Cabelas: Back door voluntary gun registration?

[AZRedhawk44]

I went to Cabela's today... the store in Glendale, AZ. I went to get some titegroup for my reloading bench, but I saw a Marlin 795 sitting in the rack and I've been wanting a new one for awhile to replace my aging, long in the tooth and abused Marlin autoloader.

I had cash in my pocket, I was ready to buy: I whipped out my CCW permit and driver's license, told the clerk I'd take it, and he produced a 4473.

He told me to write my phone number across the top of it. There's no field to do so. ATF is very picky about forms in recent years... those of you not familiar, just look up Red's Trading Post in Idaho as an example.

Anyways, I started writing and then a thought hit me: WHY am I writing this down?

I asked the clerk, and he told me:

Cabelas voluntarily faxes all of their 4473 forms to the FBI.

I told the clerk that I would not be purchasing the gun, I put my money away and my license/permit. I reached out for the 4473 that had my phone number on the top, intending to take it with me. Clerk told me I couldn't have it "because it was a government form." Whatever. I told him I want my phone number off the form, so he tore off the corner that had it and I took that with me.

I took my 2 pounds of powder to the register and paid for it. Came home, did some research.

Here's my thinking: Unless deliberately empowered to do something, Government is prohibited from acting. Since no gun registration is in place and the FBI is certainly not tasked with either tracing firearms or collecting firearms data, it is a violation of their mission to be accepting this information.

Congress specifically empowered the Attorney General (as one of the nation's top federal law enforcement officers and overseer of the FBI and ATF) to obtain access to 4473's only by the means described in USC Title 18, Section 923(g)(1)(A) through (g)(1)(D). None of those methods allow for a federal agency to accept en masse the entire contents of an active FFL's 4473 library.

I've called the store director, Tom Forsyth (623-872-6700), and left a message. I told him I wanted to know:
1. if what this clerk told me was true;
2. the fax number used to send these forms;
3. the location of the FBI office that accepts these forms;
4. the name of the special agent in charge of that division of the FBI.

It is my intention to contact my AZ State Senator and look into adding to Arizona ARS statutes, to prohibit FFL dealers from voluntarily creating a federal agency gun registry.

While it's completely possible that this clerk was a total bone-head and didn't know what he was talking about... I find it very odd that Cabelas wants my phone number in the upper left corner of 4473 forms.

Does anyone else know of FFL's who want this extra info?

Does anyone else know of active FFL's who are sending their 4473's off-site to the ATF or FBI?

Can anyone else confirm this experience at a Cabelas or other large chain FFL?

It is my intent to contact the SAIC of this FBI branch and initiate an FOIA request detailing the earliest dates of 4473 copies, the storage media type on which they are archived (paper or electronic), if they have been integrated into any searchable system, and an approximate count of 4473's currently populating these archives, grouped by FFL license number.

[nico]

you could (should?) have asked to speak to the manager.  It's quite possible that the clerk was talking out his ass.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Gander Mtn also requires the phone number written down... but since they had a Sig 226 CPO for $400, I'll take my chances. 

[AJ Dual]

While it's completely possible that this clerk was a total bone-head and didn't know what he was talking about...

I'd lay at least a $100 on it being this.

They need that phone number for delayed NICS approvals so they can call the customer back to come pick up the firearm. I only really begin to worry about the economy when I get good service at retail establishments and fast-food joints, and the workers start forming complete sentences in answer to my question.

If that complete sentence is in proper syntax, and liberally peppered with tri-syllabic words, I'll buy gold, canned food, and start digging my bunker.

.gov bureaucracy cuts both ways. I doubt the FBI wants anything to do with 4473's unless they were very specifically tasked with taking them. When you follow the path of least resistance i.e. "Bonehead Clerk + FBI wants no extra work" = Occam's Razor, 99.9% of the time, you'll be right.

[MillCreek]

the workers start forming complete sentences in answer to my question.

If that complete sentence is in proper syntax, and liberally peppered with tri-syllabic words, I'll buy gold, canned food, and start digging my bunker.

Geez, the way the economy is in Seattle right now, I might be one of those workers soon.  If I can even find one of those jobs.  So far, they say I am over educated and over qualified for them.  That would not be so bad if there were jobs in my field, which there aren't.

[AJ Dual]

Geez, the way the economy is in Seattle right now, I might be one of those workers soon.  If I can even find one of those jobs.  So far, they say I am over educated and over qualified for them.  That would not be so bad if there were jobs in my field, which there aren't.

If it gets that bad, just lower your resume, pick a bunch of retail establishments that are now defunct. Keep shopping the real one around of course.

Hell, my real resume is like that, there's at least a decade where my employers no longer exist. 

[Doggy Daddy]

Then going by that yardstick and my visit today to Long John Silver's, the economy must be in a giant upswing and the government is handing out free gold on the street corners. 

[mfree]

"I find it very odd that Cabelas wants my phone number in the upper left corner of 4473 forms."

Very odd, since there's actually a field on the new ones specifically for that kind of info.

We get phone numbers and put them in the new "dealer info" field... but it's 100% because we want to be able to contact you if... no, when... a green employee screws up the form somehow and we've got to verify something when we triple-check the form for correctness at the book-out procedure, or worst-case ask you back in to gather a signature or something worse.

Ours is to Murphy-proof. Theirs... dunno.

[Jim147]

What info do you think the FBI can get from your phone number that they can't find with the normal info on the form?

We need a tin foil hat smiley. 

[AZRedhawk44]

What info do you think the FBI can get from your phone number that they can't find with the normal info on the form?

We need a tin foil hat smiley. 

The problem here is that a Cabelas employee said the forms were being faxed to FBI, and the phone number was if FBI needed to contact the applicant.  I'm not concerned that the FBI is able to find me... I'm concerned that the FBI is potentially building a 4473 database consisting of all firearms transactions at Cabelas and other chain retail outlets likely to participate in such a program.

Since 4473's are protected private documents, classified as tax documents, and cannot legally be given to non-priveledged parties without a warrant, the FBI is not authorized to have copies without a warrant.

ATF is not authorized to removed copies from an FFL without a warrant, unless that FFL is going out of business.

No tin foil here... please read the pertinent law regarding 4473's.

If this is true, it's a blatant violation of the law, an abuse of power, and an abuse of the public trust by Cabelas.  "Zumbo-ing" would be a light punishment if it turns out to be true.

I acknowledge it could be one of the world's dumbest gunshop clerks presenting grossly false information.  Hence, my call to the store manager to await clarification.

[bedlamite]

What info do you think the FBI can get from your phone number that they can't find with the normal info on the form?

We need a tin foil hat smiley. 

[stevelyn]

 

I'm concerned that the FBI is potentially building a 4473 database consisting of all firearms transactions at Cabelas and other chain retail outlets likely to participate in such a program.

If they are, the waffen BATFEces is going to have a stroke when they find out the FBI is encroaching on their territory starting an inter-fedpuke turf war. 

I think you can relax. The FBI can't gain anything more from the 4473 that they don't already have when they pull your record up for a NICS check.

My guess is that Cabela's end's up with the same type of stellar employees working the gun counter that Walmart has.

[AZRedhawk44]

If they are, the waffen BATFEces is going to have a stroke when they find out the FBI is encroaching on their territory starting an inter-fedpuke turf war. 

I think you can relax. The FBI can't gain anything more from the 4473 that they don't already have when they pull your record up for a NICS check.

My guess is that Cabela's end's up with the same type of stellar employees working the gun counter that Walmart has.

Un-truthiness.

The 4473 itself has the make/model/SN of the firearm for that particular transaction.  You fill out the first 1.25 pages, and the clerk fills that info in on the second portion of page 2.

If that paperwork is in a fed database, then it is a defacto registration database.

[charby]

I'd lay at least a $100 on it being this.

They need that phone number for delayed NICS approvals so they can call the customer back to come pick up the firearm. I only really begin to worry about the economy when I get good service at retail establishments and fast-food joints, and the workers start forming complete sentences in answer to my question.

Here in Iowa if you have a CCW or Permit to Purchase you get to skip the NICS call and just show your permit, show your drivers license, fill out the 4473, pay for the purchase and out the door you go.

I was going to purchase a rifle at Walmart one time and they said they still had to call NICS even though I showed them my CCW I told the clerk and the manager to go check the laws and I'll purchase the rifle elsewhere with people who understand the laws.

[MillCreek]

I was going to purchase a rifle at Walmart one time and they said they still had to call NICS even though I showed them my CCW I told the clerk and the manager to go check the laws and I'll purchase the rifle elsewhere with people who understand the laws.

I have read about this elsewhere, and this is a corporate practice of Wal-Mart.  The individual stores do not have discretion to deviate from the policy.  Washington has the same laws as Iowa in terms of a current CCW satisfying the background check requirement.  But many, many vendors in Washington still do the NICS call.

[Gewehr98]

My money's on the ill-informed employee pulling the FBI reference out of a bodily orifice.  If the new 4473 has a space for the phone number, it's really a moot point balking at penning the info somewhere on the older forms, which are supposed to be used by the dealers until supplies are exhausted.

If the gun is used in a commission of a crime, the investigating agencies are going to get the phone number, regardless -whether it's on the 4473 or not. The 4473 info and disposition thereof is very specific, especially after they were reminded not too long ago about maintaining a federal database of gun owners.  The gun's at Cabelas?  I don't normally buy guns there, but I'll swing by the nearest one soon, and see what their policy is, or more correctly, how the person behind the counter explains it.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor

[stevelyn]

Un-truthiness.

The 4473 itself has the make/model/SN of the firearm for that particular transaction.  You fill out the first 1.25 pages, and the clerk fills that info in on the second portion of page 2.

If that paperwork is in a fed database, then it is a defacto registration database.

I wasn't thinking of it that way, but since you brought it up, the mere fact they're doing a NICS on you tells them you are buying a gun and in the big scheme of things make/model/SN are really irrelevant details because all they need to know is you bought a gun.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Un-truthiness.

The 4473 itself has the make/model/SN of the firearm for that particular transaction.  You fill out the first 1.25 pages, and the clerk fills that info in on the second portion of page 2.

If that paperwork is in a fed database, then it is a defacto registration database.

The 447s on file at gun shops across the county constitutes a registration database.  However, it was set up specifically to be a distributed, decentralized type of database.  No single entity is supposed to have access to a substantial portion of it.  Nobody is supposed to be able to search it or see the entire thing.

If FBI or anyone else is centralizing the information on all off our 4473s, then that's a major problem.

I wasn't thinking of it that way, but since you brought it up, the mere fact they're doing a NICS on you tells them you are buying a gun and in the big scheme of things make/model/SN are really irrelevant details because all they need to know is you bought a gun.

Supposedly the people on the other end of the NICS phone calls aren't supposed to retain data on who gets checked out.

[Gewehr98]

If FBI or anyone else is centralizing the information on all off our 4473s, then that's a major problem.

Exactly, and they've already had their knuckles thwacked over the practice at least once.

My money's on the phone number being used to notify with regard to delayed NICS checks, or even notifying owners of recovered stolen firearms. 

(Cop finds gun, contacts S&W/Colt/Lorcin, etc, they report which distributor it shipped to, and then on and on to the final FFL.  They dig through his boxes of 4473s in the back room, and voila'!)

[RevDisk]

What info do you think the FBI can get from your phone number that they can't find with the normal info on the form?

You give the FBI too much credit.  Heck, they showed up at my parent's place looking for me because they couldn't find any contact information.  My parents kindly and patiently explained that I was out of the country and had been so for a while. 

Biggest rule of fed.gov IT databases.  Larger it is, less useful any single bit of information is.  The more the databases scale, the harder it is to keep the information accurate.  Best off not keeping huge databases if you can avoid it, and just rely on methodology of finding info.  The FBI's "database on all US citizens" is essentially calling up the phone companies, state DMV or Visa.  Any of which will hand over the information without much bother. 

[AZRedhawk44]

I got a call from one of the general managers at the Cabelas store here in town...  I must confess that I've pulled a brain fart on his name, but it was about 1/2 an hour ago.

He confirmed that it was absolute smoke being blown by one of his staff.  He was very interested in the particular clerk's name, which I also confess to not making a note of in my frustration from the initial encounter.  I'm bad with names. :-)

Cabelas does NOT fax their 4473's to the FBI.  The purpose of the phone number is in the case of errors on the form, or in the event of a 3-day hold order from NICS.  He is going to educate his folks exactly in regards to workflow of 4473's as well as agencies that have lawful access to the forms.

[Gewehr98]

Well, there you go.

Feel better?

[myrockfight]

You know. My paranoid mind got to thinking... 

Do you think it is possible that this clerk is anti-gun and found a hot-button that he/she knows will send a potential purchaser packing in a tizzy without his/her gun? If not every potential purchaser, a good amount of them?


Just a thought. *shrugs

[Balog]

You know. My paranoid mind got to thinking... 

Do you think it is possible that this clerk is anti-gun and found a hot-button that he/she knows will send a potential purchaser packing in a tizzy without his/her gun? If not every potential purchaser, a good amount of them?


Just a thought. *shrugs

So dedicated to being anti-gun, they took a low paying job at a gun shop. Right.....

[Viking]

So dedicated to being anti-gun, they took a low paying job at a gun shop. Right.....

Why not? IIRC, folks from PETA and similar organizations have taken jobs at slaughterhouses to document the conditions the animals go through.