No. For the record I am attacking the preposterous notion of moral equality between the nations that have announced intentions of genocide and those that have not. I respect Israel for restraint in dealing with its enemies, a restraint that its opponents have not shown in word or deed. There are good guys and there are bad guys in the world. People who advocate slaughter of millions (Like someone advocating use of Nuclear weapons on Jerusalem, for example) have forfeited my respect. But hey, that was an excellent combination of Ad Hominum and Straw Man arguments.
No. For the record, you were excusing Israel's aggressive behavior by pointing out how bad the people you were "preemptive striking" were - and where I come from, thats "ends justify the means". Also for the record, *I* didn't advocate nuking Israel, nor do I so believe - I *CAN* understand the frustration that leads to such a comment, and it would behoove Israel and her supports to understand Uncle Sam's patience is running thin. I don't forsee the US nuking anyone in the near future, but Israel better remember we CHOOSE to aid her, and we can just as soon choose NOT to.
It's not hard at all when I saw Israeli armed forces forcibly enforcing withdrawals for Jewish settlements for the sake of peace in the same year when Palestinians still voice public support for bombers who murder women and children in public.
Whether one agrees, or disagrees, with the decision to forcibly evacuate the settlements, one has to admit it is a bold and clear-cut demonstration of Israel's determination to strive to make the peace process work. Now if only her ALLIES could get that level of consideration...
And yet you refuse to accept Israel's need to ensure its own national security,...
NOT at my expense! NOT at my countries expense! DOUBLE-NOT when we are protecting you and funding you!
whether or not that happens to coincide with the best interest of the United States.
Oh that is rich! Really, I'm astounded! Remember the Oil Embargo - against the US? For helping Israel in 1973? We kept her alive, and paid a helluva price in terms of money AND economic misery for it!
We've certainly worked towards our own national security when it was not in Israel's best interest. The double-standard appears to continue.
Pardon me for being so mean-spirited to expect that the criminals who attacked the Liberty, if not tried and punished, at least not be honored as heroes in one of your museums!
The Egyptians knew this and did this anyway. You seem to be having trouble w/ concepts of national security, so I will present you with a schoolboy's imagery. If someone says "cross this line and I'll punch you" and you deliberately cross the line, you are asking for a fight.
That rather depends on whether one has the right to draw the line in the first place. Quadaffi found out he didn't, but internal events inside of Egypt don't rise to causus belli in mine, nor the UN's eyes. Should Isreal be compelled to ship petroleum or war materials across her borders from Egypt to Syria, for example?
We've been over this. The best defense is a good offense.
Funny - the local judges don't seem to buy that when someone just out-and-out sucker-punches someone else: they tend to view "he who threw the first punch" as the aggressor, not defender.
It is better to fight the enemy on their property than to try and fight them off of yours.
...and even better to sieze the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and the Golan Heights while you are at it, huh?
I've spent the better part of 3 hours looking at info from both sides of the USS Liberty incident. You asked for a trial, both Isreal and the US held military inquiries into the incident. Israel offered a public apology, stating that it was the result of the confusion of the war that was ongoing.
Israel LIED! Both linguists on the Liberty itself, as well as Air Force crew on an EC-121 and monitoring stations in the embassy in Tel Aviv intercepted voice messages FROM THE STRIKE AIRCRAFT that prove the attack was on a known American vessel. Only US Naval frequencies, including the distress frequency, were jammed during the attack. Did you miss the list of senior officials in the dfense, State, and intelligence business that say, without reservation, that the attack was deliberate? As for Israel having a "military inquiry", since when does the criminal get to run his own trial?
Of course, cataclysmic errors never occur during wartime. General Jackson's troops must have known who he was when he was fatally shot. The US Navy must have deliberately allowed the sailors of the USS Indianapolis to die by the hundreds when the ship went down in WWII. The pentagon estimated that 21,000 deaths in WWII were caused by friendly fire.
NONE of this has anything to do with ordering unmarked jets to sink a neutral ship and murder the survivors - which is what happened.
Ultimately, the most compelling reason for me to reject the "Vicious Deceitful Isreal" take on the incident is that I cannot come up with a single way that Isreal stood to benifit from the attack. They had no motive to provoke a war with the US (which very nearly did happen when 2 aircraft carriers responded to the Liberty's distress call) while fighting a coalition of their long-standing enemies.
You are that naive? I'll spell it out for you. Unmarked jets attack the Liberty, hopefully destroying their commo capability. (They almost succeed at this - only a jerry-rigged connection between a transmitter and a different system's antenna enabled them to get a distress call out.) The torpedo boats make sure NO ONE gets off alive by raking the decks with .50 cal fire, and destroying any launched lifeboats or rafts. (This mission accomplished. With no survivors, Egypt gets blamed for the attack - (this in fact is what our government thought when the distress call first went out - after all, the attackers were UNMARKED!). Object - draw the US into a war with Egypt under false pretenses. Precedent? This is the SAME thing Israel tried to do with the "Lavan Affair" in the fifties!
What happened was tragic. I wish that it had never happened. It is not, for me, sufficient evidence to base a half-century worth of hatred against Israel.
It isn't for me either,...by itself. Unfortunately, its NOT by itself. Pollard, the Q-37 fiasco, numerous Mosaad "Honey Trap" operations against US officials,...all an ongoing patern of abused trust.
Among other things, I would not want the United STates to be judged on a similar standard. Remember the Aspirin factory in the Sudan that we blew up 'cause on Clinton's orders? By the same logic, all of Africa should hate us forever.
1. The Sudan wasn't supplying us with massive foreign aid.
2. The Sudan was in fact harboring terrorists, if not at the aspirin factory.
3. We've spent tons of $$$ trying to HELP post-colonial Africa.
4. A big chunk of the world, including most of Africa, reflexively hates us anyway.
The attack on the USS Liberty was a horrible event. We disagree on the levels of culpability and criminality, as well as intent.
The Liberty was the most electronically advanced ship in the world - bristling with antennas from stem to stern, including a huge "MoonBounce" round reflector dish. It also was painted grey, almost 500 feet long, had white hull number markings and her name in English painted across the stern. It was also flying a huge American flag. To suppose that this vessle was confused for a 1920's, 250 foot long, silver, LIVESTOCK ship tied up to a dock in Alexandria waiting to be scrapped...by the BEST ARMED FORCE and INTELLIGENCE SERVICE in the WORLD strains credibility beyond the breaking point. Israel was at war - they knew EXACTLY where every enemy and neutral hull within 600 miles was - they flew reconnaisence patrols (which we monitored) for just such a purpose - and they correctly identified the Liberty!
"trust is earned".
You object to Israel SELLING arms to China. Your point as I understand it is that it economic or commercial support of a nation's enemies is a betrayal, particularly military support or commerce.
The United States has provided financial aid to Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, all of which are enemies of Israel.
Egypt an enemy of Israel? I thought you were at peace with them? I thought that's why Sadat got the Nobel Peace prize? Are ou saying things have changed? (..and, BTW, that WAS the US that brokered that peace deal...)
As for Jordan, they've had their own problems with the PLO, and along with Kuwait, have been a moderating influence among the more virulent pan-Arabists. In fact King Hussein was secretly negotiating with Golda Mier and Abba Eban for THREE YEARS with regards to secure borders and a lasting peace...until the IDF attacked Es Samu in the Jordanian West Bank with over 3000 troops, tanks, and fighters - AFTER being reassured THAT MORNING that Israel had no intention of attacking Jordanian territory (13 November, 1966). So Israel "pooped in its own mess kit" on that on!
As for Syria, they helped fight GWI, and we need their help on the border regions to find AL-Quieda operatives.
Now, since you brought it up, just WHAT, other than $$$, did Israel need from Red China so desperately that they sold us out on the Q-37?
The US has continued to provide aid to Jordan, Palestine, and Saudi Arabia despite documented incidences of these countries supporting terror attacks on Israeli civilians.
...and we continue to provide aid to Israel despite documented war crimes, espionage, and attempting to drag us into war with Arab nations under false pretenses....
