I sincerely doubt many innocent goat-herders huddled in a ditch, stuck in the crossfire, and were found once the smoke cleared, are at Gitmo. AFAIK, any mistaken cases are people given over to us by the more Keystone Kop elements of our "allies".

I've never seen anyone come up with a percentage of innocent to not-innocent detainees. However, my gut feeling (I admit, just my opinon) is it's probably pretty similar to the ratio in our own judicial system and domestic prisons, even our death rows. And no-one (at least of any stature as compared to our MSM/liberal establishment et-all) is suggesting we scrap our prison system over the innocents, so why Gitmo?

And I should not need to argue the stakes are much higher. Unlike even the worst criminals who murder onesy-twosey, directly or indirectly, these people are tied to a movment proven capable of murdering thousands of American civilians in one blow.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 02:29:20 PM by AJ Dual »
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longeyes

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2009, 02:29:55 PM »
The irony is that what our enemies want is a form of organized torture.
"Domari nolo."

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ronnyreagan

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »
The guys our guys find with AK-47's, RPG's, huts full of IED making stuff, and with a laptop full of AQ emails from OBL, are generally speaking, who we're looking for. I sincerely doubt many innocent goat-herders huddled in a ditch, stuck in the crossfire, and were found once the smoke cleared, are at Gitmo. AFAIK, any mistaken cases are people given over to us by the more Keystone Kop elements of our "allies".

Did you read my link from earlier in this thread? (now edited into this post) According to that report only 5% of Gitmo detainees are brought in by U.S. forces, 86% were provided by our "allies."

I've never seen anyone come up with a percentage of innocent to not-innocent detainees. However, my gut feeling (I admit, just my opinon) is it's probably pretty similar to the ratio in our own judicial system and domestic prisons, even our death rows. And no-one (at least of any stature as compared to our MSM/liberal establishment et-all) is suggesting we scrap our prison system over the innocents, so why Gitmo?
No one is suggesting we scrap that system because it works. People are charged and brought to trial and if convicted they even get appeals. The main issue with Gitmo is that  people are sitting there for years without ever being charged with anything or given a trial. They're just stuck there without a system.

Edited in links:
The one I referred to is here http://law.shu.edu/aaafinal.pdf
There are more here http://law.shu.edu/center_policyresearch/Guantanamo_Reports.htm
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 03:21:47 PM by ronnyreagan »
You have to respect the president, whether you agree with him or not.
Obama, however, is not the president since a Kenyan cannot legally be the U.S. President ;/

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2009, 03:04:04 PM »
whats the source of that report?  i seemed to have missed it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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GigaBuist

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2009, 07:12:16 PM »
whats the source of that report?  i seemed to have missed it

The words after the tiny numbers at the bottom of the pages indicate the sources.  As you read through it you find those little numbers and then look to the bottom of the page to see where they got that information from.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2009, 07:52:03 PM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE50C5JX20090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Pentagon: 61 ex-Guantanamo inmates return to terrorism
Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32pm EST  Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page[-] Text

 
1 of 1Full SizeBy David Morgan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Tuesday that 61 former detainees from its military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, appear to have returned to terrorism since their release from custody.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said 18 former detainees are confirmed as "returning to the fight" and 43 are suspected of having done in a report issued late in December by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Morrell declined to provide details such as the identity of the former detainees, why and where they were released or what actions they have taken since leaving U.S. custody.

"This is acts of terrorism. It could be Iraq, Afghanistan, it could be acts of terrorism around the world," he told reporters.

Morrell said the latest figures, current through December 24, showed an 11 percent recidivism rate, up from 7 percent in a March 2008 report that counted 37 former detainees as suspected or confirmed active militants.

Rights advocates said the lack of details should call the Pentagon's assertions into question.

"Until enough information is provided to allow the press and the public to verify these claims, they need to be viewed with a healthy degree of skepticism," said Jennifer Daskal, a Washington-based lawyer for Human Rights Watch.

Rights advocates contend that many Guantanamo detainees have never taken up arms against the United States and say the Defense Department in the past has described former detainees as rejoining "the fight" because they spoke out against the U.S. government.

"The Defense Department sees that the Guantanamo detention operation has failed and they are trying to launch another fear mongering campaign to justify the indefinite detention of detainees there," said Jamil Dakwar, human rights director at the American Civil Liberties Union.

President-elect Barack Obama, who takes office next Tuesday, is expected to issue an executive order to close the Guantanamo Bay prison. Defense Secretary Robert Gates also favors shuttering Guantanamo.

But the prison is unlikely to shut until after U.S. officials settle a myriad of legal and logistic issues, including a solution on where to house its occupants.

About 255 men are still held at the U.S.-run naval base in Cuba, a symbol of aggressive interrogation methods that exposed the United States to allegations of torture.

Pentagon officials say that about 110 detainees should never be released because of the potential danger they pose to U.S. interests.

Washington has cleared 50 of the detainees for release but cannot return them to their home countries because of the risk they would be tortured or persecuted there.

The Pentagon said it considers a former detainee's return to terrorism "confirmed" when evidence shows direct involvement in terrorist activities. U.S. officials see a "suspected" terrorism links when intelligence shows a plausible link with terrorist activities.

"Propaganda does not qualify as a terrorist activity," the Pentagon said in a statement.

(Additional reporting by Andrew Gray, editing by David Alexander and David Wiessler)

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2009, 07:54:15 PM »
then there is the proff saying it isn't so.  course he is representing a couple gitmo fellers so hes clearly unbiased
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2009, 08:13:38 PM »
then the proff qualifies his stuff with  the data are obviosly limited but doen't let that stop him from making "reasonable assumptions" that surprisingly enough cast his clients in the best light possible.probably a decent land shark. and the gov isn't saying much using the national security racket.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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GigaBuist

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2009, 08:57:55 PM »
Quote
Morrell said the latest figures, current through December 24, showed an 11 percent recidivism rate, up from 7 percent in a March 2008 report that counted 37 former detainees as suspected or confirmed active militants.

Yeah.  Like we were saying:  The majority of these guys don't pose any threat to Americans.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 11:39:16 PM by GigaBuist »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2009, 11:42:00 PM »
not in gitmo they don't


unlike this guy who posed no harm near the embassy in Yemen  just a carpet buyer he was

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/23/mideast/detainee.1-414168.php?page=1

as reported by that well known conservative rag the new york times
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2009, 11:44:59 PM »
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/05/us_releases_9_from_guantanamo.html

wonder what happened to the 5 guys we sent back to afghanistan. or the morrocan.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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stevelyn

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2009, 11:54:09 PM »
I am somewhat surprised that he has acted that boldly and swiftly. Overall, I think we are better off with both of these, but of course, most here will disagree.  Its a shame that we spent $500 million building a prison facility there, only to have it closed down a few years later.

I only had one issue with Gitmo and that was keeping prisoners there indefinitely without charges or a way of resolving them to a final disposition. I don't care if it's by military tribunal, the American courts or even taking them out back and putting a bullet in the back of their head. But there has to be a path to exonoration, a legitimate prison sentence or a dirt nap.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2009, 01:21:34 AM »
not in gitmo they don't

unlike this guy who posed no harm near the embassy in Yemen  just a carpet buyer he was

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/23/mideast/detainee.1-414168.php?page=1

as reported by that well known conservative rag the new york times

When I was in the 5th grade, way back yonder, I had a horrible experience one day.  Nothing much by adult standards, but it seriously jacked with my head on that day.  It was a simple math lesson related to money and debt.  The teacher's assistant laid out the problem to the class and it was basically that your monthly rent is $100 a month. In Janurary you can only pay $75.  How far in debt are you?  Well, $25.  In February you can only pay $90.  How far in debt are you? $10 was the answer.  In March you can pay nothing so you are $100 behind.

Obviously these figures don't make any sense in the real world.  I was carrying over debt from the previous months and kept giving up the wrong answers.  I thought I was losing my damned mind.  I was never wrong on simple math problems.  This went on for what seemed like half an hour and somehow neither of the two adults in the room figured out I was doing it the right way  and kept telling me I had the wrong answer.

I find myself in a similar situation tonight.  I hold the position that the overwhelming majority of the folks in Gitmo don't have any real ties to terrorism and if released they don't pose a threat to the US.  I'm not the only one here that believes that.

In response to that position you whip out an article that says 89% of those released have no ties to terrorism and don't pose a threat to the US.

Now, I only took 3 or 4 advanced mathematics classes in college, and never really got any education beyond high school in statistics, so I might be out of the loop or missing something but how in hell do you construe "89% of these guys are no threat to America" to mean something different than "The overwhelming majority of these guys post no threat to America?"

I believe we are in disagreement on this matter but I do admit there's the possibility that I've misunderstood your position.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2009, 01:50:23 AM »
i don't know one way or another whether any of em are a threat niether do you or the good proffesor. all any of us know is they got nabbed by someone who claimed they were fighting against us. gentlemen like the guy who made the news today demonstare that even with the checks they run now before they cut em loose they cut the wrong guy loose.  pqart of the battle they have investigating is the guys clam up  lie and give conflicting stories. not a way to make folks trust you. were it up to me i'd hand em over to the countries that amnesty internationals scared of and let them sort it out
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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De Selby

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2009, 08:02:36 AM »
Even with the pseudo-trials created under the last administration, the treatment of some detainees was so shocking that the prosecutions simply cannot proceed. 

If Obama really wants to undo the damage of this mess he should establish an inquiry, and indict everyone who knowingly facilitated torture. 

People who commit torture belong in a cell right next to the torturers and murderers of Al Qaeda.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Firethorn

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2009, 11:45:45 AM »
The fatal flaw has always been that people expect military prisoners to be treated with civilian rights and privileges.

I have to agree.

Having prisoners you don't know what to do with is an unintended consequence of a never-ending undelared war.

And how much of a punishment is it, given that we don't have enough for death penalty cases for most of them, to sentence them to 10 years or whatever, if the POW determination has already been made?

That's not to say all of these guys are POWs or should be given any such consideration.

That's part of the problem.  Even if you've commited warcrimes, you're still considered a POW, and must be treated as such until the trial is over.  From my understanding of the issue, we have a couple of determinations to make:

1.  Were they actually a combatant, deserving to be a POW?  If we can satisfy this requirement, it's an easy 'we can hold them, under the rules and regulations on POWs, for as long as the conflict is going on'.
2.  Did they commit crimes justifying holding a trial, or at least reason to believe they did?  Matters become more complicated if they weren't holding a gun or building a bomb. 

In either case, I believe that it's best to treat them as a POW until we've determined, by court, that they should be otherwise.  I'll also note that, especially for #1, the standard of proof isn't 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. 

For those that talk about how stupid we are for holding some of them, I'll point out that keeping somebody at GB is expensive.  Far cheaper to simply kick them out back to their home country.

Quote from: gigaBuist
When I was in the 5th grade, way back yonder, I had a horrible experience one day.  Nothing much by adult standards, but it seriously jacked with my head on that day.  It was a simple math lesson related to money and debt.  The teacher's assistant laid out the problem to the class and it was basically that your monthly rent is $100 a month. In Janurary you can only pay $75.  How far in debt are you?  Well, $25.  In February you can only pay $90.  How far in debt are you? $10 was the answer.  In March you can pay nothing so you are $100 behind.

That's why you show your work.  They were probably 'reseting' the situation month to month.  You recognized that it was a series situation.  They were going for deficit, you were looking at debt.  Showing your work would have had them going 'Oh, yeah!'. 

Are there innocents(of terrorism, at least) in Gitmo?  Probably.  However, I'm sure they have a much higher proportion of actual terrorist types there than even your standard prison population, much less domestic.  Also, people's behavior changes in prison; and often reverts when they leave it.  I also give the government enough credit to say that MOST of those picked up were picked up for a reason.

ronnyreagan

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2009, 12:26:20 PM »
For those that talk about how stupid we are for holding some of them, I'll point out that keeping somebody at GB is expensive.  Far cheaper to simply kick them out back to their home country.
Something being expensive is not an argument that it isn't stupid.

I also give the government enough credit to say that MOST of those picked up were picked up for a reason.
The ones picked up by our troops- sure I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. That covers less than 10% of the detainees though. You put that much faith in the Pakistani government and Northern Alliance?
You have to respect the president, whether you agree with him or not.
Obama, however, is not the president since a Kenyan cannot legally be the U.S. President ;/

Josh Aston

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Re: Obama closes Gitmo and officially bans torture by Executive Order
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2009, 03:09:23 PM »
Are there innocents(of terrorism, at least) in Gitmo?  Probably.  However, I'm sure they have a much higher proportion of actual terrorist types there than even your standard prison population, much less domestic.  Also, people's behavior changes in prison; and often reverts when they leave it.  I also give the government enough credit to say that MOST of those picked up were picked up for a reason.

Those that weren't terrorists when they got picked up likely are now.  These detainment facilities are nothing but a breeding ground for terrorism.  You take highly impressionable, ignorant young muslims and put them in a camp with hardened terrorists.  My higher ups thought that the way to calm the terrorists down was to mix them in with the not so bad types.  Yeah right.  Within a month the not so bad types are worse than the hardened terrorists. 
I'm from Texas, what country are you from?

Aston for POTUS Republic of Texas - 2016