How many on APS have been banned on THR or TFL?

[Seymour Skinner]

For being allegedly pro liberty based websites, the moderators and other staff at THR and TFL are downright bullys.  I was banned from THR some time ago for having a one time PRIVATE and extremely civil disagreement with LAWDOG via an exchange of only two private messages between us.  There's someone else on APS who has in their signature that they were banned from TFL for no reason.  The moderators and staff at THR and TFL have a propensity to have the attitude of "lick my boots or else I'll ban you."  I don't know what they think they are accomplishing with treating fellow citizens/gun owners this way, but I think it's high time somebody dared to talk about it.

Those moderators like to threaten a lot, ban a lot, and reference the "forum rules" a lot but are always extremely vague in what rule they're referencing and exactly how it applies to what they are talking to you about.  Getting a private message from the moderators or staff at EITHER of those forums is tantamount to the proverbial midnight knock on the door by the brownshirts.  You know you're not going to be treated fairly and the only way to keep your membership is to say "yes sir yes sir yes sir."

Now, I've noticed the problem of overbearing, bullyish moderators over there for some time, but what was really the last straw was getting a "warning" about this allegedly "inappropriate" (actually only ugly) picture I posted on TFL that everyone BUT "TheBluesMan" saw the humor in:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/newbie.jpg (I don't recommend this for APS, either. OV)

If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.

These type of "moderators" (who frequently have little moderation because they don't have to) are why I've begun to notice that "pro gun" doesn't necessarily mean pro liberty.

The biggest problem, is these so called "moderators" have NO accountability whatsoever.  Administrators also tend to take everything they say as pure gospel, because of course, regular members are ALWAYS in the wrong about everything.

Really what this post is about is power without accountability equals tyranny.  Actually a better way to put it is the famous quote that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Here is the incredibly vague and factually incorrect message I recieved about the above pic:

"I have removed the photograph of the naked man you posted in General Discussion in this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190238

It seems like you enjoy pushing the edge of the envelope with some of your posts. Please take a moment or two to re-read the forum rules you agreed to when you joined. Remember, this is a family-friendly forum."

I responded by asking for specifics instead of vague statements like "pushing the envelope" (I probably won't get a specific response, only something to the effect of "If you don't like it then leave").  I asked him if the side view of an ugly guy (which by the way even the freaking FCC wouldn't have a problem with!!!) is pornography now .

I learned with "LAWDOG" that even so much as RESPONDING to the private message from a "moderator" if you disagree with them in any way is dangerous and could result in a LIFETIME banning with no recourse, no mercy, no justice, no common sense.  If I had been banned from THR for say 24 hours, it still would not have been just, or even remotely fitting the "crime," but hell, at least it would have come and gone.

Before somebody predictably says "go start your own forum then" (real gutsy statement BTW) I actually started two quite sometime ago, and bought the domain for one of them.  One I created because it's predecessor had disappeared from the net and the other was a direct result of being sick to death with nazis and other bullys that masquerade as "moderators."

[brimic]

Their sandbox, they make the rules. If you can't abide, find your own sandbox to play in. Pretty simple if you ask me.

[Seymour Skinner]

Their sandbox, they make the rules. If you can't abide, find your own sandbox to play in. Pretty simple if you ask me.

I twice predicted in my post that someone would come along and make that easy and super gutless statement.  Why do people respond to things they haven't read?

I will repeat:

If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.

and here:

Before somebody predictably says "go start your own forum then" (real gutsy statement BTW)...

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

MPA, you tend to be inflammatory and looking to stir up controversy with many if not most of your posts.

I don't necessarily DISagree with some of your posts; it's just that, well, other people pay the ticket to ride on these forums.  There is a level of politeness that needs to be adhered to, when you're playing in someone else's playground.

There ARE forums/fora that won't moderate us much at all.  Some of them are a total PITA.  AR15 comes to mind; if you like that kind of chaotic chat, go for it.
Decorum is maintained by disallowing certain behavior.  
I don't always LIKE it, either.
But I want to stay and play in their playground, so I adhere to the rules.

You make your own choice as to whether that's the route you want to travel.
Fig -does not play well with others- nozzle

[BryanP]

The moderators and staff at THR and TFL have a propensity to have the attitude of "lick my boots or else I'll ban you."

No, they have an attitude of "abide by the rules to which you agreed when you signed up to post in a privately owned and operated forum.

Do I always agree with the decisions of the moderators?  No.  I don't.  I can think of one rather egregious case in which I strongly disagree with their final decision.  However, that doesn't change the fact that the decision is theirs to make, not mine.

This has nothing to do with liberty or lack thereof.  This has to do with abiding by the rules of the house.  If I let you into my house as a guest and you start acting in what I consider to be an unacceptable manner I am perfectly free to ask you to stop.  If you don't I am within my rights to boot your butt out of my home.   It's the same situation.

[Seymour Skinner]

Oh for pete's sake, what new microsoft program did you use to read my mind and assume that I am somehow anti "politeness" or anti "decorum" Felonious ?

MPA, you tend to be inflammatory and looking to stir up controversy with many if not most of your posts.

And that is bad/evil/destructive HOW?  Avoiding controversy is how most of the public lives their lives, which is why they only read Harry Potter books and watch Star Wars or Desperate Housewives.  That is why a GREAT many bush supporters only want to hang around other bush supporters.

[charby]

where is my MPA Voodoo Doll..

[Seymour Skinner]

where is my MPA Voodoo Doll..

Yes the messenger is the bad guy.

[Sindawe]

For being allegedly pro liberty based websites, the moderators and other staff at THR and TFL are downright bullys.

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAH  What the heck have you been smoking MA?  And why are you not sharing it with us?

Nothing wrong with stirring up controversy, but there are ways to do so that get folks talking without getting yourself banned.  I and others have done so in THR (and 'prolly TFL, but I don't post there much) and have yet to be banned.  I've even disagreed with others on THR, sometime quite vehemently and I'm still there.  

If all you have to say about this is "if you don't like it then leave" type of nonsense (people that say easy things like that always come out of the woodwork and are a dime a dozen), don't bother because I'm looking for a serious discussion.

Translation: Agree with me or say things I want to hear, or I'll stick my fingers in my ears and sing LALALALALALALLALALALALALALA

[Seymour Skinner]

No, they have an attitude of "abide by the rules to which you agreed when you signed up to post in a privately owned and operated forum.

Do I always agree with the decisions of the moderators?  No.  I don't.  I can think of one rather egregious case in which I strongly disagree with their final decision.  However, that doesn't change the fact that the decision is theirs to make, not mine.

This has nothing to do with liberty or lack thereof.  This has to do with abiding by the rules of the house.  If I let you into my house as a guest and you start acting in what I consider to be an unacceptable manner I am perfectly free to ask you to stop.  If you don't I am within my rights to boot your butt out of my home.   It's the same situation.

This is a vast improvement from the "go somewhere else then" mindless posts so far, but I don't think you read my initial post.  I was VERY SPECIFIC and clear about how the moderators HIDE behind the "rules," but at least in my experience, are NEVER specific about which rule was violated and exactly how it was violated.  What's even worse is this varies like crazy from moderator to moderator.  This wouldn't be an issue if there was some sort of appeals process or jeez some moderation for moderators that CLEARLY abuse their power, but there isn't anything of the sort.

I think it's interesting that several of you are aware of the injustice and total lack of accountability OR EVEN RECOURSE, yet keep implying that I am somehow anti rules or some nonsense.

Just because I'm daring to talk about the elephant in the room doesn't make ME the bad guy.

People can sit and make "it's their house" analogies all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that the things I'm talking about have a very negative impact on TFL and THR (and the already fractured pro gun movement) and are worth discussing.

[cordex]

MPA,
I don't always agree with all moderator decisions either.  I'm especially uncomfortable with the lifetime ban as the only solution to someone who is making trouble.

Without knowing the whole story about you and LawDog, I can't make a judgement there, but I've always found him to be a very reasonable chap.

Can't say I blame TheBluesMan for deleting the image of the naked, fat man.  I wouldn't want someone posting that on my forum either.

Making comparisons to Nazis is rediculous.  Much as you hate to hear it, these forums are private property.  I've got my own forum, and I pay all server costs, domain costs and handle all the programming and server updates myself.  Freedom minded as I am, if you went on there and posted that picture I'd remove it and warn you myself.

I advocate freedom from governmental intervention.  Other freedom will be handled by the market as people vote with their feet.

What do you propose as the solution, MasterpieceArms?  I mean, other than "start your own forum" or "find a forum that allows the kind of content you enjoy" which is apparently not something you want to hear.  Do you advocate seizure of forum control from the paid owners?

[Paddy]

It's entirely up to moderators to guide the forum in the direction they and the administrator(s) want it to go.  That may not be in agreement with all of the participant members, who must then decide, individually, if, on balance, their continued participation is worth it to them.  That's really all there is to it.

If your mutual fund isn't investing in the exact stocks you want, can you demand that they follow your desires?

[Declaration Day]

This is a private forum, and the rules of the owner and moderators apply.  As BryanP said above, it's no different than expecting guests in my home to follow my rules.

Nonetheless, MPA, I don't totally disagree with you.  While I have not personally butted heads with any of the moderators here or on THR, I have noticed that some of them do not adhere to the standards of conduct they are appointed to uphold.

[Seymour Skinner]

Cordex, let me say I very much appreciate the sincerity of your post (in very short supply in a topic like this).  

Do you advocate seizure of forum control from the paid owners?

I have not so much as implied anything of the sort.  All I am doing with this topic is discussing something that I believe virtually never gets discussed because of fear of bannings.

Freedom minded as I am, if you went on there and posted that picture I'd remove it and warn you myself.

I honestly would like to know why.  It's not even close to pornographic.  I've seen things said and shown during "family shows" during the "family hour" on the FCC's television bandwidth that are actually bad.

[Seymour Skinner]

This is a private forum, and the rules of the owner and moderators apply.  As BryanP said above, it's no different than expecting guests in my home to follow my rules.

I guess I will just keep repeating until it sticks that I AM NOT ANTI RULES!  I AM NOT ANTI DECORUM!  Of course we want people in our homes to follow our rules, but if someone violates some house rule of yours, do you immediately get parental, arrogant, and vague with them, or do maintain POLITENESS YOURSELF?  Of course, you would try to maintain goodwill unless the situation was quite egregious.  You wouldn't immediately grab a guest and physically throw them out if they didn't put a drink on a coaster would you?  You wouldn't put up with merciless treatment from a supposed friend if you were the 'offender' would you?

Nonetheless, MPA, I don't totally disagree with you.  While I have not personally butted heads with any of the moderators here or on THR, I have noticed that some of them do not adhere to the standards of conduct they are appointed to uphold.

A-M-E-N to the last half of that sentence!!!  :hands clapping:  What really is incredible to behold is that administrators utterly refuse to moderate the moderators in those situations.

[Declaration Day]

I guess I will just keep repeating until it sticks that I AM NOT ANTI RULES!

Actually MPA, I took my time composing my post, and as a result, did not get a chance to view everyone else's comments (which appeared in the interim) before posting it.  I did not intend to beat a dead horse.

[Seymour Skinner]

Fair 'nuf.  BTW, I have tons of respect for someone who will go to the trouble of making a clarification post like that.

[Declaration Day]

Fair 'nuf.  BTW, I have tons of respect for someone who will go to the trouble of making a clarification post like that.

Thank you.  Though I have yet to have any personal problems with moderators, I have had conflicts with other members about politeness, and about stating a position without attempting to make others feel stupid.

[Gewehr98]

I wouldn't want that exceptionally distasteful picture on my family-oriented forum, either - especially if you posted it on a forum I was paying for to keep online.  You wouldn't appreciate if I sent a Ten-Ton Tillie image to your home fax machine, would you? (Actually, I shouldn't presuppose anything, your boundaries of decency appear to be way out there)

So what is the problem, really, MPA?

Are you just pissed because you were banned there, so you need to vent at folks who still have access?  

After you've vented and bad-mouthed those folks behind their backs (class act, there!), some of whom I've met, locked horns with on occasion, and now consider friends, what will that do for you, make you write less inflammatory threads? Something makes me doubt that, because I've been watching your threads from Day 1.  You play the game like the Thrill Seeker segment of Kentucky Fried Movie, stirring up crap and generally pissing people off under the weak premise of forcing people to think outside the box. Now you wonder why your online presence was terminated?  I do indeed want some of the same stuff you're smoking. You aren't the only swinging d*@k that thinks outside the box on this planet, btw.  

Do you think TFL and THR really give a rat's patootie about what you think of their forum and moderators after you've been booted there?  If you do, the clue bird doesn't come to your house very often.

Again, if you want a public forum where you can play coy games with moderators and screw with other people, start one.  Nobody's stopping you.  Hell, I'll encourage you, who needs decorum, anyway?  If you need a template, there's always DemocraticUnderground, DailyKos, AR15.com,  pirate4x4, and the like. Sorry that's not the answer you like, but I just don't see the summary execution of the owners and moderators of TFL and THR, and the raping and pillaging of their surviving families, as a plausible solution to the MasterPieceArms problem.

There is no elephant in the room, giving THR and TFL a bad name in the pro-gun world.  As a matter of fact, both TFL and THR are one of the most successful and highly-respected online gun forums that ever were.

There was, however, something that smelled bad, and was causing a foul stench before the moderators at both forums took action and removed the striped vermin from the premises.  How they chose to do that is quite literally their business, but they took care of the problem.  You weren't injured, maimed, or killed. Your chastity wasn't violated, nor were you taken advantage of.  Your virtue was untouched, and what honor you showed up with left with you, along with your nasty pictures.  You were simply banned from an online forum.  You'll live, trust me.

[cordex]

I honestly would like to know why.  It's not even close to pornographic.  I've seen things said and shown during "family shows" during the "family hour" on the FCC's television bandwidth that are actually bad.

It doesn't have to do with it being pornographic; it is simply in exceptionally poor taste.
As for the FCC allowing worse, I could care less.  What some beancounter in the FCC thinks fits their minimum standards and what I would be comfortable with being posted on my website have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  The FCC doesn't regulate my forum, I do, and that image is certainly well below my minimum standards.

There are some broadcast TV shows I don't watch, as well.

[Seymour Skinner]

Again, if you want a public forum where you can play coy games with moderators and screw with other people, start one.  Nobody's stopping you.

People who don't read before they post...priceless.  

Do you think TFL and THR really give a rat's patootie about what you think of their forum and moderators after you've been booted there?

Ahh, a world where people read what a person has said before they attack him.  As far as I know I haven't been bannd from TFL, just THR.

After you've vented and bad-mouthed those folks behind their backs (class act, there!)

About as classy as misrepresenting what I've said.  By the way, if speaking the truth about what certain moderators actually did is "badmouthing" to you, you're amazing.  THE REASON I have to speak about "LAWDOG" behind his back, is because when he banned me for merely having a private disagreement with him, I couln't get into the site to SO MUCH AS ASK HIM WHY THE HELL HE BANNED ME (not that a person like that can be reasoned with anyway).

Hell, I'll encourage you, who needs decorum, anyway?

Yea that's what I said, that I hate and despise decorum.  

...but I just don't see the summary execution of the owners and moderators of TFL and THR, and the raping and pillaging of their surviving families, as a plausible solution to the MasterPieceArms problem.

That is exactly what I'm advocating.  Did you read more than 1% of this thread before you posted?

it is simply in exceptionally poor taste

that exceptionally distasteful picture

And since everyone's "taste" is exactly the same that's not vague at all.  This thread is about moderators at two sister forums who will ban or beat you over the head in the name of the "rules" (without mentioning any specific rules) when the rules say that what is off limits is pornographic and obscene pictures.  No one would be stupid enough (probably) to make a forum rule where "taste" was the governing standard.

[Gewehr98]

People who don't read before they post...priceless.

Oh, I read your whining and calling people gutless earlier, trust me. I got a good laugh out of a faceless screen name on the internet hiding behind an IP address calling people gutless.  I chose to ignore that, much like folks on THR and TFL chose to ignore your posts. I mean, really, who could not avoid the mental picture of you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALA".  Tell you what, I'll give you my home address, and you can call me gutless to my face, how's that?  I need some entertainment after my recent paid vacation time in the Green Zone, so you can be first at bat.  

Back to the topic at hand - the truth hurts. You got kicked out of somebody else's privately owned forum, and now you're pissed off about it, to the point of going onto a sister forum, owned by the same guy, and badmouthing those same people.  Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo.

[Seymour Skinner]

Tell you what, I'll give you my home address, and you can call me gutless to my face, how's that?  I need some entertainment after my recent paid vacation time in the Green Zone, so you can be first at bat.

Challenging someone you disagree with to a fist fight instead of addressing what they actually said, is, as you like to say "Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo"  

If violence is the only way you can "resolve" things, I feel sorry for you.

[cordex]

And since everyone's "taste" is exactly the same that's not vague at all.

You don't find that picture distasteful?
Not everyone's idea of what is "pornographic" is identical either, but that is sometimes used as a rule.

This thread is about moderators at two sister forums who will ban or beat you over the head in the name of the "rules" (without mentioning any specific rules) when the rules say that what is off limits is pornographic and obscene pictures.

I'd say that falls under most people's definition of "obscene" pretty easily, but when it comes to TFL I betcha they could throw Rule #2 at you.
2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.
Just replace Language with Content.  Would you whip out that picture if you were in the "polite company of strangers" for a laugh?

No one would be stupid enough (probably) to make a forum rule where "taste" was the governing standard.

4) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership.

[Gewehr98]

Challenging someone you disagree with to a fist fight instead of addressing what they actually said, is, as you like to say "Nice touch, and again, a class act. Bravo"

Who said anything about a fist fight?  I simply invited you to come out from behind the IP address mask and call me gutless to my face.  You brought up the fist fight.  I just want to see how much intestinal fortitude you really have, sice the "gutless" comments come so fast and free...