Author Topic: The inevitable result of socialized medicine  (Read 3685 times)

Preacherman

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« on: November 24, 2005, 07:13:09 AM »
I think this is a REALLY important article, and illustrates all too clearly how dangerous socialized medicine can be.  It's basically produced a health care culture where the rights and importance of the individual are trumped by the authority and budget of the State.  Very worrying...  I'm glad I'm not under such a system!


From Brussels Journal (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/504):

Health Care Cuts in Europe

From the desk of Paul Belien on Wed, 2005-11-23 00:08

When conversations turn to health care, I am always reminded of my grandfather. He was 91 when he died. He had never been ill. He had never needed medical treatment in his whole life. Upon reaching his nineties, however, he required prostate surgery.

Like all Belgians, my grandfather had paid wage-related contributions to cover health insurance throughout his entire professional life. The Belgian health care system is a so-called pay-as-you-go system. Todays young and healthy do not set money aside for their own future needs, but are compelled to pay for todays sick and elderly. As my grandfather had never needed much health care, he had been a net contributor to the system. Now was the first time he was going to claim something back.

He had his operation in May. In November he was dead. The prostate operation had gone fine, but afterwards the hospital had given him an antibiotic drug that caused complete deafness. Though there were other, but costlier, drugs available, the hospital gave the old man the cheapest one. They knew about the side-effects, but it did not strike them as an unreasonable and unjust thing to do. Why should it? A man who has already had 90 healthy years of life surely has no right to complain about deafness when some people get more seriously ill or die at a far younger age. When my grandfather left the hospital he was completely deaf. He lost his will to live. Six months later, he was dead.

In many Western European countries, health care is the fastest growing segment of government spending. Over the past forty years there has been a significant increase in health-care spending. According to the latest OECD figures (2003), Western European countries spend between 7.3 and 11.5% of their gross domestic product on health care. Ten years ago it was between 6.9 and 9.9%. In 1960 it was only around 4%.




Source: OECD


Much of the rise in Europes health-care costs is caused by factors beyond government control, such as demographic evolution. Another important cause of rising expenditure, however, is the advancement of better and newer  but more expensive  medical technology.

There are only two ways to keep the present government-run European health-care systems going. One can either drastically increase the financial burden on those at the paying end of the system  the young and healthy of today  or one can drastically limit the quality and the availability of health care for those at the receiving end  the sick and the elderly.

For decades governments increased the financial burden on the working population. When this burden became intolerable, they shifted their policies towards cutting back quality. In Europe there are medical treatments, operations or drugs which are not available to persons above a certain age, or to persons who are considered too sick, or to anyone at all. Political authorities, claiming to be the guardians of solidarity in society, decide who is allowed to get what kind of treatment, operation or drug. Soon euthanasia might be the price the solidarity principle of the welfare state imposes on those people whose health care is costing society the most. Politicians in Belgium and the Netherlands have already granted their citizens a right to die by means of a lethal (and cheap) euthanasia injection. Is this a new freedom that the state, which is constantly restricting every other aspect of our lives, generously bestows on us? Or does it boil down to economic euthanasia, which enables governments to save money by eliminating those that cost the welfare state too much?

Other ways in which many governments in Europe have tried to control health-care spending has been by drawing up negative lists of drugs which doctors are not allowed to prescribe. Drugs are put on the negative list not because they are harmful, but because they are high-quality goods that are deemed too expensive.

For almost a decade now, governments have been stifling medical innovation in Europe. Last month the American drug company Pfizer decided not to build a new plant in Belgium because the Belgian government has been constantly raising taxation on pharmaceuticals. The government wants to reduce pharmaceutical expenditure by limiting drugs. They reckon that by limiting supply, demand will go down. In the same way, European governments discourage young people from becoming doctors, dentists or nurses. Many countries allow only a limited number of people to study for a medical profession, despite the fact that, due to the demographic development and the growing number of elderly, more doctors and nurses will be needed in the future.

Last week young physiotherapists demonstrated in the streets of Brussels. In Belgium physiotherapists, like doctors and dentists, need a licence to be allowed to set up a practice. Without a licence, the services provided by these medical professions are not reimbursed by the sickness fund  and without such reimbursement it is impossible to get any patients. The government has just limited the annual number of physiotherapy licences to 270. As 410 young people completed their (4-year) physiotherapy studies this year, it means that 140 of them will not be able to use their degree, unless they leave Belgium. The minister of Education says this is the fault of the universities: they are required to make the exams more difficult so that only the government prescribed number of  270 students can pass.

As is often the case, many of continental Europes policies are of German origin. In the early 1990s the German government, in a move designed to cut health-care costs, limited  and in some cases completely blocked  access to new drugs and medical technology. Since 1993 the German government has set separate budgets for each segment of the health-care market, with provisions of heavy sanctions if these budgets are exceeded. The 1993 pharmaceutical budget was set at $15 billion  a 9.1% cut from 1992. The government ruled that money spent over the budget would be taken out of doctors incomes. This caused a 25% drop in spending on medicine. Similarly, the sale of the seven largest research-intensive drug manufacturers fell by 16.5%, while the sales of generics (copycat drugs which are cheap because they were developped at least 15 years ago and hence no longer protected by patents) rose by 36%.

While these measures were successful in the field of cost control, they had devastating consequences for the pharmaceutical industry. The German pharmaceutical companies, no longer keen on developing new drugs, saw their world-wide share of drug patents drop to 8% from 16%. Doctors, afraid that they would have to pay the pharmaceutical bills out of their own pockets, started to refer their patients to specialists and hospitals. Patients with minor illnesses, requiring common and cheaper medicines were helped, but the doctors would dump their more serious cases instead of treating them in more costly ways. As a result, in 1993 Germany saw an increase of 10% in hospital patients and 9% in referrals to specialists.

The next year a similar phenomenon occurred at the level of the hospitals. They, too, were assigned budgets that they were not allowed to exceed. Consequently German hospitals, faced with patients who might cost too much, referred them to university clinics, which by law are not allowed to refuse patients. Patients are being turned away, acutely ill patients are wandering from clinic to clinic, and expensive drugs are being withheld from cancer sufferers, the German weekly Der Spiegel wrote in 1994 (April 11). Money is being saved  even if it costs lives to do so. Whenever possible many hospitals are turning away expensive patients covered by the sickness funds. The only good patient is a cheap patient.

Unfortunately, the German system has become the European model. Politicians in neighbouring welfare states, noticing the drop in German health expenditure, started to follow the German example. The only thing that mattered in their eyes was cost control. Many adopted the policy of adding drug volume control to price control and finally to prescription control. France introduced so-called negative recommendations, telling doctors what they are allowed to prescribe and what not. These recommendations have been made compulsory and doctors risk heavy financial penalties if they go against them.

At the root of these decisions is the understandable desire of governments to control health-care costs. But rationing is clearly not the answer. What many governments in Western Europe have overlooked is that there is nothing wrong with a society devoting more of its resources to health care. This even appears to be an indication of prosperity. The higher and the more developed a society becomes, the more its citizens are willing to spend on keeping healthy. Modern technology makes everything cheaper except the highest quality of medical care, which is constantly improving. To try to limit access to this technology in the name of cost-control is irresponsible.

Meanwhile, the larger and more fundamental problem of how to finance the health-care systems is not adressed. Instead of funding the provisions of todays sick with taxes from todays healthy and young, people should be building up reserves for their own future liabilities. What Europe needs is to replace its pay-as-you-go systems by privatized and capitalized health-care systems. This, however, would imply that the governments relinquish control over the system, which is the very last thing they are willing to do.
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griz

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2005, 07:32:20 AM »
The best line I have heard about this is "if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free".

Unfortuneatly the only way the government can make health care universal is to limit the new, expensive, and effective treatments.
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matis

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2005, 07:59:04 AM »
"I'm glad I'm not under such a system!"
_________________________________________

Preacherman, so am I.

But for how much longer, who knows.  The US is moving inexorably in the direction of socialized medicine, isn't it?


That's one of the reasons that I vote for and support Republicans.


Although they honor their principles more in the breach than in actuality, socialism comes more slowly with them in office than with the socialist Democrats.




My aunt died in the early 90's, in Montreal at around 88 years old.

She had been a voluminous reader all her life.  But she developed detached retinas and could no longer read.

I came to visit and accompanied her to the hospital for an exam.

The doctor told her that her problem had not yet "matured" enough to operate on!

When I took him aside to challenge him on this, he was smilingly evasive but indicated indirectly that my suspicion was correct.  They wouldn't spend the $$ on her because of her age.


She lost interest in living, deteriorated rapidly and soon died.

She otherwise quite healthy.


I had offered to bring her to my house in Florida where the surgery she needed cost only a few thousand dollars.

But she had been a life-long socialist and refused to come, on principle.

So she paid the price for her philosophy.



I read that 70% of new drugs come from the United States.

I don't know what percentage of new medical procedures and technology originate here, but I'm sure it's equally high.


Once we get socialised medicine here, where will they come from then?


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Dannyboy

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2005, 08:07:04 AM »
I overheard a techer at school this week telling her student that we'll never have decent healthcare in this country until we get rid of capitalism.  She got 600+ votes in our recent election as the Socialist Party candidate.  I realize this was something of a drift but I had to tell everyone about the moonbat teacher.
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Iain

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2005, 08:56:22 AM »
As I understand it some form of 'socialised healthcare' still exists over there. Which I expect is a great relief to people like me.
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Standing Wolf

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2005, 01:07:03 PM »
Socialist anything is a long step backward from excellence.
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grampster

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2005, 02:38:47 PM »
Well, we already have it.  The prescription drug plan my company offers, and I pay at least half the premium for, has an indexed system of drugs.

Let's say you have a neck problem of some kind.  Painfull and stiff.  The doc thinks a particular  prescription non steroidal anti inflamatory drug would relieve the pain and stiffness.  He may not prescribe that medication, however until he walks you through layers of other cheaper and less effective medications because they MIGHT work on you and have tended to help OTHER people.  In other words, it might be several months of using ineffective meds until you work your way to the original scrip that you doc knew would work on you right away.
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Iain

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2005, 02:46:15 PM »
That's an insurance scheme grampster?
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grampster

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2005, 03:24:41 PM »
Yep.  The idea is that it is supposed to hold down costs.  Bunk!  all it does is hold the sick person hostage to a bureaucrat at the insurance company that had a bright idea to deflect criticism over rising premiums.  Of course one can always pay out of pocket 100% of the cost for the scrip that will work.  That benefits the insurance company as you pay premiums but do not use the benefit.
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Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2005, 05:01:39 PM »
Iain,
See, here in the States, we believe the practice of medicine should not be bureaucratically decided by some Policy Overlord.

What is prescribed, whether medicine, surgical procedures, or anything else, should be decided FIRST by an informed patient, and SECOND, by that patient's DOCTOR.  It places an onus of trust upon the doctor-patient relationship.
If a patient then hits WebMD or some other, "condition-specific" medical site and finds out about something, they can then opt to 1) discuss with current doctor, or 2) seek out a "second opinion".

Do you in the UK have that option?

Grampster, FWIW, I just got a new "Preferred Formulary" list myself.  Ya gotta work your way through lightweight drugs rather than use the really effective stuff, which unnecessarily extends a patient's suffering, in direct conflict to the Hippocratic Oath.

Medicine should not be practiced by bureacratic, policy-wonk bean counters.

jefnvk

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2005, 09:33:21 PM »
Goes back to the age-old question of 'Available to everyone at a bit higher price, or available to no one at a cheap (or free) price'
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telewinz

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2005, 12:02:17 AM »
My brother and his family spent 5 years in Canada, he nothing but good comments to say about their health care system.  Why not  compose a list of the benefits and negatives of EACH system?  I get my health care from the VA, that pretty close to "free" healthcare yet I have no complaints.
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Iain

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2005, 01:51:45 AM »
Felonious -

You always have the option of going private here. People do it a lot. A valid criticism of the NHS is that waiting lists for non urgent operations can be long, a hernia may take a while to get seen to. People stump up the cost then, or some just fall back to a private health insurance scheme they already had.

There is clearly a problem with what the NHS can afford. Recently a woman took the NHS to court over a drug that the NHS only uses in later stage (than she has) breast cancer. She won her case and now Herceptin is available to early stage breast cancers too. Herceptin is expensive. Seems it is the same everywhere.

I'm probably not a good person to ask about doctor-patient trust in the UK. Everywhere around the world people will have trouble with that, but I don't. I credit two specialists at Birmingham Heartlands Hospital with my continued existence, a healthy and productive existence.
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280plus

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2005, 03:52:00 AM »
Quote
FWIW, I just got a new "Preferred Formulary" list myself.  Ya gotta work your way through lightweight drugs rather than use the really effective stuff, which unnecessarily extends a patient's suffering, in direct conflict to the Hippocratic Oath.
I was told by my insurance company that they were going to STOP paying for the expensive drug that worked for years and I had to start at the BOTTOM of the list (again) and work my way back up the tiers. We had already established that the bottom tier drug didn't work but I had to go back to it for 2 weeks. Two weeks of suffering there but the copay was cheaper so I actually might have saved some money myself had it worked but instead was forced to go up to the next tier in two weeks which cost me another copay but NOW it's the higher one. So now I'm not saving money at all (in the long run)Couple that to the fact that the good stuff only required me to take one $6 pill every 3 days or so. I could stretch what was supposed to be a months supply into 3+ months. Now I have to take the middle tier stuff almost every day meaning 3 times as many copays for me and 3 times the number of $5 pills the insurance company has to pay for. What savings have they gotten with this plan?
I have to write them a goddamn letter, that's the only recourse.

Then we could get into what happens to the elderly in THIS country. If you wind up in a nursing home they wipe out your family's fortune in short work and you spend whatever days you have left on welfare in substandard healthcare facilities. That's the reality of being elderly here. It's a shame both here and in Europe how the elderly are treated. And all over "the bottom line".

Take my aunt, in a home. Just barely aware of her surroundings. They "do her hair" every week for $40. Her jewelry was stolen, she insisted she take it there. Her TEETH have been stolen more than once, her glasses, hearing aid. All have disappeared over time and have had to be replaced.

If you get cancer, your treatment is prescribed by what the insurance companies will pay for. You CAN try other treatments but that comes out of YOUR pocket. If your pocket is not so deep, well too bad.

I refer to it more as the Hippocritic oath myself

I don't or can't see WHICH system has any advantages.
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Iain

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2005, 04:47:35 AM »
Should note here that re-reading the article it seems to be about continental Europe. From what I remember of an Economist article there is some difference between how Europe funds its healthcare and how Britain does. Again from what I remember the Economist preferred Britain's model, out of a choice between the two.

I might defend the NHS to some extent, but I'm not a 'socialised' medicine 'True Believer', I have just tried to defend it somewhat against purely doctrinaire assaults. That's not to say that there aren't aspects of a privatised system that I don't approve of, because there are. It seems to me that the inevitable reality in modern wealthy Western countries is that both will exist, and Britain may need to move to achieve a more extensive private sector.
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Waitone

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2005, 12:31:13 PM »
Unfortunately, we are headed to socialized medicine in the good ol' USofA.  The harder the push to participate in globalization the higher the pressure to go socialist in medicine.  Countries we compete against (sic) almost without exception have socialized medicine and socialized retirement programs.  Both are a cost that hits the bottom line of US companies.  

What we create will be socialized but it may be called something else.  What we have now is provided by and large by employers but when they start doing the same crap as you see in Europe please explain to me the diff.  The only solution that works will be to decouple employemnt and insurance.  Companies don't like it because of the tax benefits and gov't dislike the idea because it is a loss of power.  Give us a democrat administration and the move to socialized medicine is on.
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Paddy

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2005, 12:34:56 PM »
The same thing could as easily have happened if the 91 yo grandfather had private insurance.   We most assuredly have bureaucrats and Policy Overlords making healthcare decisions, but they work for insurance companies instead of government.   Insurance companies can be even more rapacious than government healthcare; anything and everything goes to increase the 'bottom line'.  Sure, if your health insurance company denies coverage you can always sue and may very well win.  But that takes time and money and if you're in the middle of a life threatening health problem, you might be dead first.

Until recently, our Medicare system did not pay for prescription drugs.  That benefit would usually be covered under a private Medicare supplemental policy.  Our Medicare system is pretty good, however.  You will rarely, if ever, see an older person denied a high level of medical care.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2005, 01:59:40 PM »
Quote from: Iain
I might defend the NHS to some extent, but I'm not a 'socialised' medicine 'True Believer', I have just tried to defend it somewhat against purely doctrinaire assaults. That's not to say that there aren't aspects of a privatised system that I don't approve of, because there are. It seems to me that the inevitable reality in modern wealthy Western countries is that both will exist, and Britain may need to move to achieve a more extensive private sector.
I want to thank all of us for having taken the High Road in this discussion.

Riley Mc is right; there will always been administrative forces at work, whether they be .gov funded or the private beancounters.  I guess in some ways, they keep us between the lines as we barrel down the highway.

I hope I haven't come across as doctrinarian about privately funded medicine; I think based on the way Iain explained the system in the U.K. (which I am admittedly ignorant of), it doesn't sound bad...IF you always have the option to pursue private care outside the nationalized health system.

I don't want to end up 90 years old and in need of drastic, complicated measures to prolong my waking hours by another six months; I think NO ONE wants that.

I ALSO don't think someone else's tax money should go to prolong my life for that six months, at a cost comparable to the entire lifetime's worth of health care that came previously.  

I guess it's a slippery slope, and there ARE benefits on both sides.  
But who decides?

Our technical ability to perform medical procedures has vastly outpaced our ability to deal with the morality and medical ethics of those same procedures.


Maybe a VERY basic nationalized health care AT MOST, with the option to buy the more exotic procedures, may be where we are headed in the U.S.

Iain

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2005, 02:59:06 PM »
When I say 'doctrinaire' I mean arguments that come purely from the position that the state is always a bad thing. You didn't come across that way.

I had a look the other day at the private website of a woman who has the same condition that I do and lives in the US. Lots of complicated information as to how funding is sought, stuff I didn't understand about co-pays etc. It obviously gets done over there, and I doubt I'd be any worse off.

It isn't perfect, and for some people it really stinks, especially when you are unknown to the system. I've had good experiences, and just recently so has my grandfather, others I know would tell different stories. This appears to be reflected in the several threads that I have read or participated in on either THR or APS.

I expect that in future the NHS will drastically change, possibly it will be a fully comprehensive source of treatment to the chronically sick, the disabled, the newborn and the elderly and will provide basic solid treatment for everyone else that they can extend with private health insurance if they so wish. NHS dentistry has set off down that path already. Fully expect that if this happens taxation will be unaffected.

The inevitability is that there will be rapidly increasing differences in what some people can afford within our respective countries, especially as treatments move on. That's when the arguments over human rights and whatever else begin, and I agree with Felonious, we're not even beginning to have a serious public debate over the ethics involved in that. Arguments about herceptin today - gene therapy tomorrow?
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brimic

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The inevitable result of socialized medicine
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2005, 08:37:07 PM »
I think another aspect that people are overlooking has to do with the quality of doctors. If health care becomes controlled by government, there will be less incentive for bright young people to become doctors. The doctors who work int he system will surely become jaded as they are no longer allowed to do what is best for the patient. I see a future where Americans will fly to places like Costa Rica or Brazil to get decent medical treatment as the best doctors in America become ex-pats, and S. American countries take advantage of our (probable) socialized medicine and promote a medical system to treat those who can afford it from N. America.

If people think that government run health care is a good idea, they surely have never seen government run housing.
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