Marines order new batch of M72 LAW

[209]

I remember running a LAW range years ago (obviously when I was still in the military  )  We got to the range and unpacked all of the LAWs.  Then due to a scheduling glitch, no one showed up.  There we were with about 100 live LAWs and 200+ rounds for the LAW training launchers.

The ammo guys came by and said they couldn't (or wouldn't) take the live ones back because of some packaging thing.

So, the 6 of us that were running the range had to shoot all of the live ones.  It was a hardship, let me tell you, but we soldiered on.... 

[seeker_two]

We had some in Panama - heck, back then there were still grease guns floating around. The M79 is also just so much easier to aim and fire, and is more intuitive/instinctive against close massed targets with multiple projectile loads... and it hurts when you try to fire it from your shoulder. I wish they'd come up with a SxS or O/U version of it. Probably wouldn't be that hard, altho it would increase the weight a bit.
 

I agree....as effective as the LAW is, I think an O/U version of the M79 would be a much better choice for a general load-out. Save the LAWs for special missions where "demolition at a distance" would be appropriate...

[Balog]

LAW's and RPG's do not do the same tasks as 40mm rounds. The unit that relieved us had some of the revolving grenade launchers. 6 (I think) round of 40mm on tap. Looked cool, but I've seen no AAR's on how well they work in the field.

I've often thought a slight redesign of the RPG would be a lot better than the current light rocket launchers we field.

[T.O.M.]

God, I love the idea of a o/u M79.  Loaded with cannister rounds, you want to talk about the ultimate weapon for urban warfare.  WOW!  How many buck balls in a 40mm cannister?  Give it to one guy, backed with a handgun, and he's the point man for cleaaring buildings.

[Balog]

God, I love the idea of a o/u M79.  Loaded with cannister rounds, you want to talk about the ultimate weapon for urban warfare.  WOW!  How many buck balls in a 40mm cannister?  Give it to one guy, backed with a handgun, and he's the point man for cleaaring buildings.

Two shots of heavy recoiling, low penetrating rounds in a heavy package, and a handgun.... yeah, that's ideal for houseclearing.  :rolleyes:

[Harold Tuttle]

my new law is a handgun

[Viking]

We had some in Panama - heck, back then there were still grease guns floating around. The M79 is also just so much easier to aim and fire, and is more intuitive/instinctive against close massed targets with multiple projectile loads... and it hurts when you try to fire it from your shoulder. I wish they'd come up with a SxS or O/U version of it. Probably wouldn't be that hard, altho it would increase the weight a bit.
 

I heard that in the event of sudden unpeace, many of the troops mobilized here would be equipped with old M96 and M38 rifles...this was up until the mid-80's .
Heck, IIRC, we still used the Nagant revolvers for some odd stuff up until the mid-80's or somesuch. And we still use the Carl Gustaf M/45 submachine gun...amazing those guns aren't worn out yet...

[Bogie]

Load 'em so you can manage 'em, like flechette rounds, and well, then you have flechette rounds... Yeah, they won't go through walls, but when you want everyone who is standing in front of you absotively, posilutely turned into hamburger, there's nothing better.
 
That's why it's for the point guy.
 
The 79/203, the LAW and the RPG are not really designed for the same targets. But I would figure that a round of M79 HE going off on the roof of a "shanty" structure is going to be slightly disturbing to those within. Plus, with a little practice, they go through windows real nice. And you can load/fire 3-4 of them in the time it takes to deal with one LAW or RPG.
 
Heck... Just got to thinking... A "crowsfoot" type of weapon would be interesting for houseclearing... Those were primarily Navy issue in the 1800s, and featured 4 or more barrels spread out from a central priming chamber. Supposed to be rather effective in convincing large numbers of mutinous swabbies that they need to just shut up and be happy with their hardtack... Make one of those in 20 gauge, with #4 buck, designed for a 4' spread at 5 yards...
 

[T.O.M.]

That was my thought, Bogie.  Anything in front is dead.  No questions.  Handgun on the hip after the two shots are fired, in case the fight happens faster than the reload.  And, you've got a squad of guys with M4's, 12 gauges, etc. for backup.  Kind of like the local SWAT team using a 14" 12 gauge pump fo rthe point man, but a little more certain of the knock down power, with some interesting ammo options.

[Balog]

Have you ever actually done any house clearing? A heavy, awkward, two shot weapon is most emphatically NOT what you want.

[roo_ster]

The original LAW warhead could go through 12" of steel plate, 24" of reinforced concrete or 6' of soil with its shaped charge.

The 40mm HEDP round is good for 2" of steel plate.

The LAW has utility as a bunker-buster that the 40mm grenade can not match.

IOW, there is a reason they are still issued alongside the M203.

[taurusowner]

The AT4 is much much better for tanks, but we don't fight many tanks these days.  I like the law because it's portable and can be used against other hard targets like walls and cars.  Keep an AT4 in the vehicle, but LAW can be carried house to house.

[Bogie]

Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
 
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...
 
You know, we could likely make something based on the 37mm loads...
 
Then we'd have a 37mm vs. 40mm knockdown controversy...
 

[Uncle Bubba]

Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
 

Good guess. I can tell you from personal experience that the business end of a sawn-off double-barreled 12-gauge shotgun looks like twin railroad tunnels when it's being pointed at you from two feet away by someone who's just expressed a willingness to use it. The sight is very persuasive.

[Josh Aston]

Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
 
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...
 
You know, we could likely make something based on the 37mm loads...
 
Then we'd have a 37mm vs. 40mm knockdown controversy...
 

A 12G is a mouse gun compared to a 40mm.  A short barreled SxS 12g is not heavy and awkward.  A double barrel 40mm would be, especially awkward.  A 12G can be swung to anywhere in the room pretty quickly.  If that 40mm isn't already pointed at what I want to shoot, likely I'm shot before I can get it on target.  Going down a hallway it would be fine.  Clearing an actual room, it would suck.  Also, they already make a multi shot 40mm, M32 I believe it's called, 6-shot revolver.  Also, I read a story on MACVSOG where one of the guys stated he'd had a duckfoot type 12G for bunker clearing.  Don't remember how many barrels he said it had.

[mfree]

Hrmm. I wonder how much #4 buck would fit in a shell made for the M32 :)

[Marvin Dao]

Load 'em so you can manage 'em, like flechette rounds, and well, then you have flechette rounds... Yeah, they won't go through walls, but when you want everyone who is standing in front of you absotively, posilutely turned into hamburger, there's nothing better.

That was tried in the Vietnam War era. The flechette version didn't work well at all. Penetration was low when the flechettes struck point first, nonexistent if they hit sideways. That was replaced by a shell that fired 20 rounds of #4 buck in a sabot at ~ 900 fps from an M79 (much less from the M203). It beat out a version that fired 27 rounds of #4 buck with no sabot as the latter round had too much dispersion at even short ranges.

Rather pathetic when compared ye olde 12 gauge which throws double the amount of shot at 30% more velocity with a far better pattern. Not that I'd really expect different. Pressure on a 40 mm round is 3K PSI compared to the 3" 12 gauge's SAAMI ceiling of 11.5K PSI.

[Balog]

Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
 
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...

Yeah, the goal in raiding a house full of terrorists is to scare 'em real good with your big bad gun.  Maybe we should just carry an Ipod with the sound of a pump racking; that makes everyone pee themselves, right? Cause home defense is exactly the same as fighting a war, right? We should let SWAT teams in on this, they can order up some single shot 4 ga punt guns (cut down, of course) and really revolutionize extreme close quarters combat!

Try strapping on 80 pounds of kit, jumping out of a too small door hatch, running a hundred yard wind sprint, hopping a 10 foot wall, unlimber the bolt cutters so everyone doesn't have to get over the hard way, kick in a door, then clear up stairs, around weird corners, in closets, and under beds all with a two shot weapon with really heavy recoil, that most likely won't penetrate a sturdy wall. Or keep imagining and spouting stupid crap, I suppose that'd be an option too.

Look, you've made your disdain for the infantry apparent in any number of threads. I'm sure we're all just idiots compared to you. But whatever you may think of our intelligence, grunts know how to kill people a hell of a lot better than some pogue who served in peace time. I'd say the difference between "did it a couple times a day, every day for seven months against real people who were really trying to kill him" and "daydreamed about it and thinks it'd be cool" is statistically significant, but then I'm just a poor stupid assaultman so what do I know?

[MicroBalrog]

Aren't guys with semi-auto shotguns fed from magazines already part of the process? Or am I missing something?

[seeker_two]

I'm not advocating using the M79 O/U for dynamic-entry room clearing (the 12ga. semi-autos and M-4 subguns are better tools for that.) I advocate the M79 O/U for shoot-HE-through-a-window room clearing, supressive fire on a fixed or slow-moving soft target, and other soft target uses. Leave the 40mm pistols for the Hellboy fans....

Besides, why use 40mm buckshot when you have HE and WP rounds.... 

[Manedwolf]

There are always other possibilities for houseclearing. I like the idea the guy on the left has.



Thing sounds like a freaking chainsaw when firing, but is surprisingly accurate, I'd tried one. (Though I'll guess that's the Chinese version, not the Soviet original, there...) I would imagine it'd mess up all the jihadists in a room without penetrating to the next room where your own guys might be, but it is heavy...

[RevDisk]

Have you ever actually done any house clearing? A heavy, awkward, two shot weapon is most emphatically NOT what you want.

I gotta agree with Balog.  For clearing a structure that is smaller than a football stadium, you want an M4, a shotgun, or preferably an SMG (with lots of grenades).  I wouldn't want to use one for urban combat period unless I had a primary weapon and an M79 tied to my ruck.

[AJ Dual]

All this talk of M79's and M203's was making me remember... Any body know what that crazy rocket/grenade thing developed for the M-16 was?

It looked like a bowling ball with fins. And it hung under the barrel/muzzle on some kind of angled contraption? IIRC it was a flop, but many of the "history of guns" coffee table type books usually have a pic of it because it looks so odd.

[freedom lover]

Aren't guys with semi-auto shotguns fed from magazines already part of the process? Or am I missing something?

Not in the American Military. The only mag fed shotgun they use is the straight-pull xm-26 currently being tested by SF groups. I'm not in the military so I don't know what they use the new Bennelli M1014 for. I would tend the think the only way shotguns are currently being used in indoor CQB is to open doors.

I have some thoughts about the use of the m79/M32 vs the M203. The main uses for both are antipersonnel. The thing is the M79/M32 are on the platoon level and the M203 on the fireteam. I would think it would be better to use 203's in urban combat, as one in 4 men can respond to immediate threats very quickly while still being able to bring his rifle into use quickly. Multiple threats could be taken out at once because each man might see a different one. I would think the M32 or even a China Lake pump would be good for a small squad of Force Recon guys, as it would provide extra firepower.

[MicroBalrog]

Not in the American Military

Yes, I know that they are not in combat use, but there's one in testing, called the AA-12.