Author Topic: Israel?  (Read 10908 times)

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Israel?
« on: November 29, 2005, 06:03:20 PM »
Now, I'm not a stormfronter, not nearly. I like the Jewish people and I think Israel is a fine if overly socialistic nation. My problem is with their leadership and foreign policy.

We give them three billion a year. They're second only to the former Soviet Union in selling weapons to China.

We give them advanced technology. They sell it to China. They've been doing this at full speed ahead since 1992, with Patriot Missile Systems, building prototype aircraft with US cash and technology and sharing it with China, etc. They don't give a crap how much they're endangering Taiwan and US soldiers if we defend Taiwan from Israeli-armament fueled Chinese aggression.

Israel sold spare parts and weapons willynilly to Iran, cavalierly attempted to ignite an arms race in south american countries, and then starts complaining whenever the US is about to sell something to an Arab nation. Cough.

They've also spied on us heavily, stolen as many secrets as possible, and cost many lives by trading spy intelligence on our agents to Commies, before Russia came down.

Last I checked, China wasn't the reason Israel exists as a country. I believe we were that deciding factor. I can trust Israel to look out for the wellbeing of, well, Israel, which is why threatening them with a Tac-Nuke right on their farmlands would be an excellent way to keep them in line.

I like Israel, I want them to stick around for a long time, but they belong in a much more submissive position. Comments? Tongue

And, yeah, most gun board people are going to throw a fit at this type of post, because pictures of chicks walking around with guns give them chubbies.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/archive/crs_israeli-us_relations.shtml

brimic

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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2005, 09:25:58 PM »
The way I see it, Israel is just a drop in the bucket.

We give the United States Government roughly 2 trillion $$s per year out of our pockets and the government has and continues to do 1000x as much of everything that you pointed out that Israel has done.

I'm not trying to whitewash Israel- they are far from perfect, but we have much bigger fish to fry in the world, or at least complain about.
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Sindawe

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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2005, 09:36:33 PM »
CHEAT!  I clicked the link expecting to see hot Jewish chicks with cool guns. Cheesy  

Quote
They're second only to the former Soviet Union in selling weapons to China.
So why the Hezmana is Israel making more $$$ than us at the arms trade?
Quote
We give them three billion a year
Time for Israel to stand on its own financially.  Along with the rest of the frelling planet.  Daddy Warbuck we ARE NOT.

Personally, for all their faults (which like ours, are many) I LIKE having Israel around.  Keeps the world...interesting.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

The Rabbi

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Israel?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2005, 05:16:01 AM »
I'll point out that a lot of that "aid" is actually just vouchers for American stuff, like M-16s and F-14s.  So the money gets spent here.
That said, I'd like nothing better than to see Israel cut off from US aid so they can make decisions like other normal countries instead of being dependent on Uncle Sam, or Dodi Shmuel, as he is known.
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richyoung

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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2005, 08:27:19 AM »
Blackburn, you left out stealing the Mirage plans, and then building (and marketing) copies, deliberately attacking a U.S. Navy intelligence vessel, the U.S.S. Liberty - even machine-gunning streacher-bearers and life rafts - apparently because they were afraid it might be intercepting radio messages about the illegal execution of Egyptian prisoners of war, and compromising the q-37 counter-battery radar to the Chi-Coms.   "With friends like this, who needs enemies?"
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Phantom Warrior

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Israel?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2005, 10:52:13 AM »
I'm not excusing what Israel has done.  But I can understand it to a certain degree.  Read a history of Israel sometime.  A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time by Howard M. Sachar is excellent.  Israel has been rolled a LOT since it's founding.  All the developing countries in Africa it helped out was a great example.  Arab countries yell "Oil" and everyone's like "Israel who?"

So I can understand a policy of "Look out for number one."  Again, not excusing it, but they've gotten stabbed in the back a lot.

RevDisk

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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2005, 05:48:38 PM »
I'm with Richyoung regarding the USS Liberty.   Not the friendliest action there.   I'm against handing out as much unaccountable foreign aide anyways.

A more recent scandal was some allegedly Mossad connected companies (Comverse and JSI) in the telecom industry were involved in wiretapping the feds.  Plus Franklin-AIPAC.   Etc, etc.


Phantom Warrior, sorry to seem cold blooded, but I lack sympathy for a nation that engages in hostile military and intelligence operations against my own nation.   There is no excuse for a "friendly" nation to roast US servicepersons alive, nor wiretapping US federal agencies, nor attempting (actually, succeeding) to infiltrate the Pentagon.
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Bemidjiblade

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Israel?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 04:09:44 AM »
RevDisk,

We haven't always been there for Israel, and back in 48 we just sat back and left them to die.  They'd be morons not to keep tabs on us because we've proven they can't depend on us.  Now, Israel is perhaps the ONLY country you'll ever hear me say has a vested interest in keeping watch on us.  Let's compare and contrast here.  Kuwait got invaded and we went to war.  For 40+ years the murderous jerks surrounding Israel have been trying to wipe them off of the face of the planet, and we have never committed any troops.  We've proven more willing to help terrorists in Bosnia than our strongest ally in the middle east.  If we're supposed to be such good friends that they should never spy on us, then we've really fallen short of the mark.

richyoung

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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2005, 06:32:22 AM »
Quote from: Bemidjiblade
RevDisk,

We haven't always been there for Israel, and back in 48 we just sat back and left them to die.  They'd be morons not to keep tabs on us because we've proven they can't depend on us.  Now, Israel is perhaps the ONLY country you'll ever hear me say has a vested interest in keeping watch on us.  Let's compare and contrast here.  Kuwait got invaded and we went to war.  For 40+ years the murderous jerks surrounding Israel have been trying to wipe them off of the face of the planet, and we have never committed any troops.  We've proven more willing to help terrorists in Bosnia than our strongest ally in the middle east.  If we're supposed to be such good friends that they should never spy on us, then we've really fallen short of the mark.
What you say is true...but not the whole picture.  The REASON the Liberty was there was to prove that Russian aircrews were manning so-called 'Egyptian" bombers - to HELP Isreal - for which they got blowed up.   In the Yom Kippur war, it was only American resupply via C-5 cargo aircraft that kept Isreal in the game, and American SR-71 photos that convinced the Russians to puty pressure on Sadat to set terms.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Bemidjiblade

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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2005, 11:52:45 AM »
Rich,

You're making great points.  I wasn't trying to diminish the fact that we HAVE been allies.  But we have also fallen short.  So I would fully expect the sort of guarded cooperation that would mean they have contingency plans.  We're allies, and I'm glad and approve, but I think they'd be fools to rely upon the political will of America, so I don't blame them for keeping tabs and being sure not to be totally dependent on our power base.

richyoung

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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2005, 05:19:45 AM »
Don't know if I'd go that far: after all, where would we get Desert eagles from?  (Not to mention that IMI used to make some pretty good "hard slides" for 1911s....)
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Phantom Warrior

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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2005, 10:45:42 AM »
Quote from: richyoung
Don't know if I'd go that far: after all, where would we get Desert eagles from?  (Not to mention that IMI used to make some pretty good "hard slides" for 1911s....)
Magnum Research, of Minnesota, actually makes the Desert Eagle.  IMI did help Magnum Research with some design issues when the Desert Eagle was first introduced (hence this persistent myth), but it's actually a Magnum Research gun.

A detailed history is available on the Modern Firearms webpage.

Bemidjiblade

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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2005, 03:35:11 AM »
I was thinking about this discussion thread this morning at work.
I guess I agree with both sides.  We can and should expect Israeli cooperation, but I think it's unreasonable to expect blind trust.

If someone ditched you once in a life and death situation, would you honestly ever blindly trust them again?  I think that even if you chose to forgive and remain friends/coworkers whatever, you would always be keeping an eye out just in case.  It's simply CYOA.

RevDisk

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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2005, 09:14:29 AM »
Quote from: Bemidjiblade
RevDisk,

We haven't always been there for Israel, and back in 48 we just sat back and left them to die.  They'd be morons not to keep tabs on us because we've proven they can't depend on us.  Now, Israel is perhaps the ONLY country you'll ever hear me say has a vested interest in keeping watch on us.  Let's compare and contrast here.  Kuwait got invaded and we went to war.  For 40+ years the murderous jerks surrounding Israel have been trying to wipe them off of the face of the planet, and we have never committed any troops.  We've proven more willing to help terrorists in Bosnia than our strongest ally in the middle east.  If we're supposed to be such good friends that they should never spy on us, then we've really fallen short of the mark.
Been a bit busy, work's hell at the moment.  But better paying than the Army.  Sorry for the delay.

Ahem.  I was in the Balkans.  And helped train some of said "terrorists".   So here's the straight deal on them.  The locals did some bad stuff.  The foreigners (mujihadeen, from mostly Arab countries) did the REALLY bad *expletive deleted*it.   Local Muslims were no worse than the local Christians.   Considering they didn't start the war, the Serbs did...   Tit for tat ain't a 'moral' justification, but it's a realistic explaination.

In a roundabout manner, local Muslims narc'd on the mujihadeen and/or booted them out of their AO's.   Simple reason, mujis were more trouble than they were worth and the US was willing to make it worth the locals' while to play ball.    While not as ego pleasing as dropping multi-million dollar smart bombs on the enemy, it worked.  Fighting a war on ego is a sure fire way to expensively lose.   Fighting a war while being realistic and flexible gives much better odds of winning.

I'm not saying the Muslims in the Balkans were innocent.  No one was.  No side was the "good guys".   All sides, Christian and Muslim, did very bad things at one point or another.    The Balkans were a success, per se.   Realistically, I know it'll start up again.  Someday.   Maybe tomorrow, maybe in next decade.   That's life.   But we kept the mujihadeen from securing the region, at a very reasonable cost efficiency in both personnel and money.    Good enough for my books.


Israel is not our friend.  They are a hostile government.  Not saying we should bomb them into the stone age, although we have many reasons to sanction them instead of giving them aide.   I recognize that Israel has their back up against a wall.   But we've done much for Israel, and I ain't seeing the payoff.  It's not a secular democracy, it doesn't have natural resources we want/need, and they've never significantly done anything to contribute to OUR military or govt.    You'd think under those circumstances, they'd play nice.  Instead, they play dirty against the hand that feeds.  There is a big difference between intelligence and espionage.  Intelligence is gathering information.   Certainly justifiable and understandable.   Espionage is intentionally causing harm.   Considering how much we've done for Israel....   No justification.  None.  

I'm not sure why we are under the impression we have some kind of moral requirement to help a country that has done us so much harm while contributing very little.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Bemidjiblade

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Israel?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 11:15:36 PM »
I have issues describing Israel as hostile to the US.  We have open trade, tourism, strong ethnic and cultural ties among our Christian, Jewish, and Islamic populations, etc.  My good friend will be studying archeology there this coming semester.

Israel works with the US for the peace process much more than I would have expected, including holding summits here throughout the past two decades, many times in instances that I was shocked because it seemed to be contrary to the interest of the Israeli people.

"It's not a secular democracy."  So only secular democracy is acceptible?  You expect a nation formed by a persecuted religious ethnicity to be secular?

It's sure not a totalitarian dictatorship, a militant communist country, a hotbed for terrorist training, or any of a dozen other Bad Things I could point to in other countries.  Is Israel more socialistic than the UK or other former English "democracies"?  Not appreciably so.

These aren't the sort of things that are the case for Iran, pre-war Iraq or Afghanistan, Communist China, etc etc.

As far as intentionally causing harm, I'm not sure I agree with you.
They didn't steal weapons technology from us, we gave it to them.
Is it a "very little" thing that they have been the most consistent military ally in the region for the past 50+ years?

They play dirty against the hand that feeds?  What are they, our dogs?  That sounds pretty imperialistic.  It also doesn't seem to be the whole story.  Remember Desert Storm?  Israel stayed out of the fighting even though Iraq was firing MISSILES at them because WE asked them to so that we could have OUR military coalition.  America would never have made the same sacrifice of national security for another nation.

They produce arms and weaponry, and give it to China.  Ok.  They have a decent weapons industry.  It's not like we don't trade with China eh?  And they haven't given them nukes or MIRV technology like Clinton did.  I'm not HAPPY about it, but I don't see it as worse that what a certain political party in our own shores has done.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 04:10:30 AM »
Quote from: RevDisk
RevDisk,

Israel is not our friend.  They are a hostile government.  Not saying we should bomb them into the stone age, although we have many reasons to sanction them instead of giving them aide.   I recognize that Israel has their back up against a wall.   But we've done much for Israel, and I ain't seeing the payoff.  It's not a secular democracy, it doesn't have natural resources we want/need, and they've never significantly done anything to contribute to OUR military or govt.    You'd think under those circumstances, they'd play nice.  Instead, they play dirty against the hand that feeds.  There is a big difference between intelligence and espionage.  Intelligence is gathering information.   Certainly justifiable and understandable.   Espionage is intentionally causing harm.   Considering how much we've done for Israel....   No justification.  None.  

I'm not sure why we are under the impression we have some kind of moral requirement to help a country that has done us so much harm while contributing very little.
You aint seeing the payoff so it isnt there.  Yeah, right.
I wont mention the bombing of Iraqi nuclear reactor back in, oh '86 or so.  I wont mention that Israel has often used US made weapons and then provided field testing under live conditions.  I wont mention the myriad intel items that Israel has provided, being as how they have the only effective intelligence in the region.  But you aint seeing the payoff so I guess none of those things exist.
If Israel is the biggest foreign aid recipient Egypt is the second biggest.  Want to compare those two countries?  Which one has free elections?  Which one grants rights to its minorities?  Which one has close trade relations with the US?  But Israel has done so much harm while providing so little, as you cogently point out.
I am so certainly no fan of Israel and its avowedly secular gov't.  But when I see garbage like this, ill-informed and seemingly agenda-driven, I have to wonder and I have to at least point out the historical facts.
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richyoung

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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 05:55:30 AM »
Ah, yes...lets look at some historical facts...



JohnPollard delivered over 1000 classified documents to Israel for which he was well paid. Included in those documents were the names of over 150 US agents in the Mideast, who were eventually turned into agents for Israel.

But by far the most egregious damage done by Pollard was to steal classified documents relating to the US Nuclear Deterrent relative to the USSR and send them to Israel. According to sources in the US State Department, Israel then turned around and traded those stolen nuclear secrets to the USSR in exchange for increased emigration quotas from the USSR to Israel. Other information that found its way from the US to Israel to the USSR resulted in the loss of American agents operating inside the USSR. Casper Weinberger, in his affidavit opposing a reduced sentence for Pollard, described the damage done to the United States thus, "[It is] difficult to conceive of a greater harm to national security than that caused by... Pollard's treasonous behavior."

1947. Information collected by the ADL in its spy operations on US citizens is used by the House Select Committee on Unamerican Activities. Subcommittee Chair Clare Hoffman dismisses the ADLs reports on suspected communists as hearsay."

1950 John Davitt, former chief of the Justice Department's internal security section notes that the Israeli intelligence service is the second most active in the United States after the Soviets.

1954 A hidden microphone planted by the Israelis is discovered in the Office of the US Ambassador in Tel Aviv.

1956 Telephone taps are found connected to two telephones in the residence of the US military attaché in Tel Aviv.

1954 "The Lavon Affair". Israeli agents recruit Egyptian citizens of Jewish descent to bomb Western targets in Egypt, and plant evidence to frame Arabs, in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon is eventually removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.

1965 Israel apparently illegally obtains enriched uranium from NUMEC Corporation. (Washington Post, 6/5/86, Charles R. Babcock, "US an Intelligence Target of the Israelis, Officials Say.")

1967 Israel attacks the USS Liberty, an intelligence gathering vessel flying a US flag, killing 34 crew members. See "Assault on the Liberty," by James M. Ennes, Jr. (Random House). In 2004, Captain Ward Boston, Senior Legal Counsel for the Navys Court of Inquiry into the attack swears under oath that President Lyndon Johnson ordered the investigation to conclude accident, even though the evidence indicates the attack was deliberate. Given the use by Israel of unmarked boats and planes, and the machine-gunning of USS Libertys lifeboats, the most likely explanation is that USS Liberty was to be sunk with all hands, with evidence left to frame Egypt for the sinking. This would have dragged the US into the war on Israels side.

1970 While working for Senator Henry Scoop Jackson, Richard Perle is caught by the FBI giving classified information to Israel. Nothing is done.

1978, Stephen Bryen, then a Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer, is overheard in a DC hotel offering confidential documents to top Israeli military officials. Bryen obtains a lawyer, Nathan Lewin, and the case heads for the grand jury, but is mysteriously dropped. Bryen later goes to work for Richard Perle.

1979 Shin Beth [the Israeli internal security agency] tries to penetrate the US Consulate General in Jerusalem through a Honey Trap, using a clerical employee who was having an affair with a Jerusalem girl.

1985 The New York Times reports the FBI is aware of at least a dozen incidents in which American officials transferred classified information to the Israelis, quoting [former Assistant Director of the F.B.I.] Mr. [Raymond] Wannal. The Justice Department does not prosecute.

1985 Richard Smyth, the owner of MILCO, is indicted on charges of smuggling nuclear timing devices to Israel (Washington Post, 10/31/86).

1987 April 24 Wall Street Journal headline: "Role of Israel in Iran-Contra Scandal Won't be Explored in Detail by Panels"

1992 The Wall Street Journal reports that Israeli agents apparently tried to steal Recon Optical Inc's top-secret airborne spy-camera system.

1992 Stephen Bryen, caught offering confidential documents to Israel in 1978, is serving on board of the pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs while continuing as a paid consultant -- with security clearance -- on exports of sensitive US technology.

1992 "The Samson Option," by Seymour M. Hersh reports, Illicitly obtained intelligence was flying so voluminously from LAKAM into Israeli intelligence that a special code name, JUMBO, was added to the security markings already on the documents. There were strict orders, Ari Ben-Menashe recalled: "Anything marked JUMBO was not supposed to be discussed with your American counterparts."

1993. The ADL is caught operating a massive spying operation on critics of Israel, Arab-Americans, the San Francisco Labor Council, ILWU Local 10, Oakland Educational Association, NAACP, Irish Northern Aid, International Indian Treaty Council, the Asian Law Caucus and the San Francisco police. Data collected was sent to Israel and in some cases to South Africa. Pressure from Jewish organizations forces the city to drop the criminal case, but the ADL settles a civil lawsuit for an undisclosed sum of cash.

1995 The Defense Investigative Service circulates a memo warning US military contractors that "Israel aggressively collects [US] military and industrial technology." The report stated that Israel obtains information using "ethnic targeting, financial aggrandizement, and identification and exploitation of individual frailties" of US citizens.

1996 A General Accounting Office report "Defense Industrial Security: Weaknesses in US Security Arrangements With Foreign-Owned Defense Contractors" found that according to intelligence sources "Country A" (identified by intelligence sources as Israel, Washington Times, 2/22/96) "conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally." The Jerusalem Post (8/30/96) quoted the report, "Classified military information and sensitive military technologies are high-priority targets for the intelligence agencies of this country." The report described "An espionage operation run by the intelligence organization responsible for collecting scientific and technologic information for [Israel] paid a US government employee to obtain US classified military intelligence documents." The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (Shawn L. Twing, April 1996) noted that this was "a reference to the 1985 arrest of Jonathan Pollard, a civilian US naval intelligence analyst who provided Israel's LAKAM [Office of Special Tasks] espionage agency an estimated 800,000 pages of classified US intelligence information."

The GAO report also noted that "Several citizens of [Israel] were caught in the United States stealing sensitive technology used in manufacturing artillery gun tubes."

1996 An Office of Naval Intelligence document, "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" reported that "US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology." Jane's Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that "until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China." The report noted that this "represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation." (Flight International, 3/13/96)

1997 An Army mechanical engineer, David A. Tenenbaum, "inadvertently" gives classified military information on missile systems and armored vehicles to Israeli officials (New York Times, 2/20/97).

1997 The Washington Post reports US intelligence has intercepted a conversation in which two Israeli officials had discussed the possibility of getting a confidential letter that then-Secretary of State Warren Christopher had written to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat. One of the Israelis, identified only as Dov, had commented that they may get the letter from "Mega, the code name for Israels top agent inside the United States.

1997 US ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk, complains privately to the Israeli government about heavy-handed surveillance by Israeli intelligence agents.

1997 Israeli agents place a tap on Monica Lewinskys phone at the Watergate and record phone sex sessions between her and President Bill Clinton. The Ken Starr report confirms that Clinton warned Lewinsky their conversations were being taped and ended the affair. At the same time, the FBIs hunt for Mega is called off.

2001 It is discovered that US drug agents communications have been penetrated. Suspicion falls on two companies, AMDOCS and Comverse Infosys, both owned by Israelis. AMDOCS generates billing data for most US phone companies and is able to provide detailed logs of who is talking to whom. Comverse Infosys builds the tapping equipment used by law enforcement to eavesdrop on all American telephone calls, but suspicion forms that Comverse, which gets half of its research and development budget from the Israeli government, has built a back door into the system that is being exploited by Israeli intelligence and that the information gleaned on US drug interdiction efforts is finding its way to drug smugglers. The investigation by the FBI leads to the exposure of the largest foreign spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, operated by Israel. Half of the suspected spies have been arrested when 9-11 happens. On 9-11, 5 Israelis are arrested for dancing and cheering while the World Trade Towers collapse. Supposedly employed by Urban Moving Systems, the Israelis are caught with multiple passports and a lot of cash. Two of them are later revealed to be Mossad. As witness reports track the activity of the Israelis, it emerges that they were seen at Liberty Park at the time of the first impact, suggesting a foreknowledge of what was to come. The Israelis are interrogated, and then eventually sent back to Israel. The owner of the moving company used as a cover by the Mossad agents abandons his business and flees to Israel. The United States Government then classifies all of the evidence related to the Israeli agents and their connections to 9-11. All of this is reported to the public via a four part story on Fox News by Carl Cameron. Pressure from Jewish groups, primarily AIPAC, forces Fox News to remove the story from their website. Two hours prior to the 9-11 attacks, Odigo, an Israeli company with offices just a few blocks from the World Trade Towers, receives an advance warning via the internet. The manager of the New York Office provides the FBI with the IP address of the sender of the message, but the FBI does not follow up.

2001 The FBI is investigating 5 Israeli moving companies as possible fronts for Israeli intelligence.

2001 JDLs Irv Rubin arrested for planning to bomb a US Congressman. He dies before he can be brought to trial.

2002 The DEA issues a report that Israeli spies, posing as art students, have been trying to penetrate US Government offices.

2002 police near the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station in southern Washington State stop a suspicious truck and detain two Israelis, one of whom is illegally in the United States. The two men were driving at high speed in a Ryder rental truck, which they claimed had been used to "deliver furniture." The next day, police discovered traces of TNT and RDX military-grade plastic explosives inside the passenger cabin and on the steering wheel of the vehicle. The FBI then announces that the tests that showed explosives were false positived by cigarette smoke, a claim test experts say is ridiculous. Based on an alibi provided by a woman, the case is closed and the Israelis are handed over to INS to be sent back to Israel. One week later, the woman who provided the alibi vanishes.

2003 The Police Chief of Cloudcroft stops a truck speeding through a school zone. The drivers turn out to be Israelis with expired passports. Claiming to be movers, the truck contains junk furniture and several boxes. The Israelis are handed over to immigration. The contents of the boxers are not revealed to the public.

2003 Israel deploys assassination squads into other countries, including the United States. The US Government does not protest.

2004 Police near the Nuclear Fuel Services plant in Tennessee stop a truck after a three mile chase, during which the driver throws a bottle containing a strange liquid from the cab. The drivers turn out to be Israelis using fake Ids. The FBI refuses to investigate and the Israelis are released.

2004 Two Israelis try to enter Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base, home to eight Trident submarines. The truck tests positive for explosives.


EDITED TO ADD:   There is also some circomstantial evidence to suggest that the Chandra Levi affair was an intelligence operation gone bad.  SHe may have been a "honey trap" for Gary Condit, who was a senior member of the House intelligence commitee.
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 04:03:25 PM »
Quoting:

>>1954 "The Lavon Affair". Israeli agents recruit Egyptian citizens of Jewish descent to bomb Western targets in Egypt, and plant evidence to frame Arabs, in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon is eventually removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.<<

This I know a bit about.  My father was there in '56 - Suez Canal, one of the first on the beach with the British Army corps of engineers.

Egyptian dictator Nasser was a full-blown Nazi.  My father's unit captures propaganda films praising Hitler *and* the Holocaust.  Not denying it mind you - praising it.  This had a serious effect on the moral of a bunch of English/Scots/Welsh/etc. kids who had themselves survived WW2.  My father at age 10 was watching Spitfires duke it out overhead when his parents weren't pulling him back into bomb shelters.

Now.  If Nasser had those kinds of tendencies, and he absolutely did, how in God's name do you think Jews would react?  Hmmm?  Try "balls to the wall frenzy, every dirty trick in the book and then some" just for starters.

I have absolutely no doubt the bit quoted above as Israel's doing is correct.  It is absolutely in line with how I'd expect Israel to react to that sort of threat, the threat my father was an eyewitness to in the same period.

Betcha we still don't know half the stuff Israel did to that openly pro-Nazi regime...and under the circumstances ALL of it would be fully warranted right up to the slow torture to the death of the whole Nasser ruling elite regime.

---------------

That's just one piece of the above that I *know* is wildly slanted against Israel.  Makes me strongly distrust the whole list - not necessarily the raw facts themselves, but the surrounding data, the circumstances that drove each event.

Were they in the right every time?  Hell no, that would be impossible.  But they damnsure weren't wrong as often as that list makes out.

Justin

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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 08:28:58 PM »
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I'm not sure why we are under the impression we have some kind of moral requirement to help a country that has done us so much harm while contributing very little.
For some folks the payoff is eschatological in nature...
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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2005, 02:20:36 AM »
Disclaimer: I live in Israel.


This said and done: The US 'aid to Israel' is not actually aid. What most Israelis (and Americans) fail to understand that it is conditional on two points:

A)That Israel (and Egypt, who is ALSO an FMS beneficiary).
 
and

B)That Israel only spends the FMS money on American-made technology.

This has forced Israel to not only return every dime of FMS money to America (by purchasing F-16's, Colt rifles, and Salt Lake ammo), but to also invest lots of EXTRA money in America.

Why? Because if Israel wants to make a new technology and pay for it with FMS money, it needs to invest in a US business to make it in the states. The reason IMI (a government company, by the way) invested in Magnum Research and now Mossberg is so that Israel would be in possession of US-based small arms factories. In a similar vein, Israel relocated shoe and uniform factories to America.


And yes. Israel likely spies on the US. And the US spies on Israel.

And every other sane European nation has spies in the US. And the US has spies in France and Germany and Britain.

If you think otherwise, then you would be very naive.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MicroBalrog

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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2005, 02:25:42 AM »
Note: The JDL's Israel wing, KAH, is illegal in Israel. To blame Israel's government for JDL activities is VERY weird.

Quote
I am so certainly no fan of Israel and its avowedly secular gov't.  .
Secular government? Are you sure I am living in the same Israel?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

richyoung

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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2005, 04:16:47 AM »
Quote from: JimMarch
Quoting:

>>1954 "The Lavon Affair". Israeli agents recruit Egyptian citizens of Jewish descent to bomb Western targets in Egypt, and plant evidence to frame Arabs, in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon is eventually removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.<<

This I know a bit about.  My father was there in '56 - Suez Canal, one of the first on the beach with the British Army corps of engineers.

Egyptian dictator Nasser was a full-blown Nazi.  My father's unit captures propaganda films praising Hitler *and* the Holocaust.  Not denying it mind you - praising it.  This had a serious effect on the moral of a bunch of English/Scots/Welsh/etc. kids who had themselves survived WW2.  My father at age 10 was watching Spitfires duke it out overhead when his parents weren't pulling him back into bomb shelters.

Now.  If Nasser had those kinds of tendencies, and he absolutely did, how in God's name do you think Jews would react?  Hmmm?  Try "balls to the wall frenzy, every dirty trick in the book and then some" just for starters.

I have absolutely no doubt the bit quoted above as Israel's doing is correct.  It is absolutely in line with how I'd expect Israel to react to that sort of threat, the threat my father was an eyewitness to in the same period.

Betcha we still don't know half the stuff Israel did to that openly pro-Nazi regime...and under the circumstances ALL of it would be fully warranted right up to the slow torture to the death of the whole Nasser ruling elite regime.

---------------

That's just one piece of the above that I *know* is wildly slanted against Israel.  Makes me strongly distrust the whole list - not necessarily the raw facts themselves, but the surrounding data, the circumstances that drove each event.

Were they in the right every time?  Hell no, that would be impossible.  But they damnsure weren't wrong as often as that list makes out.
Read again - they weren't bombing EGYPTIAN targets - they were bombing WESTERN targets - folks like your dad, at the time.  Still OK with you?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

The Rabbi

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2005, 05:50:46 AM »
This might come as a shock to some folks, but Israel is a sovereign nation and as such it acts in accordance with what it perceives to be its best interest.  That best interest doesnt always coincide with the best interests of its allies.  Every other nation behaves the same way.  Singling out Israel for "special" treatment seems misguided.
Quote
Secular government? Are you sure I am living in the same Israel?
I dont know where you live.  Can you buy pork in your city?  Can you ride the busses on Shabbos?  Can you eat in non-kosher restaurants?
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2005, 06:33:48 AM »
Rich Young:

Well my dad didn't show up until two years later Smiley but yeah, I do understand.  Property damage only though as I recall, unless you have data to the contrary?

Again, I'm not saying they didn't pull dirty tricks.  But let's stop and think for a sec: was it proper for western governments to have anything to do with a guy like Nasser who was openly espousing continuing the Holocaust?!  Under those circumstances, is blowing up an empty building or three such a serious sin?

richyoung

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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2005, 07:53:38 AM »
Quote from: JimMarch
Rich Young:

Well my dad didn't show up until two years later Smiley but yeah, I do understand.  Property damage only though as I recall, unless you have data to the contrary?

Again, I'm not saying they didn't pull dirty tricks.  But let's stop and think for a sec: was it proper for western governments to have anything to do with a guy like Nasser who was openly espousing continuing the Holocaust?!  Under those circumstances, is blowing up an empty building or three such a serious sin?
When its done to trick an ally into war, in my opinion, yes - it's quite a serious sin.  If we didn't associate, or do business with folks who think the 'Final SOlution" is just a jim-dandy idea, gasoline would be 5 bucks a gallon - or more. Nasser wasn't any worse than the Shah, the Saudis. the Kuwaitis, the Iraqis, etc.  Not to mention all the other genocides occuring in Russia, Red China, North Korea, Cambosia, Vietnam, Ruwanda, Mogadishu, Mozambique. the Congo, etc, etc, etc,,,,
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...