Shock jock Mancow gets waterboarded and declares it torture.

[Perd Hapley]

So now our CIA and MI are like child molesters and rapists.  At least they're not NAZIs. 

[MechAg94]

So now our CIA and MI are like child molesters and rapists.  At least they're not NAZIs. 

I agree, that is way over the top.  This thread has gone down the deep end. 

[DJJ]

Multiple ways? My internet must be the abridged version.

[roo_ster]

For the most part, rape only causes emotional and psychological damage.  Most molested children show no physical signs of abuse.  Having many ex-girlfriends who suffered either or both, I can tell you that recovery is very difficult, if it happens at all.  Most torture is psychological; cutting off a finger is painful, but it is the thought of the fate of the other nine that elicits a confession.

Not only does that post do as fistful wrote (compare our intel officers to chomos & rapists), but the terrorists are analogous to innocent children. 

There is something profoundly wrong with the logic and/or morality behind that.

I am not sure what the purpose of multiple times for these guys was for though. If you don't get the information within a few visits I would think it would become an ineffective tool as the receiver of the information gathering method would know he is not going to die from it. Do you think you are drowning, no doubt about it. But to think it would still be effective after 100 times is a little far fetched for me. I sometimes wonder if drugs were also used (amnesiacs) so that each session would seem to be the first time.

Good question, but I suspect it was not drugs, just application/continuation of several of the other more vigorous techniques that had failed by themselves.

Also, there were only a "few visits."  The guidelines called for meticulous notes and recording of each and every action taken...which is where you get numbers like "189."  According to the guidelines, 100+ sessions would have taken months or years, as there were hard limits on frequency.


One last thing: why ought I or anyone spend a moment worrying if KSM experiences some long-lasting psychological effects*? 

Were he a run of the mill murderer, he'd end up in prison with others like him.  Prison with such folks is a very stressful place that leaves some psychological trauma, or so I have read.

But, KSM isn't a run of the mill murderer.  He is the very exemplar of an extraordinary murderer, with nearly 3000 lives on his CV.  Arguing that he ought to be given gentler treatment than some redneck/hood rat/whomever who kills in a crime of passion is perverse.



* I very much doubt he will have any.  By all accounts, he was a hard, hard man.  Sure, he talked, but the jihadis have realistic standards when it comes to resisting interrogation.

[De Selby]

scout,

You have identified the reason that this was extreme recklessness poisoned by lawyering:  The administration wanted DOJ lawyers to say it was okay, so they found some who would.  The advice was clearly wrong - had it been scrutinized publicly at the time, John Yoo might already have been disbarred for malpractice.

It's really not up for legal debate.  As a general rule, a prosecutor who takes a case of proven waterboarding to trial cannot fail to get a conviction under that statute.  It's obvious from reading it, and it's obvious from even a few minutes reading cases of torture from the past.

The most those DOJ lawyers are going to get is a lost license to practice, but they exposed America's finest to life jail terms.  What kind of "solid, fearless leadership" is that?

[MicroBalrog]

Not only does that post do as fistful wrote (compare our intel officers to chomos & rapists), but the terrorists are analogous to innocent children.

Are you deliberately missing te previous poster's point? It's not what he said.

[Jamisjockey]