Author Topic: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park  (Read 9037 times)

Unisaw

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Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« on: April 28, 2009, 01:42:06 PM »
Thomas Sowell's latest column demonstrates his clear thinking in these very strange times:

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/04/28/survival_optional?page=1

Survival Optional
Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, April 28, 2009

It used to be said that self-preservation is the first law of nature. But much of what has been happening in recent times in the United States, and in Western civilization in general, suggests that survival is taking a back seat to the shibboleths of political correctness.

We have already turned loose dozens of captured terrorists, who have resumed their terrorism. Why? Because they have been given "rights" that exist neither in our laws nor under international law.

These are not criminals in our society, entitled to the protection of the Constitution of the United States. They are not prisoners of war entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention.

There was a time when people who violated the rules of war were not entitled to turn around and claim the protection of those rules. German soldiers who put on U.S. military uniforms, in order to infiltrate American lines during the Battle of the Bulge, were simply lined up against a wall and shot.

Nobody even thought that this was a violation of the Geneva Convention. American authorities filmed the mass executions. Nobody dreamed up fictitious "rights" for these enemy combatants who had violated the rules of war. Nobody thought we had to prove that we were nicer than the Nazis by bending over backward.

Bending over backward is a very bad position from which to try to defend yourself. Nobody in those days confused bending over backward with "the rule of law," as Barack Obama did recently. Bending over backward is the antithesis of the rule of law. It is depriving the people of the protection of their laws, in order to pander to mushy notions among the elite.

Even under the Geneva Convention, enemy soldiers have no right to be turned loose before the war is over. Terrorists-- "militants" or "insurgents" for those of you who are squeamish-- have declared open-ended war against America. It is open-ended in time and open-ended in methods, including beheadings of innocent civilians.

President Obama can ban the phrase "war on terror" but he cannot ban the terrorists' war on us. That war continues, so there is no reason to turn terrorists loose before it ends. They chose to make it that kind of war. We don't need to risk American lives to prove that we are nicer than they are.

The great Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that law is not some "brooding omnipresence in the sky." It is a set of explicit rules by which human beings structure their lives and their relationships with one another.

Those who choose to live outside those laws, whether terrorists or pirates, can be-- and have been-- shot on sight. Squeamishness is neither law nor morality. And moral exhibitionism is beneath contempt, when it sacrifices the safety of those who live within the law for the sake of self-satisfied preening, whether in editorial offices or in the White House.

As if it is not enough to turn cutthroats loose to cut throats again, we are now contemplating legal action against Americans who wrung information about international terrorist operations out of captured terrorists.

Does nobody think ahead to what this will mean-- for many years to come-- if people trying protect this country from terrorists have to worry about being put behind bars themselves? Do we need to have American intelligence agencies tip-toeing through the tulips when they deal with terrorists?

In his visit to CIA headquarters, President Obama pledged his support to the people working there and said that there would be no prosecutions of CIA agents for prior actions. Then he welshed on that in a matter of hours by leaving the door open for such prosecutions, which the left has been clamoring for, both inside and outside of Congress.

Repercussions extend far beyond issues of the day. It is bad enough that we have a glib and sophomoric narcissist in the White House. What is worse is that whole nations that rely on the United States for their security see how easily our president welshes on his commitments. So do other nations, including those with murderous intentions toward us, our children and grandchildren.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 01:57:10 PM »
Quote
Even under the Geneva Convention, enemy soldiers have no right to be turned loose before the war is over.

So, Mr. Sowell, when will the War on Terror be over? What are our objectives?

There have been terrorists since the beginning of time. The practice predates the word. Are you implying we should keep these people behind bars until there are no terrorists at all?

Quote
Those who choose to live outside those laws, whether terrorists or pirates, can be-- and have been-- shot on sight.

You would have been correct had everybody imprisoned at Guantanamo, and similar facilities, has been a terrorist or militant, captured on the field of battle. But when you have people carted in from airports in Saudi Arabia and street cafes in the United Kingdom because someone suspects they may be a terrorist, it stops being as clear and simple as you wish for it to be.

In a conventional war against an enemy, every enemy soldier anywhere can be legally shot and killed. That is why the Geneva Convention mantains that any 'legal combatant' must wear a uniform or at least some form of insignia - so that fighting sides know who the soldiers are and can at least avoid shooting and killing innocents. THe simple rule that we can kill enemy generals without trial even if they're not actively shooting at our own troops does not apply when you cannot easily tell who the enemy is.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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roo_ster

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 03:46:13 PM »
So, Mr. Sowell, when will the War on Terror be over? What are our objectives?

There have been terrorists since the beginning of time. The practice predates the word. Are you implying we should keep these people behind bars until there are no terrorists at all?

Nah, hang them like one would hang a pirate back in the day.

There should be a price to pay for their actions.

I am not in real life, nor do I play Thomas Sowell on TV.  Just thought I'd make that clear.



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roo_ster

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gunsmith

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 04:34:10 PM »
Quote
There was a time when people who violated the rules of war were not entitled to turn around and claim the protection of those rules. German soldiers who put on U.S. military uniforms, in order to infiltrate American lines during the Battle of the Bulge, were simply lined up against a wall and shot.

Wow, never heard that before.
Not very politically correct.
I doubt Americans would do that now.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=16464.0
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Werewolf

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 05:19:52 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog
So, Mr. Sowell, when will the War on Terror be over? What are our objectives?

There have been terrorists since the beginning of time. The practice predates the word. Are you implying we should keep these people behind bars until there are no terrorists at all?
Why not? They sure wouldn't be terrorizing anyone while behind bars now would they.

IMO they deserve little more than a bullet behind the ear when captured. Harsh for sure but no less harsh than the terrorists slowly chopping off heads with a knife while the victim is screaming and struggling.

Animals deserved to be treated as such.

On second thought most terrorists these days don't ever rise to the level of animal. Evil Monster is a more apropos description.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 06:43:45 PM »
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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wquay

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 07:23:47 PM »
^ what Micro said

I have no problem with executing or imprisoning those who, by some process of law, are convicted of attempting to attack the US. But labeling someone a terrorist does not justify denying them any or all basic human rights.

taurusowner

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 07:35:58 PM »
Since when is a war zone any place for convictions and trials?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 08:07:17 PM »
Since when is a war zone any place for convictions and trials?

And that would be meaningful if everybody who is imprisoned at Gitmo were a combatant, captured in a warzone shooting at US troops. If that were true, I'd be the first one to cheer on the firing squad.

HOWEVER, that is not not the case.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 09:44:28 PM »
Since when is a war zone any place for convictions and trials?
Since now.  We're no longer allowed to fight wars, we're only allowed to wrangle in court. Actually fighting a war isn't nice, and it definitely isn't politically correct.

"Moral exhibitionism" indeed.  I'm going to have to remember that phrase.

Balog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 02:47:26 AM »
Since now.  We're no longer allowed to fight wars, we're only allowed to wrangle in court. Actually fighting a war isn't nice, and it definitely isn't politically correct.

"Moral exhibitionism" indeed.  I'm going to have to remember that phrase.

I'd agree, for people in combat. I honestly don't know; are Micro's claims true? Because I'm opposed to snatching random people outside of combat.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 06:14:08 AM »
Balog, Wiki hosts a list of known Guantanamo detainees. There's quite a few that were arrested in various countries where America is not fighting. Now, they may still be guilty as sin of various evil acts, but the principle of "we caught them on the battlefield" doesn't really apply if you're arrested at an airport in the UK.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 09:09:11 AM »
IMO, it was likely a mistake to mix the two types of detainees. 
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Balog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 10:56:57 AM »
Balog, Wiki hosts a list of known Guantanamo detainees. There's quite a few that were arrested in various countries where America is not fighting. Now, they may still be guilty as sin of various evil acts, but the principle of "we caught them on the battlefield" doesn't really apply if you're arrested at an airport in the UK.

If Gitmo is a secret prison, how does Wiki know who's there?
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longeyes

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 12:05:28 PM »
On the battlefield?

Where is the battlefield?  Subways in Spain?  Lower Manhattan?  No-go zones in Sweden?  The streets of St. Denis?

The battleground is a theater of the mind, of ideas, and the scope is global.
"Domari nolo."

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 01:09:14 PM »
On the battlefield?

Where is the battlefield?  Subways in Spain?  Lower Manhattan?  No-go zones in Sweden?  The streets of St. Denis?

So you're telling me it's okay for the US government to seize people in Lower Manhattan, take them away and torture them? Really?

Quote
If Gitmo is a secret prison, how does Wiki know who's there?

The US Department of Defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guant%C3%A1namo_Bay_detainees

Quote
On March 3, 2006 the DoD partially complied with a court order to release the names of the remaining Guantánamo detainees.[4] The court order required the DoD to release the names of all the detainees. Initially, the DoD only released 317 names. On April 19, 2006, the DoD released a list with 558 names.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Jamisjockey

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 01:21:19 PM »
The War on Terror will be just like the War on Drugs.  Without end. 
We have always be at war with Eurasia.
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longeyes

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 02:15:13 PM »
The War has never been with "Terror," and everybody knows that.  Terror is just a tool of an ideology that seeks the overthrow of our values.

"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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CNYCacher

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 02:15:28 PM »
558!

Wow.

I don't know why but whenever I pictured gitmo there were like 20 guys in there.
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longeyes

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 02:18:45 PM »
The fact that "the war on [fill in the blank]" is exploited for illicit and ignoble gain does not mean that there are no wars going on.  There's been a war on Liberty for centuries, just as there's been, via the drug cartels, a war on Reason.
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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longeyes

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 02:32:34 PM »
Quote
So you're telling me it's okay for the US government to seize people in Lower Manhattan, take them away and torture them?

I said nothing about torture.

I am referring to the obvious fact that the theater of war no longer has strict geographic boundaries.  Wherever we see the same ideas provoking social chaos and disruption there is a war zone.  How we decide to deal with it depends on many factors.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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richyoung

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 04:12:51 PM »
Wow, never heard that before.
Not very politically correct.
I doubt Americans would do that now.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=16464.0

Traditionally, if you aren't in uniform, you are toast.  Nazi spies landing on US soil out of U-boats wore at least part of a uniform - just in case they got caught while paddling in.  On the other hand, we executed a a German general in Italy for executing American sabatours who... weren't in uniform.  Victor's justice, & all that....
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 04:29:51 PM »
I said nothing about torture.

I am referring to the obvious fact that the theater of war no longer has strict geographic boundaries.  Wherever we see the same ideas provoking social chaos and disruption there is a war zone.  How we decide to deal with it depends on many factors.

We need to have rules limiting the use of violence by the state.  True, if our troops are shot at in a war zone, or if they're squashing a terrorist cell, they can just shoot these guys dead. But if you catch a guy with a Casio F91 watch in an airport in Dubai or London, you can't treat him the same way you treat a foreign soldier for the simple reason you can't be sure he is one.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2009, 05:15:18 PM »
I'm not advocating shooting on suspicion.  And you know that.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Thomas Sowell Knocks One Out of the Park
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 05:16:05 PM »
I'm not advocating shooting on suspicion.  And you know that.

Nowhere did I say you did that.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner