Author Topic: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?  (Read 37725 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2009, 05:31:52 PM »
i've been looking at it for years  how about you?
explain to me why a state would refuse to allow dna testing when new technology becomes available? if their interest is justice
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2009, 05:50:47 PM »
we've cut loose 135 innocent folks off death row since the 70's

or using texas as an example 9 folks were released as innocent in that time.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2009, 08:46:35 PM »

So you've learned to live with being wrong?  I'll stay on the right side, thanks.   =)
As I'm not terribly familiar with Blackstone, perhaps you could tell me what conclusion he drew from this principle?  The logical conclusion would seem to be an utmost regard for due process, rather than the denial of justice (opposition to just punishment) which you have embraced.  As is common with left-wing points of view (not that I'm calling you left-wing), your position disposes of the baby with the bath-water. 

It's early, and I start work at five this morning, so I won't do the math.  How does that work out in terms of percentages?  Whatever it is, I'm sure we can beat it.  In an age of DNA evidence and other forensic tools, and such careful attention to due process, we should more comfortable with the death penalty - not less. 


You seem to have assumed that I concede the point that "execution = justice". I do not, and thus consider your first point invalid. The second brings us very close to the point where I find something else to do, as the leftwing/rightwing deal is pointless IMO.  =)

As for percentages and such, I hold that even one is too many. If you really put yourself into that position; really spend a few minutes imagining what it must be like for the innocently executed and his family, it ought to be pretty hard to blithely dismiss it.

Regardless, I'm going to try to steer this one back to my primary position: the only morally justifiable reason for taking life is in the immediate defense of another. I very much approve of the citizenry taking this to heart and executing such criminals wherever they come upon them -- but state sponsored execution years after the fact does not meet the criteria, as far as I am concerned.

Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2009, 08:48:16 PM »
Sorry, but I don't believe that the odds of convicting and executing someone by mistake is 4.5% these days.  Anti-death-penalty activists may claim that it is so, but I rank that right up with the "facts" the Brady Bunch uses to claim handguns are a menace.

I take issue with the idea that "out of the blue" assertions like "one in a thousand" carry as much validity as figures derived from research and investigation.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2009, 08:49:36 PM »
well its easier than looking at numbers that make you uncomfortable
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2009, 08:49:47 PM »
Why is it alright to put someone innocent away for life?

Why is it worse that an innocent person be executed?

Because there is no undoing a mistake once the innocent person is dead.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2009, 08:56:32 PM »
theres no undoing 20 years taken from someone either
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2009, 09:21:10 PM »
I take issue with the idea that "out of the blue" assertions like "one in a thousand" carry as much validity as figures derived from research and investigation.
I fail to see why I should accept someone else's biased and agenda-driven "research" over my own studies. 

Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2009, 09:26:26 PM »
theres no undoing 20 years taken from someone either

No, but at least he gets back the remainder.

Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2009, 09:27:38 PM »
I fail to see why I should accept someone else's biased and agenda-driven "research" over my own studies. 

Will you share with us the studies you undertook prior to arriving at your "1 in 1000" figures? And please, show your work.  =D

roo_ster

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2009, 09:42:11 PM »
Then it must also be true that our values include occasionally killing an innocent person.

Good luck finding a perfect system on Earth. 

With the advent of DNA testing and VERY LARGE budgets handed over to the defense teams in DP cases, I sleep very well at night knowing that we have driven the false positives down to as near-zero as practical.

I am glad that your attitudes are not those that rule the land in both DP cases or other human endeavor.  Humanity would still be screwing around trying to perfect the wheel so as to never produce one that was out of round or a wheeled machine that could result in injury or death to an occupant. 

We are also forgetting something: a jury of fellow citizens was convinced that every person on death row is a heinous murderer. 

I don't know about any of y'all, but I am not going to vote for "guilty," let alone the DP without very convincing evidence.  I am all about getting fija.org-ed up and making dang sure and well gov't proves its case and that the law is in accord with the COTUS*.  If those conditions are met, though, I have no problem imposing an appropriate penalty, including the DP.  That is justice.




* Note, "In accord with the Constitution of the United States (which allows for the DP)," not some candy-assed notion of my own that I seek to impose on all other citizens.
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roo_ster

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2009, 09:44:25 PM »
Quote
I am glad that your attitudes are not those that rule the land in both DP cases or other human endeavor.  Humanity would still be screwing around trying to perfect the wheel so as to never produce one that was out of round or a wheeled machine that could result in injury or death to an occupant.


This is the sort of nonsense that invariably brings down the discussion of controversial topics. Four pages is a good run though.  =|

MechAg94

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2009, 10:00:02 PM »


This is the sort of nonsense that invariably brings down the discussion of controversial topics. Four pages is a good run though.  =|
Don't be so smug.  Your arguments were nothing to be proud of. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2009, 10:10:14 PM »
so then the at minimum 135 folks that have been released as innocent so far is indicative of how well those large budgets et al work?and correct me if i'm wrong but the money only gets forked over if you go public defender. a regular working stiff pays as he goes  and truly in our system money walks
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2009, 10:16:46 PM »
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/06/12/deathpenalty/main204759.shtml


CBS) A new study finds that legal mistakes are not the exception, but the rule, in death-penalty cases nationwide, CBS News Correspondent Bob McNamara reports.

Columbia University researchers tracked all capital convictions from 1973 to 1995, nearly 5,800 cases. They found serious errors in 68 percent.

Two-thirds of death penalty cases that were appealed were successful, report researchers who contend the nation's capital punishment system is "collapsing under the weight of its own mistakes."

"It's not one case, it's thousands of cases. It's not one state, it's almost all of the states," says Columbia University law professor James Liebman, the lead author of the study. "You're creating a very high risk that some errors are going to get through the process."

There are so many mistakes, the authors express grave doubt that the appeals process can catch them all.

Of 28 capital-punishment states, Texas has carried out the most executions, 218.

 
Bulletin Board
Do the results of the study affect your opinion on capital punishment?

Click here to join the discussion.
 
 
 
In Houston on Monday, six men innocently sent to death row and later freed campaigned for the life of Gary Graham.

Graham is scheduled to die in 10 days -- convicted on the testimony of only one witness.

Gary Graham's lawyer Ronald Mock offered virtually no defense. And among Mock's clients were five men executed already, and six more who are waiting to die.

Still Texas Governor Bush says the system is fair.

He says, "I believe they've had full access to the courts and they've had full access to have a fair trial not only in the state system but in the federal system."

Bush recently granted Ricky McGinn a 30-day stay of execution so DNA tests could determine his guilt in the rape and murder of his step-daughter.

The governor's run for the White House has put the Texas death penalty system under a microscope. And numerous investigations have found some convictions based on jailhouse snitches, and defense attorneys who were judged incompetent, or who presented little defense of their client at all.

Liebman says, "All of these states, including Texas, are having more errors that they're generating than they're having successes, and that's creating a real rsk that something is going to go very badly wrong."

While some anti-death penalty advocates believe the latest reports on flaws in the system are another nail in the coffin of capital punishment, in Texas, support for the death penalty remains strong at 80 percent.

"It's been clear for a few years that there are major problems with the implementation of the death penalty in this country, " says CBS News Legal Consultant Andrew Cohen. "In Illinois, they've stopped them altogether because of a horrendous record; other states are considering similar moratoria and it's getting harder and harder for even the biggest death penalty proponents to ignore the effect DNA testing can have on most of these cases."

Earlier this year, Republican Gov. George Ryan of Illinois imposed a moratorium on capital punishment in his state after 13 death row inmates were exonerated.

The Columbia study said only 5 percent of the 5,760 death sentences imposed from 1973 through 1995 were carried out.

The study, written with Professor Jeffrey Fagan and graduate student Valerie West, examined 4,578 death penalty cases in which at least one round of appeals was completed. Of those cases, a state or federal court threw out the conviction or death sentence in 68 percent of the cases.

Richard Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Center, a group critical of how capital punishment is administered, said, "It's amazing how many mistakes are being made...Those supporting the death penalty might look at it and say this isn't getting us anywhere."

Dudley Sharp of Justice for All, a Houston-based victims' rights organization, said, "We all know that these cases get the closest scrutiny imaginable...All systems can be improved and the death penalty is certainly one of those systems." But, he added, there has been no proof of an innocent person being executed in the past century.

The study said the rates of reversals varied widely from state to state and among federal appellate circuits.

Texas, which executed 104 people during the study period, showed 52 percent of its death penalty cases reversed on appeal. Florida, which executed 36 people, had a 73 percent reversal rate.

On the other hand, Virginia, which executed 29 people, had a reversal rate of only 18 percent. The study suggested that may be partly due to Virginia's strict limits on appeals in death penalty cases and the overall low reversal rate in the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which hears appeals from that state.

Liebman said the 68 percent reversal rate appears to have come down some since 1995. A second study to be released later this year is expected to look at those numbers, as well as the reasons why death penalty convictions are thrown out.

The main reasons appear to be incompetent defense lawyering and misconduct by prosecutors, the Columbia study said.

Capital punishment resumed in 1977 afer a Supreme Court-imposed moratorium, and 313 people were executed by the end of 1995. In recent years, the Supreme Court and Congress have acted to speed up death penalty reviews in federal courts, and there have been 642 executions to date.


hey and maybe you texans can explain how

Gary Graham's lawyer Ronald Mock offered virtually no defense. And among Mock's clients were five men executed already, and six more who are waiting to die.
  you managed to get one lawyer to set 11 guys up to fry   pretty slick of you guys  or maybe its just coincidence?  11 times.  how does he get all those cases?  what judge is assigning him?  it can't be because hes got a good rep for defending em

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2009, 10:24:17 PM »
In an 11th-hour move, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals halted the January 27, 2009 execution of Texan Larry Swearingen.  Four forensic pathologists , including the medical examiner who testified against Swearingen at his capital murder trial, now say that Swearingen was in jail when Melissa Trotter, 19, was strangled and left in a national forest near Conroe in East Texas.  The 5th Circuit did not address his innocence claim, and the Montgomery County DA remains intent on seeing Larry executed, regardless of evidence of his innocence.
 

  hmmm some more recent lonestar justice?  or this?

Michael Toney

Since he arrived on Texas’ Death Row in 1999, Michael Roy Toney, of Lake Worth, has proclaimed his innocence to anyone he thought might listen. Nine and a half years later, he has everyone’s attention.  The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals has overturned Toney’s capital murder conviction because Tarrant County prosecutors withheld evidence favorable to his defense. Among the 14 documents were records that cast doubt on the testimony of two key witnesses against him.

what you boys gonna do to the prosecutor who with holds evidence?  is that illegal down there?


heres law in order in nc

Glen Chapman

The bologna and cheese sandwich that Glen Chapman savored Wednesday could have been his last meal.  Instead, it was his first as a free man after almost 14 years on death row.  Chapman, 40, was released from Central Prison on Wednesday after Catawba County, North Carolina District Attorney James Gaither Jr. dismissed murder charges against him.

Related:  A day after Glen Edward Chapman was freed from prison, the State Bureau of Investigation agreed to review allegations of perjury and obstruction of justice against Dennis Rhoney. The former Hickory police detective led the 1992 double-murder investigation that resulted in Chapman's convictions.  Ex-Cop Who Led Discredited Case Probed




you know the other bad thing about srewing up?   besides screwing the innocent and leaving a scumbag free to kill again?  every screwup tarnishes the integrity of the system and makes outlawing capital punishment much more likely
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2009, 10:26:21 PM »
Don't be so smug.  Your arguments were nothing to be proud of. 

I appreciate the thoughtful critique, although I have to say it is not as valuable as your other contributions to the thread.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2009, 10:27:37 PM »
ACLU and Texas Innocence Network Appeal Innocent Man’s Death Sentence
 
TEXAS - October 24 - At a hearing today before the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, the American Civil Liberties Union and the Texas Innocence Network (TIN) argued that death row inmate Max Soffar was unfairly prevented from proving his innocence at his second trial in 2006. The groups hope to overturn Soffar’s conviction in the capital murder case of four victims shot during an armed robbery in a Houston bowling alley in 1980. In 1981, Soffar was convicted and sentenced to death, but a federal court overturned his conviction in 2004 because his trial lawyers failed to argue that Soffar’s confession contradicted the account of the sole surviving witness and other reliable evidence in the case. The state of Texas retried Soffar last year and he was again convicted and sentenced to death.

“This case is a textbook example of a miscarriage of justice,” said John Holdridge, Director of the ACLU Capital Punishment Project. “From a false confession to two unfair trials and death sentences, the problems with Max Soffar’s case are gravely troubling. We must not allow the state of Texas to execute an innocent man.”

The ACLU and TIN argued that Soffar was denied the constitutional right to defend himself because Soffar’s trial judge refused to admit evidence that another man confessed to committing the murders. This man, Paul Reid, formerly of Houston, also committed a series of highly similar robbery-murders and now awaits execution on Tennessee’s death row. A photograph of Reid, taken in Houston nine days after the bowling alley incident, strongly resembles the police’s composite sketch based on the description of the crime’s sole witness. The ACLU and TIN also charged that Soffar was denied his constitutional rights when, during his second trial, the court refused to allow him to show that media reports of the crime contained all of the details in his false confession. The prosecution claimed that these details—although broadcast throughout Texas—could only be known by the person responsible for the crime.

Soffar was known by the police in 1980 as an unreliable and feeble-minded informant who often traded information for police assistance or money. Shortly after the bowling alley crimes took place, Soffar fingered his friend, Latt Bloomfied, as the perpetrator. Soffar also told police that he and Bloomfield had burglarized the same bowling alley the night before the incident – a crime the press reported as potentially related to the robbery-murders. The police soon learned that Soffar’s confession to the burglary was false and arrested others for that crime; yet even after Soffar’s first false confession, law enforcement continued to rely on another confession of his that implicated Soffar and Bloomfield in the robbery-murders. After his initial arrest, Bloomfield was quickly released and has never faced charges for the crime.

 “Max Soffar has been on Texas’s death row for almost three decades for a crime he did not commit,” said David Dow, Head of the Texas Innocence Network and one of Soffar’s attorneys. “We urge the court to do the right thing and strike down Mr. Soffar’s wrongful conviction. Too many innocent people have been executed as a result of mistakes in the system. The risk of executing an innocent man is unacceptable in a just society.”

John Holdridge added, “False confessions are far more common than the public realizes. According to the Innocence Project, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pleaded guilty in more than 25% of DNA exoneration cases.”

More information on Max Soffar’s case is available at: www.aclu.org/capital/innocence/29715res20070430.html

Lawyers on this case are Holdridge and Brian Stull of the ACLU Capital Punishment Project and Dow and Jared Tyler of the Texas Innocence Network



i don't mean to single out texas but they have more on death row.  virginia is just as bad if not worse  our appeals process used to be fubar  only recently changed
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2009, 10:31:02 PM »
any of you guys know what happened with this case?  find it in your research?
Final execution case with Bush as Texas governor under scrutiny

The Associated Press
Monday, September 10, 2007

HOUSTON: A Texas judge on Monday sided with an anti-death penalty group seeking to find out whether an inmate was wrongly executed, ruling that officials must keep a 1-inch (2.5-centimeter)-long piece of hair that was a key piece of evidence in the man's murder trial almost two decades ago.

The Innocence Project wants to know whether Claude Jones was wrongly executed in December 2000. Jones was the last of a record 40 inmates executed in America's busiest capital punishment state that year and the last of 152 inmates put to death during now-President George W. Bush's time as Texas governor.

The piece of hair led to Jones' conviction and execution for the 1989 shooting death of a liquor store owner in San Jacinto County, about 75 miles (120 kilometers) north of Houston.

State District Judge Elizabeth Coker set a hearing for Oct. 3 to consider whether DNA testing should be performed on the hair.
The Innocence Project, a legal clinic affiliated with the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University in New York, was among plaintiffs seeking the court order and the mitochondrial DNA testing, which was not available when Jones was tried.

"This was a case that really cried out for DNA testing because the physical evidence was so central to the conviction and it's very clear DNA testing can establish either way whether or not Claude Jones was wrongfully executed," Innocence Project attorney Nina Morrison said.

"Especially now that he's already been executed, the public interest really is in determining whether the procedures that were in place for determining innocence or guilt and whether someone should be executed were correct," she said.

At Jones' trial, an expert in hair analysis linked the hair to Jones. With his execution imminent, the inmate filed, and later asked to withdraw, an 11th-hour state court plea seeking DNA testing.

Other than the hair, the primary evidence against Jones was testimony from an accomplice, Timothy Jordan, who said Jones told him he committed the murder. Jordan and another man, Kerry Dixon, initially were arrested for the slaying. Jones was arrested later. Jordan got a 10-year prison term and Dixon a 60-year sentence. In an affidavit in 2004, Jordan said everything he said about the robbery and killing at the trial he learned from Dixon and that he testified against Jones to get a lighter sentence for himself.

The single strand of Jones' hair, found at the murder scene, was supposed to have been destroyed with the case long resolved but inexplicably was not.

"It's really a miracle it's preserved at all," Morrison said.


and why wouldn't the state want to test it and  know?  end the speculation? unless they are worried what they will find out
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2009, 10:33:52 PM »
You seem to have assumed that I concede the point that "execution = justice". I do not, and thus consider your first point invalid.

I have made no such assumption.  I am under no illusion that you will accept my argument.  I merely wish to make clear that a different point of view exists, based on different assumptions than your own. 

Quote
As for percentages and such, I hold that even one is too many.

"Even one is too many."  I disagree, and thus consider that point invalid. 

Quote

If you really put yourself into that position; really spend a few minutes imagining what it must be like for the innocently executed and his family, it ought to be pretty hard to blithely dismiss it.
I could just as easily flip that around, and accuse you of blithely dismissing the anguish of victims' families, whose suffering you have not spent "a few minutes imagining what it must be like."  But since you don't know what I have or have not imagined, and have no evidence on which to charge me with being "blithe," and I have no such grounds to make similar charges, perhaps such lines of argument are best left alone. 
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Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2009, 10:46:50 PM »
Quote
I have made no such assumption.  I am under no illusion that you will accept my argument.  I merely wish to make clear that a different point of view exists, based on different assumptions than your own..."Even one is too many."  I disagree, and thus consider that point invalid.
 

I meant only to point out that you were basing a secondary point on what I believe to be a faulty underlying principle.

Quote
I could just as easily flip that around, and accuse you of blithely dismissing the anguish of victims' families, whose suffering you have not spent "a few minutes imagining what it must be like."  But since you don't know what I have or have not imagined, and have no evidence on which to charge me with being "blithe," and I have no such grounds to make similar charges, perhaps such lines of argument are best left alone. 

I apologise for calling your response "blithe".  As for the suffering of the families of crime victims, a close relative of mine was raped and murdered and her murderer put to death. In my case, at least, I draw little satisfaction from it, as the relative is still dead and raped. The price -- innocents put to death -- for that small satisfaction is too high, in my view.

Perd Hapley

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2009, 11:54:47 PM »
I thank you for the apology, and I am sorry for your family.  But allow me to point out that, so far as I can tell, no innocents were put to death in order to execute said murderer.  As others have pointed out, the deaths of innocents are the fault of the process, not of the death penalty itself.  One cannot be un-deaded, but one cannot be given back years of life, nor un-horse-whipped in the public square.  Even a monetary punishment cannot always be fully corrected. 

More importantly, the murderer was not (or should not have been) put to death for your satisfaction, or that of your family.  Revenge has no place in law.  The appropriate motivation is that justice may be served.  Again, I know this will make little headway with you.  I only wish to expose a straw man which is commonly raised by your side of the argument.  One which is libelous, in my view, though not usually intentionally so. 

It sounds as if we both have our minds made up on this issue.  Since we're unlikely to accomplish any real research on an internet forum, we can probably agree to disagree. 
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Beagle

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2009, 12:54:59 AM »
Quote
But allow me to point out that, so far as I can tell, no innocents were put to death in order to execute said murderer.  As others have pointed out, the deaths of innocents are the fault of the process, not of the death penalty itself.
 

Ah, but the two are inextricable. The process cannot be perfect, therefore the process will occasionally result in an incorrect outcome. Incorrect outcomes are the price we pay for allowing the process.

Quote
One cannot be un-deaded, but one cannot be given back years of life, nor un-horse-whipped in the public square.  Even a monetary punishment cannot always be fully corrected.


Taking away a percentage of a life is not equivalent to taking away all of it.

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More importantly, the murderer was not (or should not have been) put to death for your satisfaction, or that of your family.  Revenge has no place in law.  The appropriate motivation is that justice may be served.  Again, I know this will make little headway with you.  I only wish to expose a straw man which is commonly raised by your side of the argument.  One which is libelous, in my view, though not usually intentionally so.

You introduced "the anguish of victims' families" into the discussion. I responded to it. I don't see the strawman.

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It sounds as if we both have our minds made up on this issue.  Since we're unlikely to accomplish any real research on an internet forum, we can probably agree to disagree.


Noooo!!!  :laugh:

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2009, 01:05:42 AM »
Kennedy Brewer of Macon, Mississippi, a mildly retarded, Black defendant, was convicted of raping and killing a 3-year-old girl and sentenced to death in 1992.  In 2002, he was cleared by DNA, but he wasn't released.  He has spent the past 5 years in the local jail, awaiting retrial.  Because you can bet, the local authorities plan to get another conviction and another death sentence.  The Sheriff says he can't look for a DNA match because Mississippi doesn't have a DNA database -- which is news to the state's crime lab director.  The prosecutor will bring back his star witness, dentist Dr. Michael West, whose bite mark testimony has been disproven by DNA in other cases, and who resigned from professional forensic dentistry groups to avoid expulsion.  Prosecutors are so sure they're right about Kennedy's guilt that they're willing to bet his life on it.

UPDATE:  2/9/08 - Kennedy Brewer and Levon Brooks, both convicted of killing 3-year-old girls in Noxubee County, Mississippi, and both cleared by DNA, are slated to be released.  What did it take to reach this point?  Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood had to take the prosecutions of these murders away from the Noxubee County DA, something almost unheard of in the state's history.  The Attorney General has charged Albert Johnson with the murders of both children.



the one guy was cleared by dna 5 years ago  this isn't ancient history  the guys still in jail
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What the hell? This state can be awesome sometimes...firing squad?
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2009, 01:07:26 AM »
A judge in Oklahoma City has dismissed murder charges against Curtis McCarty, who was sentenced to death three times in the 1982 slaying of a teenager -- convictions that were based largely on testimony from a police department chemist who was fired for fraud and misconduct in 2001.  Curtis was prosecuted by Oklahoma County DA Robert H. Macy, who sent 73 people to death row, more than any other prosecutor in the U.S.  Macy has publicly said that he believes executing an innocent person is a sacrifice worth making in order to keep the death penalty in the United States.

a great american
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I