Author Topic: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?  (Read 7581 times)

Desertdog

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What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« on: May 04, 2009, 12:25:27 PM »
This is a perfect illustration of how to quieten one side of the First Amendment.

What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
Jim Brown - OneNewsNow - 5/4/2009 5:00:00 AM
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=513142


A Virginia congressman says the anti-Christian hatred and bigotry of homosexual blogger Perez Hilton and his supporters underscores one of the fallacies undergirding federal "hate crimes" legislation.

Congressional backers of the federal hate crimes bill that recently passed the House repeatedly claim that it will help ensure equal protection under the law for all Americans.  They also argue that the bill does not threaten free speech, but merely punishes acts of violence motivated by hate.
 
Congressman Randy Forbes (R-Virginia) is a former ranking member of the Judiciary Crime Subcommittee, and founder of the Congressional Prayer Caucus. He recently took to the House floor and provided a powerful example of how the "Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act" does not ensure equality under the law.
 
Congressman Forbes compared the protection Miss California Carrie Prejean would receive under the bill to the special protection homosexual blogger and Miss USA judge Perez Hilton would have been afforded.
 
"Had [Hilton] done what he said he would do and stormed that stage and pulled that tiara off [Prejean's] head and [inflicted] bodily harm when he did it, there would not have been one ounce of protection under this piece of legislation for that young girl," Forbes stated.
 
"But after he did it, if she had in response made a statement back about the very sexual orientation that had led him to his hatred and dislike for her, and if she had responded by slapping him or any physical injury, she would have had the potential of a ten-year federal piece of legislation coming against her."
 
The Virginia Republican also argued that if beauty contestant's father had rushed onto the stage at the Miss USA pageant and responded to Hilton's hatred in a physical way, he would have been open to prosecution under the hate crimes bill as well.

HankB

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 12:54:31 PM »
Hate crime = thought crime.

It's a way to criminalize opinion, rather than action.

Some years back a black man James Byrd, was chained up and dragged to his death behind a truck here in Texas. WITHOUT any thought crime law on the books, Texas arrested, prosecuted, and convicted the three murderers.

Two received a sentence of capital punishment and are currently on death row, one got life in prison with no parole.

WHAT MORE could a thought crime bill accomplish?
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buzz_knox

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 01:08:18 PM »
WHAT MORE could a thought crime bill accomplish?

The main goals of such legislation are to frighten law abiding citizens in non-protected classifications into "policing" themselves, and to make those in protected classifications feel empowered by, and thus beholden to, politicians.


Seenterman

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 03:22:31 PM »
Umm this seems like taking a hypothetical situation, streching it and the complaining about the hypothetical outcome. Seems like an exercise in useless if I ever saw one.  This is from someone who hates Perez Hilton, not because of his sexual orientation I just find everything about him revolting.

If you want to reform hate crime laws, just come out with an actual event or situation that was unjust, speak about it, and how reform should happen but this is just pointless.

Werewolf

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 03:22:47 PM »
So if I understand this correctly:

If a homosexual calls someone an a'hole and that someone punches the HS because he was called an a'hole and not because the punchee is an HS someone can still go to the joint for 10 years even without proof that he punched the HS because he was an HS and not just because the HS called him an a'hole.

Can that be right?

OH! Wait!

I forgot - the Dems are in charge now.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 03:35:20 PM »
I don't see what the problem is, really.

Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.

THey punish people for attacking other people, injuring and killing them. Attacking other people and causing them injury is a bad thing no matter who the people are - but one would argue that attacking people based on their sexual orientation or their skin color is worse than attacking them for profit - because at least the robber does not (normally) feel morally justified in comitting his crime, but the sort of person who attacks people based on their skin color does, and thus is a greater danger to society. He is basically a terrorist.
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buzz_knox

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 03:48:26 PM »
I don't see what the problem is, really.

Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.

THey punish people for attacking other people, injuring and killing them. Attacking other people and causing them injury is a bad thing no matter who the people are - but one would argue that attacking people based on their sexual orientation or their skin color is worse than attacking them for profit - because at least the robber does not (normally) feel morally justified in comitting his crime, but the sort of person who attacks people based on their skin color does, and thus is a greater danger to society. He is basically a terrorist.

Hate crimes punish thoughts, which is bad enough.  What makes things worse is that such laws are typically used to punish politically incorrect thoughts.  Spend some time looking through the application of such laws in the US (including hate speech codes) and you'll find quite a bit of disparate treatment.

Werewolf

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 03:54:31 PM »
I don't see what the problem is, really.

Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.

THey punish people for attacking other people, injuring and killing them. Attacking other people and causing them injury is a bad thing no matter who the people are - but one would argue that attacking people based on their sexual orientation or their skin color is worse than attacking them for profit - because at least the robber does not (normally) feel morally justified in comitting his crime, but the sort of person who attacks people based on their skin color does, and thus is a greater danger to society. He is basically a terrorist.

You're kidding right... Just trying to rile the folks up?

You cannot really believe that killing someone because they're blue with yellow polka dots is worse than killing someone because you want their stuff?

They're dead either way and the appropriate punishment either way is death so the perpetrator is also dead either way.

If we start puninshing people for what they are thinking while commiting the act where will it all end?

Why hell - let's make it a capital offense to spit on the sidewalk while thinking about just how stupid that idiot of a concrete guy was who couldn't even get the joints between slabs straight. Afterall if he ever found out imagine the damage it would do to his psyche to know that the quality of his work was not universally loved.
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Desertdog

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 04:04:14 PM »
Quote
Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.
They will, when passed. 

Why are the Feds putting their mitts on things that should be state law?

MicroBalrog

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 04:13:23 PM »
Quote
You cannot really believe that killing someone because they're blue with yellow polka dots is worse than killing someone because you want their stuff?

Murder is murder. All murderers should be either in prison (forever) or dead.

But even with murder, premeditated murder is punished separately from manslaughter - depending precisely on the criminal's state of mind when committing the crime.

A premeditated assault is  'worse' than an assault committed without premeditation, and an assault under the influence of drugs or alcohol is also 'worse' than an assault committed without the influence of said drugs.

The law in many countries and states already differentiates between crimes based on the state of mind of the killer.

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buzz_knox

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 04:25:27 PM »
The law in many countries and states already differentiates between crimes based on the state of mind of the killer.

The state of mind deals with what the person intended to do, not why.  If you planned to kill someone, it's premediated.  If you planned to kill someone because they were X or Y . . . it's still premeditated.  Until recently, there was no "premeditated +P."  We were dealing with crime, not ammunition.

The law also didn't look at the skin color, ethnic origin, religious affiliation, etc of the killer before deciding whether or not to apply the law to the killer.  As I said, spend sometime looking at the implementation of these laws and speech codes and you'll see what the real goal was.

El Tejon

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 04:36:06 PM »
Quote
The law also didn't look at the skin color, ethnic origin, religious affiliation, etc of the killer before deciding whether or not to apply the law to the killer.

Unless as a aggravator at sentencing, especially at death penalty phase, if applicable.
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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 06:21:34 PM »
El Tejon, I've mentioned a friend of mine before, but now that you're putting your two cents in...

My friend is white, his wife is black. If they were assaulted by someone who doesn't like interracial marriage, wouldn't the assault on my friend's wife carry a hate crime charge, but not the assault on my friend?

guns and more

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 07:31:56 PM »
Hate crimes cheapen the value of white males.
How? Prison sentences are greater for crimes committed against minorities. (result of hate crime legislation.)
Due to prison overcrowding, sentences are reduced.
Violence against a white male is punished the least, if at all.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 08:11:49 PM »
Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.

No, they merely punish people for their beliefs, thoughts and/or emotions.  If I'd serve five years for assault and seven years for hate crime assault, then I'm serving two years for "hating" someone. 


Quote
one would argue that attacking people based on their sexual orientation or their skin color is worse than attacking them for profit - because at least the robber does not (normally) feel morally justified in comitting his crime, but the sort of person who attacks people based on their skin color does, and thus is a greater danger to society.
So now you think it is OK to punish people for thinking they were morally justified?  But this argument is flimsy anyhow.  The record will show that more crimes are committed for greed or other, less remarkable motives, than from "hatred." 

I was almost fooled by this sort of argument when I heard it from, of all people, Al Gore.  He said that hate crimes were worse, because they affected a whole class of people, psychologically.  Then I recalled how I felt about the stabbing that had occurred just across the street from me.  The whole class of people in my neighborhood felt less safe, because of that garden-variety assault. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 10:16:23 PM »
How often does murder not involve a certain amount of hate?

longeyes

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 12:00:47 AM »
Quote
I don't see what the problem is, really.

Hate crime laws do not punish people for criticizing other people's sexual orientation or their skin color.

THey punish people for attacking other people, injuring and killing them. Attacking other people and causing them injury is a bad thing no matter who the people are - but one would argue that attacking people based on their sexual orientation or their skin color is worse than attacking them for profit - because at least the robber does not (normally) feel morally justified in comitting his crime, but the sort of person who attacks people based on their skin color does, and thus is a greater danger to society. He is basically a terrorist.

Hmmm, well, think again...the times they are a-changin'...

[Eugene Volokh, April 30, 2009 at 4:07pm] Trackbacks
Federal Felony To Use Blogs, the Web, Etc. To Cause Substantial Emotional Distress Through "Severe, Repeated, and Hostile" Speech?
That's what a House of Representatives bill, proposed by Rep. Linda T. Sanchez and 14 others, would do. Here's the relevant text:
Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication, with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass, or cause substantial emotional distress to a person, using electronic means to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both....

["Communication"] means the electronic transmission, between or among points specified by the user, of information of the user's choosing, without change in the form or content of the information as sent and received; ...

["Electronic means"] means any equipment dependent on electrical power to access an information service, including email, instant messaging, blogs, websites, telephones, and text messages.

1. I try to coerce a politician into voting a particular way, by repeatedly blogging (using a hostile tone) about what a hypocrite / campaign promise breaker / fool / etc. he would be if he voted the other way. I am transmitting in interstate commerce a communication with the intent to coerce using electronic means (a blog) "to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior" -- unless, of course, my statements aren't seen as "severe," a term that is entirely undefined and unclear. Result: I am a felon, unless somehow my "behavior" isn't "severe."

2. A newspaper reporter or editorialist tries to do the same, in columns that are posted on the newspaper's Web site. Result: Felony, unless somehow my "behavior" isn't severe.

3. The politician votes the wrong way. I think that's an evil, tyrannical vote, so I repeatedly and harshly condemn the politician on my blog, hoping that he'll get very upset (and rightly so, since I think he deserves to feel ashamed of himself, and loathed by others). I am transmitting a communication with the the intent to cause substantial emotional distress, using electronic means (a blog) "to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior." (I might also be said to be intending to "harass" -- who knows, given how vague the term is? -- but the result is the same even if we set that aside.) Result: I am a felon, subject to the usual utter uncertainty about what "severe" means.

4. A company delivers me shoddy goods, and refuses to refund my money. I e-mail it several times, threatening to sue if they don't give me a refund, and I use "hostile" language. I am transmitting a communication with the intent to coerce, using electronic means "to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior." Result: I am a felon, if my behavior is "severe."

5. Several people use blogs or Web-based newspaper articles to organize a boycott of a company, hoping to get it to change some policy they disapprove of. They are transmitting communications with the intent to coerce, using electronic means "to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior." Result: Those people are a felon. (Isn't threatening a company with possible massive losses "severe"? But again, who knows?)

6. John cheats on Mary. Mary wants John to feel like the scumbag that he is, so she sends him two hostile messages telling him how much he's hurt her, how much she now hates him, and how bad he should feel. She doesn't threaten him with violence (there are separate laws barring that, and this law would apply even in the absence of a threat). She is transmitting communications with the intent to cause substantial emotional distress, using electronic means "to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior." Result: Mary is a felon, again if her behavior is "severe."

The examples could be multiplied pretty much indefinitely. The law, if enacted, would clearly be facially overbroad (and probably unconstitutionally vague), and would thus be struck down on its face under the First Amendment. But beyond that, surely even the law's supporters don't really want to cover all this speech.

What are Rep. Linda Sanchez and the others thinking here? Are they just taking the view that "criminalize it all, let the prosecutors sort it out"? Even if that's so, won't their work amount to nothing, if the law is struck down as facially overbroad -- as I'm pretty certain it would be? Or are they just trying to score political points here with their constituents, with little regard to whether the law will actually do any good? I try to focus my posts mostly on what people do, not on their motives, but here the drafting is so shoddy that I just wonder why this happened.
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FTA84

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 12:44:28 AM »
In reply to the post above,

It seems like the typical power grab that continues to go on.  It seems to be the goal of the government (perhaps, not maliciously, but out of laziness) to turn everything into a crime and then sort out whom to charge.  During the Heller case, both the city of Chicago and DC said that they banned handguns in the home but would never prosecute someone who used them for self preservation.  That seems all fine and dandy except for the fact that it takes away trial by jury.  Your going to jail depends on an elected office deciding to prosecute you. After all, there is no denying you broke the law, you had a handgun in your house (the fact that you used it to repel a crime one day would seem unimportant because you had it before you used it to repel a crime and the crime is to own one, not to use one).

Same with the above vague law.  Whom gets to decide what is over the edge?  If it is a law against using mean words there is no doubt you used mean words, despite the context, and despite the promise that it will only be used against those who use it for "hate crimes."

MicroBalrog

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2009, 02:28:16 AM »
Quote
So now you think it is OK to punish people for thinking they were morally justified?  But this argument is flimsy anyhow.  The record will show that more crimes are committed for greed or other, less remarkable motives, than from "hatred."

And what is your point?

The fact these crimes are less common doesn't make them less horrible.

Besides which: Nobody has any intent to punish even the most disgusting Phelps followers or KKK members for their beliefs. They are welcome to their beliefs. But if they injure people due to them, then this will be used as an aggravator at trial. Similarly, having an ND isn't normally followed by ten years in prison, but having an NS during comission of a felony can be.

The reason we have this problem is because all too often peple who commit violent crimes get very light sentences and then they go free. So what legislators do is tack more and more aggravating factors on.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 07:26:09 AM »
And what is your point?

The fact these crimes are less common doesn't make them less horrible.

But it does make them less of a "danger to society," as you put it. 

Quote
Besides which: Nobody has any intent to punish even the most disgusting Phelps followers or KKK members for their beliefs.
Nobody but you, Al Gore, and a bunch of other leftists.  Again, when you impose a greater sentence for hatred, you are punishing hatred. 

Quote
Similarly, having an ND isn't normally followed by ten years in prison, but having an NS during comission of a felony can be.
  How is that similar?
Quote
The reason we have this problem is because all too often peple who commit violent crimes get very light sentences and then they go free. So what legislators do is tack more and more aggravating factors on.
Agreed.  Let's just fix the problem, instead of policing people's thoughts, beliefs and emotions. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2009, 07:29:43 AM »
Quote
But it does make them less of a "danger to society," as you put it. 

Hate crimes are less common in America because it is a civilized nation. It is true that these are less common  than  ordinary crimes.  But A hate-criminal (a terrorist, essentially) is more dangerous to society than A robber.

Quote
  How is that similar?

In that an ND in itself is not a crime, but one that's committed as part of a crime is an aggravating factor.

Quote
Nobody but you, Al Gore, and a bunch of other leftists.

I hope you're not seriously implying I'm a leftist.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2009, 07:39:32 AM »
Hate crimes are less common in America because it is a civilized nation. It is true that these are less common  than  ordinary crimes.  But A hate-criminal (a terrorist, essentially) is more dangerous to society than A robber.

What, because they think they were morally justified?  And in your world, does your average street thug feel guilty about what he does?  It doesn't seem to work that way here in reality-land.  Besides, we're not talking about robbery, we're talking about assault.

Quote
In that an ND in itself is not a crime, but one that's committed as part of a crime is an aggravating factor.
  The crime is the aggravating factor, not the ND.  Besides, you're comparing a thoughtless action (ND), to a thought that is linked to an action. 

Quote
I hope you're not seriously implying I'm a leftist.
   ;/  Al Gore and other leftists. 
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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2009, 08:39:27 AM »
One doesn't commit a crime against someone because you love them.  There are already penalties for the crime that should be a reason enough not to commit the crime. 
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buzz_knox

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2009, 08:40:03 AM »
Hate crimes are less common in America because it is a civilized nation. It is true that these are less common  than  ordinary crimes. 

Not really.  They are just selectively prosecuted as such.  And that is the problem.  We have codified violations of the Equal Protection Clause and some people are happy about it.  Ah, well.  Some animals will always be more equal than other animals.


griz

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Re: What if 'hate crimes' law was applied to Miss USA fiasco?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 08:54:06 AM »
When someone explains why Colin Ferguson didn't have a hate crime tacked on to his murder charges I will believe that the motive for hate crime legislation is fair.
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