Author Topic: Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks  (Read 19473 times)

Guest

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2005, 12:52:23 PM »
You didn't offend me at all and I'm enjoying reading the thread.

I'm just not comfortable having the conversation.

Sorry I didn't say that.

Strings

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2005, 02:16:29 PM »
>Hunter Rose, I think we move in many concentric "circles of influence".  You and I obviously share a commitment to RKBA.  I think we sort of touched on a definition of the commonality that some of us share: conservative values, with  honor and service to God, Family, and Country.  If that works for you, great.  If not, heck we can still be friends and work shoulder to shoulder on the things we agree on.<

Reminds me of a story I read somewhere...

 Yankee had moved south, and had a run-in with the Klan. Sherrif ended up called, and said something to the Yankee that I've used as a giude in life: "there are White People, and Black People. Then there's Trash, and N******. Blacks and white never have had a problem getting along"

 Replace race with religious choice, and I think you'll see where I'm comming from.

 Oh... can one of the things we work on be curbing Preacherman's tendancy to be such a punny guy? Wink

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2005, 03:14:01 PM »
Barbara, I think I fixed what you were asking me to...let me know if I'm on the wrong track.  I'm a guy, so I'm really GOOD at being clueless (at least, SWMBO says so).  Glad you're taking it all in, and please tell me if I step on toes.  It's not my intent, where belief systems are concerned!

Fig

Strings

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2005, 04:31:11 PM »
How does the line go again? "A gentleman is one who doesn't insult by accident", or somesuch...


 I think that's the biggest problem right there: simple respect for another's beliefs. Amazing how often it just doesn't exist.

 My paintball pusher is a deacon in his church. Great guy, DEEPLY religious. We sat in his shop one night for several hours after close, discussing the similarities between prayer and magic. No toes stepped on. Once in awhile he'll ask if I've finally  accepted Jesus: I keep telling him "only Mastercard"...

 I kinda feel like many here would be the same way.

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2005, 04:44:19 PM »
I just was rambling through my bookcase and found a book I've had for many years.  I probably read it last in the early 80's.  It's called Wanderings.  Written by Chaim Potok.  It traces Jewish history from Abraham to the present (published 1978)  I think I'm going to settle in over the next few days and read it again so that I can immerse myself in that historical and lyrical tale.  Has anyone else read this book?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2005, 05:46:42 PM »
Nope, but if you recommend it grampster, I think it'd be worth the read.
Gives me a thread idea!
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1925

matis

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2005, 05:18:54 PM »
OK, I'm back and I googled Toward Tradition.


I found the article below written by the founder, Rabbi Daniel Lappin.

I loved the article.

I found my childhood experience depicted.

I even found my "I wasn't there and I didn't do it (kill Christ) and American Christians weren't there (Europe) and didn't do it (kill jews) either argument!

Wow!  What I've groped and stumbled toward -- he's got it all layed out!

And the Rabbi details, with far greater eloquence and erudition than I can muster, how and why the Jewish experience in America is so different from all other countries of the diaspora.  And why American Christians are so different than their European counterparts.


This man gives more than his opinions.  He describes in great detail the "Hebrew connection" in America that is so unique.  He lays it out, chapter and verse, so to speak.     Smiley


And he pulls no punches toward American Jews who persist in their suspicion/hostility toward their Chrisian fellow Americans.  In this he's truly one of the few.

When he's through, it is impossible for liberal Ameriocan Jews to avoid facing the truth that their "enlightened" and "progressive" activism is befouling their own nests (and that of their fellow Christian Americans).

And to the extent that they succeed, they will have killed exactly that which makes America so hospitable to its Jews!




I hope you find this essay as absorbing as I did.


(Fig, I haven't forgotten your "honest questions.")




matis




 This article appeared in the Winter 2004 issue of Jewish Action, the journal of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America.

Living as Jews in Christian America

 June 10, 2005

By Rabbi Daniel Lapin
President, Toward Tradition

As a boy I hungrily absorbed the eye-opening Torah teaching of my father, the late Avraham Chayim Lapin ztzl, along with his terrifying tales of the viciousness of Lithuanian and Polish goyim that he endured while a student at Telshe Yeshiva in pre-World War II Europe.  I quickly came to understand.  Goyim hate Jews and try to hurt them.  That is all there was to it.

Later, as a student at that famed yeshiva located amidst some of the worst slums of northern England, I learned the rough-and-ready science of self defense on the streets of Gateshead.  Lurking in the dark alleys that lay between the Beit Midrash and our lodgings, Gateshead goyim waited eagerly to prey and pounce upon me and my fellow talmidim.  The contrast between those sinister streets full of Tyneside louts with their foul mouths and flying fists and the refined atmosphere of the yeshiva was almost beyond comprehension.  My uncles, the distinguished roshei yeshiva, Reb Leib Gurwitz ztzl and Reb Leib Lapian ztzl, occasionally commented upon the bloody battle scars borne by their students.  Although they would remind us that goyim hate Jews, almost as the fulfillment of ancient prophecies, I think they both would have preferred us to evade trouble rather than confronting it.  I think they also suspected that their nephew derived more than a little unholy glee from inflicting retaliatory punishment upon our tormentors.

During summer trips to France, Switzerland, and other European tourist destinations, I came to experience further evidence that goyim hate Jews and try to hurt us.  And with all my travels, it was not until my late twenties that for the first time I crossed the Atlantic and came to America.

Hoping to see as much as possible of this vast new land during the short visit I had planned, I picked up a full set of United States maps from the now defunct Texaco store in mid-town Manhattan.  Returning to my Brooklyn boarding house, I set the maps out on a large table and began poring over them in eager anticipation of my forthcoming road trip.

Suddenly my eye locked on to the town of Salem in Kentucky.  Wow!  Salem is the Biblical name for Jerusalem.  How weird, I thought, as the ancient words of Genesis echoed in my mind:  And Malchizedek, King of Salem, brought out bread and wine as he prepared to bless Avraham Avinu.  How could the king that Rashi identifies as Shem, the son of Noah, of the city that Unkelos identifies as Jerusalem, come to life in a small southern town.  I was jolted from this reverie as Salem, Massachusetts leaped at me off the page.  Then Salem, Oregon, and then, my goodness, Salem, Illinois, followed by Salem, Indiana, Salem, Arkansas, and then nineteen other Salems!  I was aware of no other Salems in any of the many other countries I had visited in Africa and Europe.  What was going on here?

As if hypnotized, my gaze was drawn to Hebron, Texas, then Hebron, Ohio, followed by nine more Hebrons.  With maps flailing around the table, I quickly homed in on Zion, New Jersey, Zion, South Carolina, and another six Zions.  How about Jericho, I wondered. Well, there just for starters was Jericho, Vermont and Jericho, New York.

The mountain of Moses, Har Nevo, memorialized in Nebo, Louisiana, and Nebo, Missouri along with two or three others.  (Remember that the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet reads as either a b or a v depending on punctuation.)  How about twenty or so Lebanons or New Lebanons, eight Bethlehems, about a dozen Bethels (mouth of God) and a Piel, Washington, (mouth of God).  Rehoboth, Goshen, Canaan, and New Cannan.  There was no end to this!  But you get the idea.  To a recent arrival in New York with the dust of Kennedy airport still on his hat, this was all quite an astounding discovery.  Still, I assumed that everyone else knew of this and so I felt quite ignorant.  Heading out to the nearest shul for a mincha minyan, I eagerly awaited the end of the davening so I could inquire of the rabbi.  I asked him who were the remarkable people who came to this country and could find no better names for their new homes than Biblical place names?  To my astonishment he seemed to be not only unaware but also indifferent.  I tried other synagogues and other rabbis yet few were able to provide a persuasive explanation for why of all countries, America alone had been populated by people seemingly in love with Tanach.

There and then, although it involved several subsequent years as an illegal alien, I resolved not to leave this country until I fully understood who these remarkable people really were.  By the time I came to know and understand them, I no longer wished to leave and here among their children and amidst several million of my brethren I have been ever since.

Let me tell you a little about what I came to learn about those people for in coming to understand the fathers, I came to know the children.  And in knowing the children, todays American Christians, I came to see why America has offered our people the safest, most tranquil, most durable, and most prosperous home we have enjoyed in the past two thousand years.  You will see that we Jews have enjoyed this unprecedented paradise, not in spite of the Biblical values of its founders but precisely because of them.

But before examining the unique peculiarities of American Christians, let us glance at how our sages were already viewing early Christianity.  British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks points out that R. Menahem Ha-Meiri, the fourteenth century Provencal scholar, introduced a new perspective in framing relations between Jews and the wider Christian societies in which they lived.

It has already been stated that these things [laws relating to gentiles] were said concerning periods when there existed nations of idolaters, and they were contaminated in their deeds and tainted in their dispositions . . . but other nations, which are restrained by the ways of religion and which are free from such blemishes of character - on the contrary, they even punish such deeds - are, without doubt, exempt from this prohibition. (Meiri, Bet Habechirah, Avodah Zarah)

He explains that according to Meiri, all mishnaic rules circumscribing business and other transactions with non-Jews are to be understood as referring to pagan or polytheistic cultures, no longer extant, which in addition to being idolatrous were also unprincipled in their dealings with people. That has now changed. The nations amongst whom Jews lived were now "restrained by the ways of religion" and were therefore to be regarded as on a par with the "resident alien" of biblical times, namely as "the pious of the nations of the world."

The introduction to R. Jonathan Eybeschutz's halakhic commentary, Kreti uPleti makes the same assertion about European Christians though their devotion to Tanach and its Jewish interpretation doesnt come close to that of American Christians.

The Christian nations among whom we live, broadly uphold the principles of justice and righteousness, believe in the creation of the world and the existence of God, and in the Law of Moses and the prophets, and oppose the Sadducean view that denies the resurrection of the dead and the immortality of the soul. Therefore it is fitting to be thankful to them, to praise and extol them, and to bring upon them blessings and not, God forbid, curses.

This is a far cry from the way so many American Jews view Christians in spite of the fact that American Christians are even more righteous in the terms of Rabbi Jonathan Eybeschutz.  For instance, in its early pre-Revolutionary-War years, Harvard, a college founded by Puritans who were denied higher education in England, placed a far greater emphasis on the study of the Bible in its original Hebrew than any other university in the world. By 1776 ten universities stood on American soil and they all required study of the Bible in Hebrew.  Puritan minister Increase Mather, a future president of Harvard, was named thus because his parents translated the Hebrew name Yoseif correctly.  His son Cotton Mather later became a founder of Yale.

American Christians do love Jews and Israel and much of their reason lies in the vision of the Founders who saw America as trying to step under the protective umbrella of Gods covenant with ancient Israel.  For instance, Jefferson Adams, Madison and almost all of Americas Founders were indirectly initiated into much of the Oral Torah, the commentaries that British author George Eliot termed the great transmitters.  Their direct sources, especially John Locke, developed their theories of individual rights, property rights, religious toleration, and a federal republic form government based on the biblically derived theories of great 17th century scholars such as British Jurist John Selden and Hugo Grotius along with his Dutch contemporaries who in turn were taught by the Dutch rabbi, Menashe ben Israel, close confidante of the artist, Rembrandt, and friend of Oliver Cromwell.  Grotius, Selden and their contemporaries developed their laws of nations and theories of natural law based on the teaching of Rambam, whom they quote and the oral Torah, including extensive study of the Noachide laws. Their theories focused on the first chapters of Genesis, which they understood as having universal application to all mankind, and they became the philosophical foundation for the creation of America.

To understand this sudden outburst of learning about Judaism and the Hebrew Bible, we have to realize that the 17th century followed the protestant Reformation of the 16th century, which allowed Christians for the first time to read the Bible without the filter of the Catholic Church. Protestants began to search for the true meaning of the words they were reading for the first time, especially in the Old Testament, and turned to Hebrew and eventually the Jewish sages, most prominently Rambam. His influence on the intellectual development of the 17th century, including upon giants like Isaac Newton, is now just beginning to be understood by scholars.

The Reformation and the newly developed yearning for political and religious freedom helped to sculpt the milieu in which the Pilgrims left England in 1608, first for Leyden, Holland where they studied Hebrew and then in 1621 on the Mayflower for what its second governor, William Bradford, called the Plymouth Plantation. Bradford brought to America what is considered by most historians one of the first Hebrew to English translation and commentary on the Chumash and Psalms by the Christian Hebraist, Henry Ainsworth (1612). This voluminous commentary contains extensive quotes and explanations from Rambam (Mishneh Torah and Moreh Nevuchim), Targum Yonatan, R Menachem Recanti, Pirke DRabbi Eliezer, and other leading sages. Through Ainsworth, Americas earliest settlers were exposed to the Noachide laws, the true meaning of an eye for an eye, and many other traditional Jewish interpretations of the Torah.

One of my most treasured possessions is a reproduction of William Bradfords seventeenth century book, History of the Plymouth Plantation.  Bradford, who had come over on the Mayflower, was the second governor of the colony and filled the first twenty or so pages of his manuscript with words and sentences in Biblical Hebrew which he painstakingly translated.  He describes Hebrew as the language in which God spoke to the patriarchs and the language in which Adam named all creatures and explains this as the reason he wanted to study the Lords language.  Thomas Jefferson would later describe Hebrew as the very language of the divine communication.

As Samuel P. Huntington writes, Americans have always been extremely religious and overwhelmingly Christian. The 17th-century settlers founded their communities in America in large part for religious reasons. Eighteenth-century Americans saw their Revolution in religious and largely biblical terms.

Whether by chance or Providence, America was founded at the optimum time in European intellectual history.  After Locke, European intellectuals de-Christianized and de-Judaized their political ideas. They abandoned the biblically based foundation of human rights and political liberty for the Godless theories of the Enlightenment, some of which were based on ideas from secular Jews such as Spinoza. This diversion helps explain explains why Europes political development was so differently from Americas and why America has been such a special place for Jews and Christians.

When New York University was established early in the 19th century, one of the first professors hired was a Protestant clergyman as the professor of Hebrew.  His name, as Professor Shalom Goldman reminds us, was George Bush, an ancestor of President George W. Bush.

As recently as 1982, a joint resolution passed by the 97th Congress of the United States declared:

Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;

Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;

Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States;

Whereas many of our great national leaders - among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, Wilson, and Truman - paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country's development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is "the rock on which our Republic rests.

I found it hard to deny.  Americas culture is Biblical, an amalgam of Jewish and Christian values, and so is our government. This may sound strange. We are told that the genius of our constitutional government lies precisely in the fact that it separates church from state. That of course is a distortion of the historical reality. Permit me to dispel the myth that sees nothing Biblical in the form of American government.

The historian Robert Bellah wrote that "The Bible was the one book that literate Americans in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries could be expected to know well. Biblical imagery provided the basic framework for imaginative thought in America up until quite recent times; and unconsciously, its control is still formidable." Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University , went farther. He called our country "God's American Israel."  One of his closest friends was Rabbi Chayim Yitzchak Carigal who was born in Hebron, Palestine in 1733.  In many ways the Founders of American democracy looked for inspiration to the Torah.

I find evidence of this in the chapters in Deuteronomy that prescribe the form of  government which God ordained for Bnai Yisrael. The first sentence of the Torah portion of Shoftim, explains how government officials are to be appointed: "Judges and officers shall you appoint in your gates&"  The words translated "your gates" (sh'arechah) are explained by Jewish tradition to mean that these officials are to be appointed on a city-by-city basis.

In other words, what the Torah is prescribing is federalism, a system of emphatically local government where officers are drawn from the local populace, not from a far-away capitol. Their perspective will then be local, not national. City customs and manners will be observed and respected, rather than being trampled upon by bureaucrats who think they know better.

Another fascinating indication of how government is to be organized may be found elsewhere in Tanach, in Isaiah's prophecies: "For the Lord is our Judge; the Lord is our Lawgiver; the Lord is our King&"  Here, I think it's clear to see, is the tripartite system of administration found in the Constitution, with its judicial, legislative, and executive branches.  It is also fascinating that the names referring to God in the Declaration of Independence are not names specific to Christianity such as son, savior, or holy spirit, but names drawn from the Hebrew Bible  Creator, Lawgiver, Judge, and Providence.

In a later Deuteronomy chapter, we find the laws pertaining to the chief executive officer of the government in Israel 's case, a king. In America our CEO is called the president, but one notes many striking parallels. In choosing our leader, the very first criterion the Torah sets out is that he is to be native-born: "from among your brethren shall you set a king over yourself; you cannot place over yourself a foreign man, who is not your brother".

Other nations have experimented with foreign-born rulers, and have seen for themselves the catastrophes this can bring. Germany had Hitler, an Austrian. Russia had Stalin, a Georgian. France had Napoleon, a Corsican. The man appointed to rule a country of which is not a native lacks the feeling of brotherhood with its citizens that would restrain the hand and the will of a leader who is native-born. The foreigner takes chances with his adopted country in pursuit of his own glory, or his own twisted ideals.

God knows this and directed Israel to choose wisely. America 's Founders knew it too, and ordained that the American president should be native-born.

Some will argue that the king of Israel could not possibly have provided inspiration to the Founders. After all, not only is there no church-state separation in the form of government described in the Torah: the church, so to speak, is the state.

And yet it's more complicated than that, for Torah-based government does provide a kind of parallel to our Constitution's prohibition of a state church. While the king is clearly a religious leader - after all, he carries a scroll of the Torah with him at all times (see Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim 3:1) - this monarch is expressly not meant to be a priest, a cohen. The priesthood is drawn from the tribe of Levi, while the king comes from the tribe of Judah. This is a significant division of responsibility and one that was explored in Seldens final but uncompleted work on the Sanhedrin as a model for the coordination, and separation of the three great types of laws governing mankind that Locke would later summarize as: the divine law, the civil law, and the law of opinion and reputation.

We have here not any crude "separation" of religious and secular authority, as First Amendment extremists call for today. Rather, God sets up an exquisite tension, a unique balance.

The authority of the king is not priestly, but it is informed by religious precept, symbolized by the Torah scroll the monarch carries. So too, again, with our own American Republic, where the president's authority is separate from that of any particular church, but where the government as a whole is meant to imbued, uplifted, and inspired by the values of faith and tradition.

It gradually became clear to me why early Americans named their towns and villages after the places in which our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob dwelled.  It also became clear to me that their descendants retained complete conviction in the verse from GenesisI will bless those that bless you and those that curse you shall I curse.  For them, it provided the reason that God had so obviously blessed the United States of America and would continue to bless this land so long as its citizens continued to bless the descendants of Abraham.

In February of 2004 I was privileged to call together a private meeting of twenty Evangelical Christian leaders in Washington DC at the request of a top Israeli government official who wished to meet with them.  I am not at liberty to disclose the purpose of the meeting but I can tell you that the Israeli government representative whose name you would immediately recognize was as profoundly moved as was I by some statements made by several of the Christian leaders present.  These men, whose televised messages are carried each day into upwards of twenty million American homes, told of how their mothers had made them listen to the radio as Israel came into existence in 1948, or for the younger ones how their mothers relayed the same message in front of the television in 1967.  Their mothers carefully explained to them that this was the moment of God keeping His promise to the Chosen People. They pointed to this transmission from their mothers as the source of their love for Israel and the Jewish people, not speculative theories of the end times that they would only learn of as adults.

Which brings us to our neighbors and friends in America today, the Evangelical Right.  Do they want to convert us to Christianity?  Of course they would like to do so.  However what a blessed time we live in when Christians want to convert us with words rather than with guns and knives.  We live in a time and place where constitutional guarantees assure us that only words will be used, but we should remember that these guarantees were all derived from the Word of God.

It is useful to realize that throughout our history, when we have been given the choice of renouncing our faith or being murdered, we Jews have nearly always chosen death.  If forced to choose we have always preferred a soul without a body to a body without a soul.  American Christians do not threaten our bodies and while it is true that their teachings can threaten our souls, the enemy in this case is not Christianity but Jewish ignorance.  When a disease invades a countrys borders, the first step is not trying to destroy the disease (especially if that is not possible) but it is inoculating the population.  However we can never force people to get inoculated, can we?  Most of our communities do have rabbinic resources to inoculate our spiritually vulnerable young people.  We cant force parents to use these resources but perhaps our Jewish federations and other organizations can help advertise the existence of these inoculating resources.

Regardless of how distressing it is to see alienated Jews abandoning our faith, I am convinced that attempting to silence, reprove, or condemn Christians in an effort to prevent Jews converting to Christianity is not a really effective approach.  One problem is that it causes resentment without accomplishing very much.  You see, some Christians regard Evangelism to be the greatest act of religious fervor.  It is unlikely that Jewish opposition will discourage them.  Our noisy opposition often comes across as futile blustering and bullying.  After all, they too have a long tradition of sacrificing for their faith and wont cease on our account.  However we will risk squandering a special friendship that may be Gods gift to us during perilous times.

Many Christians are as aware as we are that we are losing far more Jews to Scientology, to Hindu-related faiths, and to just plain secular hedonism than we are to Christianity.  They wonder, with some justification, why as a community, we are not protesting Scientologys outreach, Krishna outreach efforts, and the seduction of secularism as ardently as we seem to protest Christian outreach.  They sense that we Jews harbor a special and unique antagonism toward Christianity.  While we undoubtedly retain an institutional memory of many years of Christian persecution, most American Christians are Protestants, not Catholics, and I have not been able to locate a single verifiable account of any Protestant pogroms.  Martin Luther may not have had warm feelings toward us, but neither he nor his followers seem to have acted upon those feelings in any way that harmed Jews or their property.  In the same way that we object to being blamed for the death of Jesus, American Protestants object to being blamed for the suffering of Jews in Europe.  After all, they point out, not a single American Jew has ever been murdered, mugged, robbed or raped by Christians on their way home from church on Sunday morning.

I have spent well over a quarter of a century of my life deeply committed to teaching Judaism to Jews brought up in ignorance about their religion.  When Jewish Americans know the name of Jesus mother but not that of Moses mother; when they know more of Khalil Gibran than they do of the Kuzari, when they cannot understand or even read the Bible in its original Hebrew; when they find more warmth in the Christian community than in the Jewish one, then it is a Jewishnot a Christianproblem. Christian leaders, among them, Reverend Jerry Falwell, have told me that Evangelistic efforts are not effective among practicing religious and Torah educated Jews.

But many Jews of our generation have never been exposed to authentic Judaism.  They arent rebellious, they are simply ignorant.  It is true that they are tragically vulnerable to spiritual seduction.  To my dismay, a heartbreaking occurrence often takes place in one form or another after I speak to Christian audiences; a lovely sincere member of the audience comes up after my speech to tell me that she was raised in a non observant Jewish home.  At some time she felt an emptiness and attempted to attend synagogue, often even meeting with the local rabbi, usually a rabbi from the Reform movement which is overwhelmingly politically liberal and opposed to traditional Jewish law.

Instead of receiving spiritual guidance on drawing closer to a loving God and advice on how to enhance her life by Living Jewish, she was told how Judaism today was expressed by social action, by changing the world.  Her Jewish soul was still parched and what is more, she wasnt convinced that the liberal social causes she was urged to advocate were right.  The rabbi seemed willing to cut out parts of the Torah that disagreed with the politically correct social conscience of the day, so it didnt seem that he even took his religion seriously.  Totally unaware that this rabbi didnt represent an authentic connection with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, she kept up her search for meaning and eventually found it in Christianity, still in total ignorance of her own faith.  Many times have I been grateful that my presence provided a last ditch opportunity for such a person to reexamine Judaism.

Not only is it wrong to blame Christians for such conversions, it is not effective.  When Europe blamed the Jews for the Black Death and went on a murderous rampage, they not only committed a great evil, but they also failed to find the real cause.  Having a scapegoat may have kept them from discovering the real cause of the plague sooner.  When Jews blame Christians for their childrens conversions, they are finding a scapegoatalbeit without the shedding of bloodand they are not dealing with the real cause, an abysmal ignorance of Judaism and a disinclination to recognize Judaism as a God-centered religion instead of a Woody Allen fan club.  The loss will be stemmed not by attacking Christians but by teaching authentic Judaism to Jews.

If we Jews were ever to find a sword at our throats or a .357 Magnum at our foreheads and an ultimatum to convert to Christianity, as has happened in other places and at other times, I would agree that we have a problem.  But if American law, which prohibits people from pointing weapons at one another, were to be abrogated sufficiently to allow forced conversions to Christianity, then I can assure you that American Jews, like other Americans, will have bigger problems than religious freedom.  On occasion a sincere Christian, wanting to share something he considers to be of inestimable value has invited my children to contemplate a relationship with Jesus.  My son and my daughters respond politely and respectfully while firmly declining.  Their faith was not threatened for a moment.  This is because my wife and I made it an absolute priority to introduce our children to God from their earliest years.  Each evening we helped them say and understand the pre-Shema prayer, With an abundant love you love us Oh Lord our God.  Sadly, many Jews would immediately suspect this to be a Christian prayer, just as some would become indignant at a public reading of another prayer they assume to be Christian, The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.

Our problem is that we have failed to mass market the only ultimately compelling reasons for being Jewish: an infatuation with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a love affair with the searing truth of Torah, the revelation of the totality of all existence.  By comparison with the clinical coldness of what passes for Judaism in Americas Jewish Community Centers, Christianity, to many, seems to hold a monopoly on spiritual warmth.  Trying to silence Christians, for whom Evangelical activism is as central tenet of faith as circumcision is to us, is hardly the answer.

I do think it is important to observe that Judaism and Christianity are two completely separate and incompatible faiths.  However we are blessed to live in a country whose Christians do not hate us.  Instead, they wish to learn from us and bring greater spiritual authenticity into their own lives.  There is no way this can hurt us.  The number of churches that hold Passover Seders grows exponentially each year.  The number of Christian booksellers that carry in stock books from Artscroll and other Jewish publishers grows each year.  What a perfect time to project simultaneous friendship toward our Christian fellow citizens and warm embrace to our alienated Jewish brethren.

Finally, I think we can gain from recognizing that for this blessed little moment of history, we American Jews are living in a splendidly sunny Diaspora.  Anyone who thinks that todays American Protestants are indistinguishable from the goyim of Europe is simply ignorant of what life in the streets of European cities is really like.  It is also perhaps a shocking example of showing no Hakarat HaTovgratitudefor Gods providence in providing us with friends at a time when we have precious few.

It would surely be astonishingly arrogant to suppose that our small nation should repay good with evil by shunning the hand of friendship extended by American Christians who ask nothing in return.  One hundred million Moslems around the world hold little affection for us.  Here in America, added to large Muslim immigration, there are many, particularly in our prisons, who are adopting Islam as their faith.

Candor, necessary in times of peril, compels us to admit that the dream of black-Jewish friendship is no more than a fantasy.  Only among those who cherish Jewish-Christian friendship based, not on a common theology, but on a shared vision of Americas Biblical blueprint, does one find genuine friendship between African Americans and Jews.   Otherwise, elsewhere in America, as Time Magazine polls repeatedly reveal, large pockets of virulent anti-Semitism exist in the black community.  The increasingly secular left wing of the Democratic Party and the academic world of the university campus can barely conceal their contempt for Israel and for the religious values so central to our existence.  Not a lot of people like us.  So now, some in our community actually believe that we ought to go out of our way to reject the friendship of perhaps the only large demographic in America that loves us?  Doing so would totally refute all myths of Jewish intelligence.  It would also be profoundly immoral.

After WW I the communists condemned the great twentieth century Jewish leader Rabbi Yechezkel Abramsky to a life sentence in the Soviet Gulag.  High level diplomatic efforts conducted in great secrecy by the British Government on behalf of Anglo Jewry secured his release in 1933.  The Russians immediately expelled him to London, where he became a dayan of the London Beit Din, which is to say, a justice on the supreme Jewish court of the British Empire.

            Much later, I attended a public discussion on the Holocaust at which Rabbi Abramsky refuted the notion that anti-Semitism was somehow endemic to Germans.  A member of the audience, agreeing, suggested the Holocaust could really have happened anywhere.  But he then remembered Rabbi Abramsky's debt of gratitude to the British Government and with sensitivity to the Jewish principle of gratitude, he added, excepting England, of course.  And Rabbi Abramsky looked very sadly at the speaker and he said "No, even in England."  Before the stunned London audience could recover, Rabbi Abramsky continued "but probably not in America."

Years later, learning at Kol Torah, I often visited with Rabbi Abramsky at his Jerusalem home to where he had retired.  More than once I referred back to the London lecture.  And I asked him "Why not in America?"  He would only smile at me and repeat "No, no, not in America.  No, not in America."

I am not saying that things will forever be good.  We are in the Galut, even in America.  However there is no mitzvah in accelerating bad times.  Lets not behave in the foolish ways prohibited by our sages, that, God forbid, could turn friends into enemies and undo Rabbi Abramskys optimistic prophecy.

 The End

  [Click here to download .pdf version of the above article]

Radio talk show and television program host, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is president of Toward Traditionthe American Alliance of Jews and Christiansa Seattle-based, bridge-building organization providing a voice for all Americans who defend the Judeo-Christian values vital for our nations survival.

For more information or to schedule an interview, please contact: Rachael Whaley (206) 236-3046  www.towardtradition.org

______________________________________



I am very curious to hear your reactions to the Rabbi's essay.




matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2005, 07:12:40 PM »
matis,

It's very late and I was shutting down for the night as I checked APS one last time, only to find you had posted this.
I will post more commentary tomorrow, but for now, suffice it to say that I am very moved that Rabbi Lapin has spoken exactly what I have tried so hard to say, and I've already bookmarked the Toward Tradition website.

More later,
Fig

One of Many

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2005, 06:15:59 AM »
Rabbi Lapin admits that Judaism and christianity are incompatible.  That is because Judaism rejects the Deity of Jesus the Christ.  Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ.  Christians teach that one should love another as himself, and try to bring others to Christ; that does not include killing those who reject Christ.  Anyone who advocates killing those that reject Christ is not practicing the law of God.

Christianity, as taught in the New Testament (and not as perverted by some men), is a religion of sanctity; Christ teaches to sanctify (separate) oneself from sinful thoughts and actions, yet not to remove oneself from the general society.  Christianity does not teach tolerance of sin, nor does it teach peace with sin.  On the contrary, it teaches that those who strive to please Christ will be persecuted by non-believers; Christians are taught to turn the other cheek when persecuted, not to go on Crusades and to physically destroy the societies and families of the opposition.

Contrast that with the teachings of the muslim religion, which was derived from Judeo-Christian principles.  Muslims reject the Divinity of Christ (regard Christ as JUST a Prophet), and hold to the Old-Testament principle of physical destruction of the enemies of God (Infidels).  While many proclaim the Muslim religion to be a religion of peace, it historically is shown to be a violent and destructive religion of warfare against those who do not accept it completely.  That is similar to the early history of the nation of Israel after the return from Egyptian bondage.

There is a distinction between the Israelites and the Muslims; the Israelites quit conquering other nations by warfare after they occupied the promised lands.

The modern nation of Israel has no connection to the biblical nation of Israel; the geneologies of the Israelites were destroyed during the first century, and all of the people were dispersed after Rome destroyed Jerusalem.  The modern Jew has no provable connection to Abraham and Moses; there is only tradition and a belief that they are descended from the blood line that produced the Christ, the Messiah, the promised seed of Abraham.  There are no Levitical Priests today, because that required geneology is broken; therefore there are no true worshippers under the Law of Moses today.  The annual atonement by the High Priest (required by the Law of Moses) in the Temple of God, has not been performed for centuries. The religion that required the sacrifice on altars of huge numbers of bulls and goats and sheep, which produced rivers of blood, is not practiced today.

Christ removed the necessity of animal sacrifices, since He shed his own sinless blood to pay the price for the sins of all of mankind, each and every sinner; those that believe in Christ and strive to obey Him are covered by that blood, eliminating the obligation to continue sacrificing animals for temporary atonement of sins, as was practiced under the Law of Moses.

Those who, before Christ, were not of the Israelite nation, had a law unto themselves, given by God.  There is mention of this in the bible; there is also instruction to Christians, to go to all the world, teaching that salvation is only through Christ.  The old laws given by God were replaced by the Law of Christ, when Christ ascended into Heaven to set on the throne of God.  Christians will not force others to accept Christ; it is an invitation from God, not a mandate.

Violence is not an approved method for spreading the word of God; those who practice teaching by the sword, delude themselves.  This does not preclude self-defense against criminal attack, or defense of country in time of war; these instances are not for the purpose of spreading religious doctrine to non-believers.  A true Christian will not commit violence in the name of Christ; they will be persecuted (possibly violently) by others because of the message they promote in an un-godly world.

Jews and Muslims by defintion are not Christians, since they reject the Diety of Christ; they do not adhere to the Christian principle of non-violent dissemination of doctrine.  That we in the US have not had severe outbreaks of violence connected to religious belief, is due to the minority status of those who advocate violence, and the strength of the Rule of Law.  In those areas of the world where Christianity is the minority, we see religious violence as a routine aspect of life.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2005, 08:06:07 AM »
One of Many,
I have stated earlier, and I will ask again before resorting to involving admins/moderators:
This is not the place to start a 'my deity's better than yours' pissing contest.

As a Christian, I find in particular these statements either totally incorrect, inflammatory, or both:

"Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ."

...In my Bible, Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.  Not sure what you're reading, but you are entitled to your belief.

"The modern nation of Israel has no connection to the biblical nation of Israel; the geneologies of the Israelites were destroyed during the first century, and all of the people were dispersed after Rome destroyed Jerusalem.  The modern Jew has no provable connection to Abraham and Moses"

At the core of this is that you totally miss the point of this thread.  If you want to cross swords with other faiths and win a debate over who knows the most systematic theology of their respective beliefs, I'm asking that you find another forum, or start another thread with a title like "Let's debate whose deity is best".

The point of THIS thread is that there ARE things (RKBA, love of God, Family, and Country) that we can work mutually to promote without having to convert one another or disrespect each other's religious beliefs.

If you think anybody wants to continue to debate with you, why not putting out an email address so you continue off the forum?

Thanks for understanding.
Fig

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2005, 02:31:35 PM »
Rabbi Lapin's moving opinion is well received by me.  His words very well describe my feelings about the relationship between Jews and Christians.  The one thing that I have noticed in reading about Jewish history is the fact that in America there has never been a pogrom at the level that history teaches us about that has occured, well, virtually everywhere else in the world.  That is not to say that we do not have bigots among us.  

An opinion that I have held for many years has to do with the fact that the Jews have done in America something that has not happened anywhere else throughout the diaspora:  Assimilated.  The reason that that has happened is because assimilation has never been threatening here in America as it has elsewhere.  One thing is clear.  Throughout the diaspora, Jews have remained clannish and have been persecuted.  Jews are still clannish (I do not mean this in a bad way at all) in America, as are other groups.  But at the same time have blended into the community.  It is because as the Reb more aptly than I can explain.  No?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

One of Many

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2005, 04:05:01 PM »
Felonius;

Quote from: Felonious Fig
One of Many,
I have stated earlier, and I will ask again before resorting to involving admins/moderators:
...

As a Christian, I find in particular these statements either totally incorrect, inflammatory, or both:

"Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ."

...In my Bible, Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.  Not sure what you're reading, but you are entitled to your belief.

...

If you think anybody wants to continue to debate with you, why not putting out an email address so you continue off the forum?

Thanks for understanding.
Fig
I was not aware that I was debating anyone.  My comments were not addressed to anyone in particular, but were intended to provide a point of view that seems to be misunderstood or ignored by most people that CLAIM to be Christians.  That you have taken them personally, and THREATENED me with action by admins/moderators, followed by accusing me of making inaccurate and inflammatory statements regarding subject matter that a Christian should be familiar with, just shows your lack of understanding of what being a Christian involves.

For your edification, since you challenged my statement regarding the Law of Moses being obsolete.

NASB
Heb 8:13  When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I do not intend to get into a verse by verse debate with you or anyone else about what your personal beliefs are.  I do not have any problems working with non-Christians, or associating with non-Christians for recreational purposes.  I do not go around looking for people to ambush on matters of religion, but when I observe an ongoing discussion pertaining to religious beliefs in an open forum, I expect to be allowed to share my point of view.  Since this entire board is intended to be available for non-gun related discussions by people that share an interest in firearms and the shooting sports, why is my post subject to threat of administrative action?

Nothing in my previous posts was intended to disrespect anyone or their personal religious belief.  I pointed out what is a common misconception regarding the use of the lable "Christian", when in fact the actions and beliefs being associated with that name are inconsistent with the teachings contained within the Bible.  Any true Christian is obligated to do the same.  Since much of the previous posting concerned modern Judaism, I pointed out the difference between biblical and modern Judaism; the fact remains that both reject the basic premise of Christianity, that is the Diety of Christ.  That does not preclude me or anyone else from associating with someone of differing faith, and giving them the respect due to anyone acting in an honorable manner.

You say that I missed the point of this thread; that it is about the willingness to work together to promote matters of mutual interests.  If you will look at the messages that were posted, they discussed how people of different religious beliefs were able to set aside their religious differences to get along without discord and dissention in a secular situation.  I do not believe my attempts to clarify common misconceptions concerning the misuse of the "Christian" identifier, when associated with other beliefs, is outside the scope of this thread, for the accurate identification of a belief should be a mutual interest.  If you go hunting, you need to know the difference between a Jackass and a Muledeer; if you discuss religion, you need to accurately identify the pertinent belief system.

Since you do not seem to be interested in views that differ from your own, I will abstain from further postings on this thread.

Antibubba

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,836
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2005, 04:15:23 PM »
Matis,

   That article gives me a lot to think about-about prejudice, and about Orthodox Judaism.  Can you recommend more readings from Rabbi Lappin?
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

matis

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2005, 04:31:32 PM »
Antibuba,

I copied this from his     .www.towardtradition.org   website.

I haven't read any, but am considering Buried Treasure and America's Real War

Hope this helps.


matis


   

Our books make great gifts! Use the links below to obtain books by  Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Michael Medved or David Klinghoffer for your suggested donation.
   

Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money

Nearly everyone is in business, most without even knowing it! Rabbi Daniel Lapin outlines the most effective ways to make and manage money for yourself and for others. His no-nonsense attitude toward the ethical and philosophical approaches to making money is a refreshing read in a time of economic insecurity.

$25 donation - Hardback
   
$17 donation - Paperback    

 
   

Buried Treasure

For millennia, the Hebrew language has housed hidden treasure. Here Rabbi Daniel Lapin translates this ancient, holy tongue into startling contemporary wisdom that God intended for our guidance and enrichment.

$20 donation - Hardback
   

 
   

America's Real War

There is a tug of war going on for the future of America. At one end of the rope are those who think America is a secular nation; at the other end are those who believe religion is at the root of our country's foundation. In this hardcover release of the thought-provoking America's Real War, renowned leader and speaker Rabbi Daniel Lapin encourages America to re-embrace the Judeo-Christian values on which our nation was founded, and logically demonstrates why those values are crucial to America's strength in the new millennium.  

$20 donation - Hardback
   
$13 donation - Paperback    

 

 
   

The Lord Will Gather Me In

Why would a comfortably affluent, well-educated, secular Jew seek out the rigorous discipline of traditional Jewish observance? This is the intriguing question behind not just David Klinghoffer's personal story, but the growing movement of Jewish ba'alei teshuvah. In recent decades, tens of thousands of young Jews have returned to Orthodox Judaism, responding in a startling way to the spiritual hunger felt by millions of Americans. They have found that Orthodoxy means not withdrawing from the world, but coming to feel God's presence in every facet of life. Klinghoffer, one of these newly traditional Jews, also happens to be a highly articulate, sensitive, and sympathetic writer who states his beliefs so reasonably that readers will be hard-pressed to explain why everyone isn't Orthodox.
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2005, 05:22:35 PM »
Quote from: One of Many
my attempts to clarify common misconceptions concerning the misuse of the "Christian" identifier, when associated with other beliefs, is outside the scope of this thread, for the accurate identification of a belief should be a mutual interest.
Since you do not seem to be interested in views that differ from your own, I will abstain from further postings on this thread.
No threats, just attempting to avoid digressing into hair-splitting scripture-quoting "mine is bigger than yours" behavior, which I have seen happen too many times to count.
 
I consider this an important discussion, and I don't think it's up to me to define anybody's beliefs beyond my own.  For the purposes of this thread, I think that applies to all of us.
Thanks for tolerating my shortcomings.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2005, 05:53:02 PM »
matis--  Rabbi Lapin gives good preliminary information, of "setting the scene" of the experiences which formed the foundation of perspectives, and then shows how attitudes on both sides began to change, with the founding of a new land.

"American Christians do love Jews and Israel and much of their reason lies in the vision of the Founders who saw America as trying to step under the protective umbrella of Gods covenant with ancient Israel."  

...Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.

"Whether by chance or Providence, America was founded at the optimum time in European intellectual history. After Locke, European intellectuals de-Christianized and de-Judaized their political ideas. They abandoned the biblically based foundation of human rights and political liberty for the Godless theories of the Enlightenment, some of which were based on ideas from secular Jews such as Spinoza. This diversion helps explain explains why Europes political development was so differently from Americas and why America has been such a special place for Jews and Christians."

...one thing we haven't mentioned is the way that these very benefits are being threatened, and why it is CRITICAL for us to find common ground and work to protect them.

"It gradually became clear to me why early Americans named their towns and villages after the places in which our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob dwelled. It also became clear to me that their descendants retained complete conviction in the verse from GenesisI will bless those that bless you and those that curse you shall I curse. For them, it provided the reason that God had so obviously blessed the United States of America and would continue to bless this land so long as its citizens continued to bless the descendants of Abraham."

"Which brings us to our neighbors and friends in America today, the Evangelical Right. Do they want to convert us to Christianity? Of course they would like to do so. However what a blessed time we live in when Christians want to convert us with words rather than with guns and knives. We live in a time and place where constitutional guarantees assure us that only words will be used, but we should remember that these guarantees were all derived from the Word of God."

...I have to laugh at how well he knows us!  My comments in the early parts of this thread were sort of "out there".  Sure, we'd convert you if we could!  But short of that, if we don't dismiss each other out of hand, there may be great and strong friendships to be forged.

"You see, some Christians regard Evangelism to be the greatest act of religious fervor. It is unlikely that Jewish opposition will discourage them. Our noisy opposition often comes across as futile blustering and bullying. After all, they too have a long tradition of sacrificing for their faith and wont cease on our account. However we will risk squandering a special friendship that may be Gods gift to us during perilous times."

...careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

"Christian leaders, among them, Reverend Jerry Falwell, have told me that Evangelistic efforts are not effective among practicing religious and Torah educated Jews."

...which speaks volumes for those that DO remain in the faith. As for those who HAVEN'T,...

"They arent rebellious, they are simply ignorant. It is true that they are tragically vulnerable to spiritual seduction."
...I find this to be true of Christian kids, as well.  Many are not well grounded in their faith, and so when presented with impressive sounding heresy, they jump in headfirst.

"Their faith was not threatened for a moment. This is because my wife and I made it an absolute priority to introduce our children to God from their earliest years. Each evening we helped them say and understand the pre-Shema prayer, With an abundant love you love us Oh Lord our God."
He says this in regard to his own kids.  
"Train up a child..."

"Our problem is that we have failed to mass market the only ultimately compelling reasons for being Jewish: an infatuation with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a love affair with the searing truth of Torah, the revelation of the totality of all existence."  

...I think showing contemporary relevance without compromising the message, taught to one's kids from when they are young is the optimal approach for any of us.  Problem comes in trying to make the soccer game, the PTA meeting, the Rotary Club, the Neighborhood/Homeowner's ass'n meeting, maintain a relationship with a spouse, earn a living and have anything of yourself left at the end of the day is a tough gig.  Gotta just make the choice to slow down, realize this is no dress rehearsal, and take the time to live one day at a time.

"I do think it is important to observe that Judaism and Christianity are two completely separate and incompatible faiths. However we are blessed to live in a country whose Christians do not hate us. Instead, they wish to learn from us and bring greater spiritual authenticity into their own lives. There is no way this can hurt us. The number of churches that hold Passover Seders grows exponentially each year. The number of Christian booksellers that carry in stock books from Artscroll and other Jewish publishers grows each year. What a perfect time to project simultaneous friendship toward our Christian fellow citizens and warm embrace to our alienated Jewish brethren."

...This is the heart and soul of what we're trying to express here, IMO!

"It would surely be astonishingly arrogant to suppose that our small nation should repay good with evil by shunning the hand of friendship extended by American Christians who ask nothing in return.

Instead, let us celebrate our blessings, living among the best friends we Jews have had anywhere during the past two thousand years and let us so conduct ourselves as a holy nation and a kingdom of priests that our friends say Happy is their Father who gave them the Torah."

...Bravo! Encore! Where's my Bic lighter? I feel like I need to give a standing ovation with the lighter held high, like I did for all those '70's musicians, way back in the day. Wink
My, how things do change.

Brilliant insights by Rabbi Lapin!

Strings

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2005, 06:10:36 PM »
>The one thing that I have noticed in reading about Jewish history is the fact that in America there has never been a pogrom at the level that history teaches us about that has occured, well, virtually everywhere else in the world.<

Actually, I remember having a religious discussion with a Jew on ship. We were just poking fun at each-other, and he popped the "We're God's Chosen people!". To which I responded "yeah... but chosen for what: designated whipping boys?". I ducked the wadded up napkin at that point... Wink


 I've noticed something important about those who are willing to work with people of other faiths: an ability to laugh at themselves and their faith.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2005, 06:41:03 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
I've noticed something important about those who are willing to work with people of other faiths: an ability to laugh at themselves and their faith.
Well said, bro.  Mel Brooks has done some pretty funny stuff poking fun at Jews and Christians alike.

Ya gotta be a little Meshugga, just to get through life's insanity! Wink

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2005, 07:29:00 PM »
One of Many,

I've read your post several times and see nothing threatening or out of order in it.  You post what you believe and know to be true.  It is, imo, a statement of position.  Nothing wrong with that.   I did not see any rocks being thrown.  
I think our hope here is that we can try and share our beliefs in a fashion that will cause each of us to think about what we know and believe, not necessarily to convince anyone, or ourselves to change our position.  Just to help each of us to put into practice our faith which should be a lamp unto the world.  The decisions that others make should be based on what is in their hearts and minds.  Reason should cause us to come closer together.  Faith is a personal thing in which each man is, in fact, an island.

Please stick around.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2005, 08:05:06 PM »
I guess it came across a little like trying to convert anyone not under his flag, grampster.

If I was hypersensitive about it, it's only because I think this dialog is actually making some inroads into understanding one another without having to change each other.  I've been in lots of conversations that went south FAST when someone became dogmatic and unreasonable.

1oM, If I jumped prematurely, or incorrectly, please forgive.

Thanks,
Fig

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2005, 07:33:54 AM »
Well, Fig, faith is in many ways about dogma.  Yet the premise that you put forth in starting this thread is a good thing.  There are more ways why we are more alike than we like to think.  We separate ourselves by choice.  That is OK, too.
I like the concept of tolerance.  That means we never have to accept the other guy's beliefs and dogma, but should be able to tolerate it if it is reasonable.  I think that is mostly what being an American is all about.  Our culture is one of tolerance.  
There are those, however, who wish to shove their dogma or beliefs down our collective throats.  I draw the line there.  If a man has the opportunity to save or lose his soul, that is, at the end of the day, his decision to make, not yours or mine.
Present your case rationally and in good will.  Many has the person changed his ways because of the behavior of another.  Talk sometimes is like the harsh clanging of a bell.  Actions mean much more.  That is the meaning of the dissertaion on Love in the Christian bible.  It is not telling someone you love them, it is behaving in that manner.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Stand_watie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,925
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2005, 05:47:43 PM »
I've been absent for a couple of days, sorry. Personal things I've been dealing with.

I do agree that there is a vast divide between American "Christians" and European "Christians" regarding Jews and anti-semitism.

I think that anti-semitism in America has largely been from people eager to make a racial distinction between Jews and other white Europeans. In Europe however, the divide has been more religious, and the "Christians" who identify themselves as such are more "Christian" from the perspective of ethnicity than from their religious preference.

Additionally, for at least 100 years, perhaps 200 years, American Christians of the evangelical ilk have identified with the nation of Israel.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

matis

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2005, 06:53:35 PM »
Quote from: Felonious Fig
...one thing we haven't mentioned is the way that these very benefits are being threatened, and why it is CRITICAL for us to find common ground and work to protect them.
Fig, to me that's the whole point!



On TFL or THR, for my location I say, I used to think I lived in the USA but now I find myself in the  Twilight Zone.

This is almost literally true for me.

In a way, I guess, I deserve this.


ALL of the values and half-baked, destructive ideas I subscribed to in my misspent youth as a left-liberal atheist -- they're ALL coming to pass.


It is a nightmare from which I cannot awaken.  There is no way out.



I think a part of me, back then, didn't really believe such things could come about.  So I could safely posture that way and thereby show myself to be above the heathen.


Who would have believed that a country that represents what this one does could collapse morally as quickly as it's doing?


Rabbi Lapin says somewhere, I fogot whether it's in this essay -- that the United State is rapidly exhausting its Judeo-Christian fuel.  So we can banish religion, support sexual insanity, curtail parental rights, destroy the family -- turn all of the virtues upside down -- and still function.  But once the founding values are sufficiently forgotten -- then there will be no limit to the degradation we will fall into.  We're well on the way down already.


Until my daughter was born I never worried about this.  I can take care of myself.  I always land on my feet.  So who cares, just have a ball.


But her arrival turned me upside down.  I absolutely treasured her (don't most parents?).  But how was I going to teach her who she was?  How was I going to keep her safe from the rot all around us?  One thing led to another and I was forced to realize that my values were part of the problem and not the solution.

She caused me to struggle toward my Judaism.  And she forced me to really look at this country and realize how blessed I am to be here and to be able to share it with her.


But just a I was coming to my senses, I saw that what I had finally came to appreciate, was falling apart before my eyes.


Somehow I did the seemingly impossible.  She and her mother (my ex) are ultra-Orthodox Jews and live as much as is possible within this community.  So they're "safe".

But not really.  Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe.  It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.



 
Quote
...I have to laugh at how well he knows us!  My comments in the early parts of this thread were sort of "out there".  Sure, we'd convert you if we could!  But short of that, if we don't dismiss each other out of hand, there may be great and strong friendships to be forged.
Yes, he know us.  And I cannot help thinking that we Jews cannot turn it around without the Christians.  And vice-versa.  And battle forges tight bonds between the soldiers.


Quote
...which speaks volumes for those that DO remain in the faith. As for those who HAVEN'T,...

"Train up a child..."
I guess you're just not enlightened, Fig.  Don't you know that the fairest way is to withhold moral teaching from the child.  Not fair to IMPOSE our ideas and values on him.  When he is grown, he will chose for himself.  And and along the way, we'll even solicit his opinion on issues -- while he's in grammer and high school -- (as if he knows anything).


This IS the way today, isn't it?


I call that child abuse.  Child abandonment.


Just like we don't teach religion and morals in the schools.  Separation of church and state, you know.  Population too diverse.  Create a vacuum and then be surprised when rot rushes in to fill it.





 

 
Quote
...Bravo! Encore! Where's my Bic lighter? I feel like I need to give a standing ovation with the lighter held high ...
Yep, pretty much how I felt.



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2005, 05:18:16 AM »
Quote
But not really.  Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe.  It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.
A modest proposal:  Evangelical Christians will pray for those Jews who "missed" the Messiah the first time around, and stop spouting nonsense like "God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews" - Jews will pray for those of us Gentiles that "fell for a false Messiah", but who are otherwise "rightous Gentiles", and give Christians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intentions.  In the meantime, we BOTH get busy plugging the leaks and bailing out the sinking boat society is in.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

matis

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
Despising the species II: Fellowship of Kindred folks
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2005, 06:14:10 AM »
Quote from: richyoung
Quote
But not really.  Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe.  It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.
A modest proposal:  Evangelical Christians will pray for those Jews who "missed" the Messiah the first time around, and stop spouting nonsense like "God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews" - Jews will pray for those of us Gentiles that "fell for a false Messiah", but who are otherwise "rightous Gentiles", and give Christians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intentions.  In the meantime, we BOTH get busy plugging the leaks and bailing out the sinking boat society is in.
Sounds just about right to me, richyoung.


Where's the bailer?




matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.