Author Topic: "You Americans are worse than the French"  (Read 6583 times)

Jocassee

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"You Americans are worse than the French"
« on: May 04, 2009, 01:55:58 PM »
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/05/missed-anniversary-vous-les-americains.html

My life experience does not qualify me to comment on this, but I offer it for your edification.

Quote
So when Cambodia and South Vietnam fell, I was one of the happiest traitorous bastards around. I just hoped "the Revolution" would start here in my lifetime. Yeah, I was that stupid.

Read the whole thing. You won't regret it.
I shall not die alone, alone, but kin to all the powers,
As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.

makattak

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 02:18:12 PM »
I don't regret it.

However, going through the rest of my day angry is probably not productive either.

We have blood on our hands... and it's not because of what the liberals claim, but because of our cowardice.

Thanks for yet another failure, Me Generation.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Strings

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 02:32:20 PM »
Wow. Just wow...

I was too young to actually be involved in all the anti-war BS for that one. My older brother was the right age though, and was (near as I can tell, still is) an avowed leftist. He tried steering me down that path, but dad had already taught me to think for myself...
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Werewolf

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 02:34:28 PM »
I don't know if there really is a LIST =|

But if there is just cliking that URL for the 3%'rs is an almost guaranteed way to get on it! :O

Which means, I suppose, I'm on it now (assuming I wasn't already on it that is).

J Napolitano would have a stroke if she went there.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 02:39:32 PM by Werewolf »
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Jocassee

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 02:38:56 PM »
I don't know if there really is a LIST =|

But if there is just cliking that URL for the 3%'rs is an almost guaranteed way to get on it! :O

I guess he's earned the right to be a 3%er.
I shall not die alone, alone, but kin to all the powers,
As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.

Werewolf

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 02:40:25 PM »
I guess he's earned the right to be a 3%er.

... Agreed
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Viking

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 03:15:14 PM »
"3%er"? ???
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Werewolf

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 03:47:43 PM »
"3%er"? ???

Read the sidebar to the right...
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vaskidmark

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 03:50:43 PM »
Hmmm.

I'm going to have to swallow some bile and then try to digest what he has written before I can say much, but there are two points I am pretty sure about:
1) I am not among those that will forgive him - it's having been so utterly betrayed.
2) I am not among those that will trust him.  I knew a few Hoi Chanh and learned to always have them in front of me, never behind me.

This "The sum total of what Herr Doktor taught me subverted completely my belief in communism, which from my own experiences had become somewhat cynical and jaded anyway." is what bothers me the most.  I understand him to be saying that his expectations were not being met, and thus he began to feel communism was not all it was cracked up to be.  That is vastly different that saying that he came to believe that communism was inherently not good [as differentiated from being "bad"], or that capitalism in fact met more of the needs of the society than communism.  Giving up a strongly-held -ism because you have become "cynical and jaded" is just another way of saying you stopped being an emo goth because it was no longer kewel past the age of 20.

Hold your friends close, but hold your enemies closer.  There are times when it is difficult to determine between friend and enemy - for me this is not such a time.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Viking

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 03:52:02 PM »
Read the sidebar to the right...
Ah. Thought I had read it before, wasn't able to place it.
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 08:53:57 PM »
I wonder what all was on the "Doktor's" reading list?

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 09:19:56 PM »
That kind of blew me away for a while.

And then Skidmark brought me back down to earth.
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Jocassee

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 09:52:43 PM »
That kind of blew me away for a while.

And then Skidmark brought me back down to earth.

I think a thorough examination of the gentleman's writings will reveal he is a true patriot.

Jewels like this (whether you agree or not) seem to indicate his conversion is complete.

Quote
When the histories are written, “National Rifle Association” will be cross-referenced with “Judenrat.” -- Mike Vanderboegh to Sebastian at "Snowflakes in Hell"

It is possible, I believe, to have a complete change of mind. Read through some of his other posts before you judge.
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As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.

makattak

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 12:22:20 AM »
Hmmm.

I'm going to have to swallow some bile and then try to digest what he has written before I can say much, but there are two points I am pretty sure about:
1) I am not among those that will forgive him - it's having been so utterly betrayed.
2) I am not among those that will trust him.  I knew a few Hoi Chanh and learned to always have them in front of me, never behind me.

This "The sum total of what Herr Doktor taught me subverted completely my belief in communism, which from my own experiences had become somewhat cynical and jaded anyway." is what bothers me the most.  I understand him to be saying that his expectations were not being met, and thus he began to feel communism was not all it was cracked up to be.  That is vastly different that saying that he came to believe that communism was inherently not good [as differentiated from being "bad"], or that capitalism in fact met more of the needs of the society than communism.  Giving up a strongly-held -ism because you have become "cynical and jaded" is just another way of saying you stopped being an emo goth because it was no longer kewel past the age of 20.

Hold your friends close, but hold your enemies closer.  There are times when it is difficult to determine between friend and enemy - for me this is not such a time.

stay safe.

skidmark

I think you have it completely wrong. He became disenchanted with Communism because what is proclaimed and what it practiced were not the same. As you can read in his post, the writings of Hayek and others completely attacked his world view. He had to come to grips with the fact that not only was Communism failing to live up to what it promised, it would ALWAYS be oppressive and evil. His comment about already being disenchanted was the beginning of his conversion, not simply a "oh well, this sounded good, but these people just keep screwing it up" but rather a "whoa, I've been following a philosophy that has doomed millions of men to horrible deaths".

I think the rest of his post about the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese illustrates his absolute disgust with his former self, not just a mere, "oh well, I was wrong."
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

vaskidmark

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 07:38:49 AM »
That he suffers great remorse for his past beliefs and sins is not a question in my mind.  That he now embraces non-communism, the Constitution, and Mom's apple pie are not questions in my mind.  I believe every word of "And one other thing. As near as I can tell without a god-like glimpse into other men's souls we are all, we ex-communists, motivated by guilt at what we did in the name of totalitarianism. This guilt we must expunge by our every action for the rest of our lives. We cannot backslide, we cannot be fooled, or fool ouselves, into believing the lies ever again."

I also believe every word of "So when somebody whispers in your ear, "Well, you can't trust him, he used to be a communist," think twice. For he may be the only one who sees clearly enough to point your way through the minefield of bad choices that collectivism -- any and all collectivism -- represents."  But that is philosophy, politics, and quite frankly mental masturbation, as opposed to action.


As I said, I have personal experiences with Hoi Chanh, and those experiences color my world.

As for his disgust with himself and communism for what it produced in SE Asia, I ask what has he done to redeem himself?  He waited until the statute of limitations was reached before "coming clean" about his activities: "Most of my "Benedict Arnold" period papers are part of a collection at the Ohio Historical Society. Look it up. You can look up the statute of limitations too. Nobody died. Like I said, we were very, very lucky."  At least the Hoi Chanh I knew were willing to point out the boobytraps they knew about.  Only a few (none of those I knew) revealed the identity of cadre leaders in order to eliminate the infrastructure.  Perhaps I'm looking for more than he is ever going to be capable of providing?  Who knows.

When the Cold War was going hot & heavy we (the USA) had a number of communists defect, and they defected for a variety of reasons.  All of them were required to trade some intelligence for being allowed to remain in the USA and under some level of "protection" from retribution by their former "masters".  I see no such quid pro quo mentioned.  That he now wholeheartedly embraces "the Anglo-American concepts of individual liberty, property, commerce and polity" is all to the good.

But there is still something missing.  It's not contrition, for I believe he is truely sorry for what he thought and did in the past.  It's redemption, as that word conotes reparation.  Mike Vanderboegh is not a common name in the history or politics of the Vietnam era, the 70's, or the anti-communists.  A quick Google search shows lots of recent stuff, but nothing of a history.  I'm still left waiting for something that shows me he is not just sharing a personal reflection but a life now as fully committed to his new politics as was his old life.

Maybe I was just burned too deeply.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Jocassee

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 06:56:32 PM »

As I said, I have personal experiences with Hoi Chanh, and those experiences color my world.
***************
Maybe I was just burned too deeply.

stay safe.

skidmark

I definitely appreciate your sentiment. Having been born in 1987 (the month Reagan made the "Tear down this wall" speech in fact =)) the Cold War is only something I can study, not something I have lived. None of my friends have been killed overseas, nor asked LBJ how many kids he killed. Thank you for putting this in perspective.
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vaskidmark

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 09:19:55 PM »
I definitely appreciate your sentiment. Having been born in 1987 (the month Reagan made the "Tear down this wall" speech in fact =)) the Cold War is only something I can study, not something I have lived. None of my friends have been killed overseas, nor asked LBJ how many kids he killed. Thank you for putting this in perspective.

It's not just the personal perspective I have from Vietnam.

Mike Vanderboegh had his "conversion" in the mid-70's.  He remained an unknown and unpublished individual until about the time of the election of Obama and the socialism-ization of the current version of the .gov.  Or at least that's the way I see it.  His name does not come up in any of the post-Vietnam era writings about VIetnam or the "class struggles" following Vietnam and the Civil Rights ears, and Google shows him to be extremely recent in anything via the internet.  I went looking for evidence of his "we ex-communists, motivated by guilt at what we did in the name of totalitarianism. This guilt we must expunge by our every action for the rest of our lives. We cannot backslide, we cannot be fooled, or fool ouselves, into believing the lies ever again" and came up completely blank until about the time of Obama as a candidate for POTUS.  I want to know where he was and what he was doing between 1975 and 2007-ish.

What I'm looking for and not finding very much evidence of is how he has gone about fulfillling his assertion that "This guilt we must expunge by our every action for the rest of our lives."  He may be doing some expunging now by supporting the threepers and the Oath Keepers movements, but there exists a gap of about 40 years that remains unaccounted for in his or the public record.  That gap makes me wonder how much of his current activity is either window dressing, conscience-salving, or something related to a 40-year legacy of restitution.  I find nothing to support the latter, and have reservations about the middle ground.

Have I missed something?  Did I close my eyes to that which really is right in front of them?  Is there some way someone can show me that Mike Vanderboegh really has been expunging his prior guilt for the last 40+ years?

Or is my BS meter accurate in telling me this is too little, too late?

stay safe.

skidmark

If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Dutchman6

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 01:54:14 AM »
You obviously haven't googled my name or read any of the following books:

The Secret Life of Bill Clinton by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
In Bad Company by Prof. Mark Hamm (I'm in the footnotes.)
To Shake Their Guns in the Tyrant's Face by Prof. Robert Churchill. (Most references here.)

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

From 1977 to 1993 I was, except for voting, donating to and having membership in Second Amendment groups, and nominal sorts of stuff that anybody who breathes and is an American citizen ought to do, largely politically inactive, raising a family and working.  In 1992, all that changed when I read Bob Dornan's insertions into the Congressional Record about Bill Clinton's anti-war career.  Heck, he and I had attended some of the same anti-war conferences, not that I remembered him.  That got me off the dime.  But Waco really mobilized me and I've been at it ever since.

Your skepticism is understandable, if misplaced.

Mike Vanderboegh
GeorgeMason1776@aol.com

CNYCacher

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 09:02:43 AM »
A wild Mike appears. . .
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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vaskidmark

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 12:01:49 PM »
.... From 1977 to 1993 I was, except for voting, donating to and having membership in Second Amendment groups, and nominal sorts of stuff that anybody who breathes and is an American citizen ought to do, largely politically inactive, raising a family and working.  In 1992, all that changed when I read Bob Dornan's insertions into the Congressional Record about Bill Clinton's anti-war career.  Heck, he and I had attended some of the same anti-war conferences, not that I remembered him.  That got me off the dime.  But Waco really mobilized me and I've been at it ever since.

Your skepticism is understandable, if misplaced.

Mike Vanderboegh
GeorgeMason1776@aol.com

From 196_ to 1975 you were, by your own admission, a participant in activities designed and attempting to not only destroy America but to kill Americans.  Your participation and activities were in support of, and in concert with, those whose alegiance was to a government both antithetical and hostile to America.

You say you had a conversion of faith and realized that the ideology you supported was inherently harmful not only to America but to humanity.  So you quit.

From 1977 to 1993 your history is with the militia movements and the Miniuteman border patrols/watches, which are admittedly one of the branches of 2A.  Then, you found out, apparently, that your antiwar compatriot Bill Clinton was a phoney, and you got upset.  Waco, you say, was the straw that broke your back concerning America's (the .gov's) betrayal of the Constitution and her citizens.

As I said before, those who came in from out of the cold by actually crossing the Iron Curtain were asked for a quid pro quo in order to partake of the benefits of America and her freedoms.  That usually involved some level of exposure of those left behind who continued to operate against America.  Snitching names at the least, and exposing extensive details of operations at greater levels.

I have read much of what you posted as your CV.  I have spent more than a few cursory hours following Google search trails and side-trails.  To paraphrase the Ragu sauce commercial - it aint in there!  You rage against and rag on the government's complicity against the citizenry and the foundations of the country, but somehow I missed where you expunge by your every actions the guilt at what you did in the name of totalitarianism.

Either that, or you ask me to accept your work against our own government's excesses as the full measure of expungement.  Well, I do not accept that.

You and I know there are still multitudes out there who are trying to cause the downfall of America from and on behalf of outside governments and ideological causes that are not Islamiofascist in origin - meaning any of the various threads that form the tangled knots of communism.  I think you still have the ability to do some things to deflect, delay or destroy those who are continuing those attempts.  In my very biased opinion, until you address those matters you have not done anything to expunge your past guilt. 

** Let me try another way of explaining why I have the problem I do regarding what I consider your lack of expungement.  For quite some time the criminal justice system has held close the concept of "restorative justice" - that the offender must not only pay a penalty to society as the whole but make some meaningful effort to restore the victim(s) of his crime to some semblance of wholeness as he was before the crime.  While paying the costs of replacing window glass damaged during a vandalism spree covers the expense incurred by the victims, it does nothing to restore their sense of peace and security within their community which the act of vandalism shattered.  Having the perpetrator mow the grass during their term of probation (which was probably the sentence handed down) does little if anything to restore peace and security, as the community sees the perpetrator every time they come to mow the grass and I'll bet he is not all smiles and good cheer about being there.  Were it possible to get the perpetrator to understand how deeply he effected the community, I would be willing to settle for a truely contrite apology and a promise never to do it again.  However, many years of working with and studying criminals leads me to believe that in truth the best "restorative justice" would be for the community to teach the perpetrator what it feels like to have his property, peace and security broken.  Unfortunately, that has too high a probability of turning into a tit-for-tat feud.

**How would you apply "restorative justice" to your past acts?

In closing, I give you full credit for what you have done since 1993, whether or not I agree with the effectiveness or efficiency of your actions.  You are now out there trying to stop another kind of invidious evil, and that is good.

stay safe.

skidmark

PS - I'm sure I speak for several here when I ask "How did you find this thread, and what drove you to defend yourself from my posts (as I am the only one who has taken any significant amount of time to discuss you here)?"

**  edited to add indicated paragraphs.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:15:28 PM by vaskidmark »
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

roo_ster

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2009, 01:28:41 PM »
While I am grateful for all who disentangle themselves from totalitarian ideologies, vaskidmark has a point.

Whittaker Chambers named names and kept records that brought down or brought to justice some of his former communist compatriots.  He did so soon after he left  in an uncorroborated fashion (1939) and later he produced his documentation (1948).

David Horowitz also did his level best to bring down leftist murderers and name names.

OTOH, the fact that the SPLC calls him out and excoriates him by name surely is a point in his favor.

Last, it would be a shame to jump from one utopian ideology to another. 

Regards,

roo_ster

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2009, 01:40:19 PM »
PS - I'm sure I speak for several here when I ask "How did you find this thread, and what drove you to defend yourself from my posts (as I am the only one who has taken any significant amount of time to discuss you here)?"

**  edited to add indicated paragraphs.

I do that pretty often to people that visit my own web site or link to my photos.  Most web sites have software that give you information on who is coming to your site and where they came from.   Or he typed his own name into Google.   =D   If you wanted to be really clever, post a picture from a server you control in your sig.  It can be an invisible picture.  The file request generates lots of interesting information.


Mr. Vanderboegh, I was about ten when the Wall came down.  But I had a chance to visit former communist countries as well as countries that successfully evaded Soviet occupation.  I'm not aware of anything more evil or genocidal in the history of humanity than communism.  Genghis Khan is the only possible comparison, but he ruled with a significantly lighter and more gentle hand than the NKVD or Stasi.  A self avowed former communist who now claims ties to the Three Percenters...  No personal offense intended, sir, but I think most people would be hesitant to be trusting.  Actually, come to think of it, you'd have to be a fool or suicidal not to be hesitant about the entire matter.

More mainstream and conventional 2A supporters have gained significant ground (CCW, Heller, Castle Doctrine, etc) by using rational argument and long hard work.  Slowly, true, but steady.  If I may inquire, what progress has your Three Percent movement made?   
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 01:48:10 PM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2009, 02:00:55 PM »
What Communist activities has Mr. Vanderboergh been involved with back when he was a Communist? What has he actually DONE for Communism? That is the main question that we must answer to determine this whole 'expunging' thing.
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makattak

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2009, 02:13:41 PM »
What Communist activities has Mr. Vanderboergh been involved with back when he was a Communist? What has he actually DONE for Communism? That is the main question that we must answer to determine this whole 'expunging' thing.

I agree. It seems to me he provided material support (secretly) for communist causes.

As he said, no one was killed by his actions. He did, however, break some laws to provide this support.

Now, he is providing material support (publicly) for anti-communist causes. As far as I can tell, he is not breaking laws for those causes.

What more does he, personally, have to atone for? The cause he supported is responsible for all kinds of evil. He himself is not.

Other than giving reparations to the drug dealers he mugged, I cannot see a need for restitution (and I'm not for restitution to those victims, either).
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "You Americans are worse than the French"
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2009, 08:30:42 PM »
Mr. Vanderboegh, if you're still here, would you mind listing as many of the titles from "Herr Doktor's" reading list as you can remember?  You name a few in the blog post, Hayek and Rand and Locke and so forth.  I am curious if there were any other authors or titles that made an impression on you, beyond what you named already.