AIG Steps on Crank....Hard.

[Scout26]

>facepalm<

http://finance.yahoo.com/insurance/article/107188/aig-balks-at-Claims-from-jet-ditching-in-hudson

A.I.G. Balks at Claims From Jet Ditching in Hudson
by Mary Williams Walsh
Friday, June 12, 2009
New York Times

For the first couple of days after his flight ditched into the Hudson River, Paul Jorgenson was just glad to be alive. But then he started to need his laptop, his wallet, his car keys -- all the essentials he had stowed under his seat and left behind in the sinking plane.

A pleasant woman at US Airways told him not to worry; he would be made whole for his losses. But then the matter shifted to US Airways' insurer, the American International Group, operating under government stewardship since its bailout last fall.

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"Everything went downhill," said Mr. Jorgenson, a software executive in Charlotte, N.C., whose laptop and keys have not been recovered.

When a homeowner has a burglary or a driver has a crash, all it normally takes is a call to the insurance company and a description of the loss to activate the policy. But aviation liability insurance is different. It is activated by a finding of negligence on the part of an airline. If there is no negligence, then arguably there is no liability, and no obligation to pay claims.

That poses a problem for the passengers of US Airways Flight 1549. They suffered real losses and injuries, but they are widely perceived as having been saved from sudden, violent death by their heroic and quick-thinking flight crew, led by Capt. Chesley B. Sullenberger.

"Insurance companies try to protect their assets, obviously," said Bruce D. Chadbourne, a co-author of the book, "Introduction to Aviation Insurance and Risk Management," and a professor in the business school at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla. With the airline wearing a halo, A.I.G. "is going to play hardball."

A spokeswoman for A.I.G.'s property and casualty business declined to comment.

"I wish I had a hammer to get them to do the right thing," said Andrew J. Maloney, a partner in the New York firm of Kreindler & Kreindler, which specializes in aviation litigation. He is representing some of the US Airways passengers but has not filed any lawsuits. "They're riding a wave of feel-good opinion about how well the flight crew handled the bird strike."

A spokesman for US Airways, Morgan Durrant, said the airline issued each passenger a check for $5,000 shortly after the accident to cover their immediate needs; it had no legal obligation to do so. He declined to discuss the airline's liability insurance policy or claims processes, saying the matter was pending and he did not want to jeopardize it.

Those familiar with industry practices said it would be many months before the issue of liability was resolved.

Tess Sosa, who was aboard Flight 1549 with her husband, 4-year-old daughter and infant son, said she suffered a mild concussion during the landing, and her husband was treated for a leg injury and hypothermia. The family, from New York, continues to get hospital bills, she said. But her top priority was getting the insurer to pay for therapy to reduce the risk of post-traumatic stress disorder for her and her daughter.

Because the plane was full on the day of the accident, she and her baby were seated near the wings, while her husband and daughter were far in the rear. The plane struck the water tail-first, and water began pouring in where Mr. Sosa and daughter Sophia were sitting.

Ms. Sosa, clambering over seats toward the front of the plane with her son in her arms, looked back and caught a horrifying glimpse of her husband standing in the deepening water, trying to hold their daughter above the surface.

"I can tell you, he was looking straight at me and he didn't even see me," she said. Since then she has been haunted by the image, and the feeling that in her escape she abandoned her husband and daughter.

Ms. Sosa said Sophia "remembers everything. I just want her to walk away from this knowing that we did everything we could to make it make sense." A.I.G. agents have told her that for therapy she should use her own health insurance, but it has a $3,000 deductible for mental health care.

"Why should we be paying out of pocket?" she said. "That's why they're there. They're the insurer."

Aviation insurance specialists said that an airline's liability insurer is not normally there for medical bills after a plane crash. Passengers' health insurance may indeed pay first -- for passengers who have it -- or workers' compensation for passengers traveling on business. Later, if liability is established, those insurers circle back and try to get reimbursed from the airline's liability insurer.

But that does not help accident survivors who have expenses in the meantime.

A.I.G. has told Ms. Sosa and other passengers that it would pay for therapy, but only for three sessions.

"It's like telling me, 'We aren't responsible for this. This is your trauma. You deal with it,' " Ms. Sosa said.

In one exasperated conversation with an A.I.G. claims official, she invoked the taxpayer bailout, saying she doubted Congress and the Obama administration would approve of the stonewalling. The official "told me their division didn't get a cent from the bailout," she said.

Mr. Jorgenson, the software executive, said he did not have unpaid medical bills, but was frustrated about his claims for missing possessions. He sells specialized software to hedge funds and other investment companies, and must travel frequently to financial centers, wearing expensive suits and shoes, and carrying valuable computer equipment. He recently got some of his clothing back from the airline but the shoes were ruined, he said. One suit was missing its jacket, and his cufflinks and sunglasses are still gone. He got his wallet back but not the cash it held, he said.

Because he could document losses of more than $5,000, A.I.G. sent him a second $5,000, with a letter saying he could get an additional $10,000 if he signed a statement releasing it from any further claims. Other passengers are also being asked to sign the release in exchange for $10,000.

Mr. Jorgenson said he thought this was disingenuous, because some degree of liability might eventually be established. Then A.I.G.'s policy would be in play, but the passengers would have signed away their claims.

Mr. Chadbourne said he was not surprised to see A.I.G. holding firm.

"They really cannot row their own boat, totally, because they've got other people that they are making decisions for," he said, explaining that an aviation liability policy typically spreads the risks among 8 or 10 insurers, with one lead underwriter -- in this case A.I.G. -- handling claims on behalf of the group. (Although A.I.G. is not the lead underwriter on the missing Air France flight, it is part of an insurance pool with potential liability.)

"Even though they're giving the passengers a hard time, eventually they will be compensated to some extent," he said. "There's no big pot because there's no death. But there's still mental distress, and it is a compensatable illness which, eventually, in my opinion, they deserve. They went through hell."

The cost to them in public illwill will cost them more in the long term then what they'd pay.

[AZRedhawk44]

For the first couple of days after his flight ditched into the Hudson River, Paul Jorgenson was just glad to be alive. But then he started to need his laptop, his wallet, his car keys -- all the essentials he had stowed under his seat and left behind in the sinking plane.

He's just fine by:

A spokesman for US Airways, Morgan Durrant, said the airline issued each passenger a check for $5,000 shortly after the accident to cover their immediate needs; it had no legal obligation to do so. He declined to discuss the airline's liability insurance policy or claims processes, saying the matter was pending and he did not want to jeopardize it.

These people, on the other hand:

Tess Sosa, who was aboard Flight 1549 with her husband, 4-year-old daughter and infant son, said she suffered a mild concussion during the landing, and her husband was treated for a leg injury and hypothermia. The family, from New York, continues to get hospital bills, she said. But her top priority was getting the insurer to pay for therapy to reduce the risk of post-traumatic stress disorder for her and her daughter.

Need to realize:  Life sucks, get a helmet. (Shamelessly stolen from Dennis Leary).

They got $5K.  I doubt the hospital bills were that big for a minor leg injury and hypothermia.  As far as the psychobabble.... bad things happen.  To all sorts of people.  God sent some birds into the path of the plane and it went down.  Be happy you're breathing and able to whine about needing psychobabble.  You need therapy because of your outlook on life:  Who's gonna pay me for my trauma and suffering! Rather than Thank God I'm alive and that our pilots were able to save us all from a freak incident like that!

I'm sure that the remainder of the $5K can take care of their need for psychobabble.  I guess that means the iPods, cell phones, purse clutter and the rest will just have to be replaced with your own money.

Again:  Life sucks.  Get a helmet.  No fault and no catastrophic loss of life = no liability = no insurance payout.

ETA:  Each PASSENGER got $5K.  That means the whiny family got at least $20K.  They're just fine.  Helmets are $25 each.

[BridgeRunner]

Y'know, as much as I am bothered by the lack of mental health care access in this country, and as seriously as I take PTSD, my sympathy is really with the airline.

I don't understand why these people think they should get paid for this.  You don't automatically get your expenses paid for someone else.  No liability=no payment. 

And yeah, seriously, even just the 5k the woman got for herself will cover about 75 visits with a social worker or counselor, and 28 or so with psychiatrist.  Psychologist is somewhere in the middle.  That is generally way more than enough to help someone get the tools needed to cope with the aftermath of one brief trauma like this.

[MicroBalrog]

There are people whose first thought at a disaster is FREE MONEY.

This goes to the point that in Israel, we had the phenomenon of people approaching the sites of bus bombings to rub themselves against the smoking wreckages, so they could claim to be covered in soot from the bombing and demand compensation from .gov.il.

I joke not.

[BridgeRunner]

There are people whose first thought at a disaster is FREE MONEY.

This goes to the point that in Israel, we had the phenomenon of people approaching the sites of bus bombings to rub themselves against the smoking wreckages, so they could claim to be covered in soot from the bombing and demand compensation from .gov.il.

I joke not.

Ok, that is officially the most f-ed up thing I have heard all week.

[MicroBalrog]

It is to be understood that I do not have any problem with people ACTUALLY injured or suffering from stress due to the bombings, shellings, and other crap getting compensation.

I do however start being bothered when newspapers publish very thinly-veiled guides on how to fake PTSD for getting compensation ["We're not suggesting you should fake it, but if you're applying for compensation, these are the symptoms that get you money..."] or, as mentioned, when people swarm the smoldering wreckage of buses for money.

[Perd Hapley]

There are people whose first thought at a disaster is FREE MONEY.

A guy I know specifically told me that he thought that way.  A great guy, really; hard-working, self-motivated, and so on, loves his kids.  But that's just how he thinks. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yup.  "I survived something unpleasant, therefore somebody needs to pay me."

Just wait.  Obama will step up and give them the money they so rightfully deserve.

[Monkeyleg]

Does that mean that we all get free money if we survive Obama's presidency?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If you're lucky maybe you'll get to keep some of your own money.  Maybe.

Does that count?

[Hawkmoon]

So, like, we're talkin' liability insurance here, right? As in the party at fault (or their insurance company) should pay up?

So which insurance company had the birds' flock policy? Why aren't "the media" going after them?

I'm disgusted. I was in a small plane "incident" once. I was on a "corporate errand," shall we say, and the client's corporate plane was heading back home at the time I was scheduled to, so they kindly suggested I cancel my commercial reservation and ride home in the right seat of a twin-engine turboprop. Cool.

Until about 10 minutes after take-off, when the pilot started making funny faces at the gauges, then he turned the plane around and shut off one of the two engines. He called in a Mayday, we got priority clearance to land, and he executed a perfect landing and we rolled back to the hanger area. He was pretty cool about it -- except that he couldn't get out of the plane for ten minutes because his legs were shaking so badly from delayed nervous reaction. I had no idea how just serious it really was to lose one of the two engines. Apparently, it is considered somewhat of a B-I-G D-E-A-L.

So these mental midgets are on a MUCH larger aircraft, that lost BOTh engines, and the pilot brought them down to a nice, safe, albeit somewhat damp landing. Nobody died. And this dude has the nerve to complain that his shoes got wet? It is obvious that the United States is no longer the same country that saved civilization from the Nazi scourge.

[Boomhauer]

My father had two inflight fires back when he was flying our Cessna 182. Both times he shut off the fuel, deadsticked into the airport and discharged the fire extinguisher into the cowling. Who should he sue for mental anguish? Himself?

Personally, I'd be thrilled to survive a ditching in any aircraft, and getting a $5K check would be gravy.

These passengers that want to sue will find my sympathy in the dictionary between *expletive deleted*it and syphilis.

[Uncle Bubba]

A guy I know specifically told me that he thought that way.  A great guy, really; hard-working, self-motivated, and so on, loves his kids.  But that's just how he thinks. 

Proof again, as if it were needed, that no matter how together some people appear to have it, they can still be completely ate up with the dumbass.

[Uncle Bubba]

So, like, we're talkin' liability insurance here, right? As in the party at fault (or their insurance company) should pay up?

So which insurance company had the birds' flock policy? Why aren't "the media" going after them?

I'm disgusted. I was in a small plane "incident" once. I was on a "corporate errand," shall we say, and the client's corporate plane was heading back home at the time I was scheduled to, so they kindly suggested I cancel my commercial reservation and ride home in the right seat of a twin-engine turboprop. Cool.

Until about 10 minutes after take-off, when the pilot started making funny faces at the gauges, then he turned the plane around and shut off one of the two engines. He called in a Mayday, we got priority clearance to land, and he executed a perfect landing and we rolled back to the hanger area. He was pretty cool about it -- except that he couldn't get out of the plane for ten minutes because his legs were shaking so badly from delayed nervous reaction. I had no idea how just serious it really was to lose one of the two engines. Apparently, it is considered somewhat of a B-I-G D-E-A-L.

So these mental midgets are on a MUCH larger aircraft, that lost BOTh engines, and the pilot brought them down to a nice, safe, albeit somewhat damp landing. Nobody died. And this dude has the nerve to complain that his shoes got wet? It is obvious that the United States is no longer the same country that saved civilization from the Nazi scourge.

Well said.

[K Frame]

In many major cities, when I bus is in an accident, one of the driver's first responsibilities after making sure of the condition of the passengers is to secure the bus so that no other people can get on and claim to have been passengers who were injured in the wreck.

Some years ago several people were prosecuted in DC for attempting to make claims against metro when, after observing a bus/car accident, they stormed the bus and claimed to have been passengers injured in the accident.

[De Selby]

Emergency room bills for three people can easily exceed 15,000 for routine care and exams. 

But yeah, in this case, the folks who suffered any monetary loss or need for medical care should be compensated in full.  You pay for a flight ticket expecting...a flight.  Not to be heroically landed in a river, and then told to be grateful that you made it out of that flight alive.

Weeding out phoney claims is not a special hardship.  I feel no special sympathy that AIG might have to do it just like the rest of us who drive or are responsible for premises.

[MillCreek]

In many major cities, when I bus is in an accident, one of the driver's first responsibilities after making sure of the condition of the passengers is to secure the bus so that no other people can get on and claim to have been passengers who were injured in the wreck.

Some years ago several people were prosecuted in DC for attempting to make claims against metro when, after observing a bus/car accident, they stormed the bus and claimed to have been passengers injured in the accident.

I have seen video footage of this from hidden cameras on the buses.  The film shows people literally swarming onto the bus and flinging themselves into the seats, and then starting to moan and twitch.  It would have been a hilarious parody if it wasn't absolutely accurate in depicting the events.

[CNYCacher]

But yeah, in this case, the folks who suffered any monetary loss or need for medical care should be compensated in full.  You pay for a flight ticket expecting...a flight.  Not to be heroically landed in a river, and then told to be grateful that you made it out of that flight alive.

I agree that they should sue the birds.

[De Selby]

I agree that they should sue the birds.

Blaming the birds is fine, but it doesn't settle the question of who should pay for the damage.

Who's in the best position to insure and guard against bird strikes on aircraft? Passengers, or airlines?  That's the question that should determine who has the responsibility to pay the damages (and consequently who will take out insurance to cover the situation.)

[S. Williamson]

Blaming the birds is fine, but it doesn't settle the question of who should pay for the damage.

Who's in the best position to insure and guard against bird strikes on aircraft? Passengers, or airlines?  That's the question that should determine who has the responsibility to pay the damages (and consequently who will take out insurance to cover the situation.)

The passengers, duh.  They should've rolled down the windows and shooed them away. 

[dogmush]

Bird Strikes are an act of God, sue him.

Seriously though, sometimes Stuff Happens. And nobodies liable, because it's just a freak happenstance.  Yeah it sucks, but so do lightning strikes, shark attacks, mudslides, hurricanes and many other events that can't be predicted or controled.

[Iain]

Bird Strikes are an act of God, sue him.

Seriously though, sometimes Stuff Happens. And nobodies liable, because it's just a freak happenstance.  Yeah it sucks, but so do lightning strikes, shark attacks, mudslides, hurricanes and many other events that can't be predicted or controled.

So there is no insurance for acts of god?

[dogmush]

So there is no insurance for acts of god?

Sure there is.  Hurricane and Sinkhole insurance come to mind (can you tell I live in FL?).  Liability insurance ain't it though.  There's probably some small market that could be filled selling "no fault of the airline crash insurance" in little kiosks at the airport.  Or travlers could start asking for copies of their carrier's insurance policy, and making airlines decisions based on that info. 

But AIG is the Liability insurer.  They pay damages for event's that are the airlines fault.  Excluding a black box recording that says "lets ram those birds" or a US Airways memo about retiring old airframes by seeding the buildings around the airport with geese, I fail to see how this is the airlines fault.

No Fault=No Liability.  The airline already wen't above and beyond giving everyone $5g's.

Americans need to understand there is no "right" to be "made whole" for every bad event in their life.

[Jamisjockey]

Emergency room bills for three people can easily exceed 15,000 for routine care and exams. 

But yeah, in this case, the folks who suffered any monetary loss or need for medical care should be compensated in full.  You pay for a flight ticket expecting...a flight.  Not to be heroically landed in a river, and then told to be grateful that you made it out of that flight alive.

Weeding out phoney claims is not a special hardship.  I feel no special sympathy that AIG might have to do it just like the rest of us who drive or are responsible for premises.

Okay this isn't good.  I agree with SS for once.  Not good at all.
 
The passengers were under the care of the airline.  The airline or its insurance should pay for the medical treatment of the passengers.  Nothing more, nothing less.
If I hire a taxi, and he hits a deer by no fault of his own, and I'm injured, wouldn't the auto insurance cover my injuries?

[seeker_two]

At least we can all rest easy in the knowledge that the increase in unemployment will have little effect on civil litigation attorneys.....