Author Topic: Utopian  (Read 14054 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 09:06:59 PM »
I think the Brits might look at you kinda funny, and say, "What's a monoarchy?"  :P

Rule by stuffed Spanish monkeys.
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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 09:45:31 PM »
Get your hands off me, you dirty mono!!
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seeker_two

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 10:30:28 PM »
I think the Brits might look at you kinda funny, and say, "What's a monoarchy?"  :P

It's a disease you get by kissing a European socialist....  =D
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2009, 10:40:01 PM »
Oooooh, winner. 
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makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2009, 11:30:20 PM »
I would argue there are also certain emotional differences. More and more I start thinking you can support almost all the libertarian policies and still be a conservative.

I would not disagree with that. I have spent a lot of time with libertarians and aside from their position on abortion, I rarely find myself at odds with them.

This is what frustrates me the most about many of the libertarians (on this board and elsewhere). So many attack conservatives and especially conservative Christians more fiercely than any others.

And yet, Christians and conservatives are most often their closest allies. I am for as small a government as we can possibly have. I believe the federal government ought to be providing national defense and negotiating with foreign powers and very little else. I am for federalism.

I can compromise on things like National Parks that I don't think is an enumerated power of the government, but, so long as they have purchased the land, I have only small problems with that unenumerated power.

However, because I believe a child in the womb deserves life (and think the individual states should protect it), and that marriage should be between a man and a woman (and states should decide whether to recognize other states marriages that contradict that), and I also would rather drugs be illegal (but, again, that's a state's rights issue),  I am enemy number one to many libertarians.

This is one of the reasons I'm fairly certain that, unfortunately, libertarians are destined to remain an inconsequential party: they attack those who should be their closest allies.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2009, 12:36:51 AM »
When I used to get the Constitution Party newsletter, it was a laundry list of every evil deed by Bush, Reagan, et al.  Both parties (Const. and Libtn.) have to convince you that the Republican Party is no better than the Democrats.  That's how they get votes and money, though of course the Libertarians double-dip, by running the same game on Democrats. 
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Balog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2009, 11:08:22 AM »
Mak is pretty much spot on with my beliefs, although I suppose we differ a bit on the War on some drugs, but not others. Just the ones we feel uncomfortable with. Although I'm not all the way to let's sell heroin in the grocery store either, so I think we could probably compromise.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2009, 11:19:59 AM »
I would argue that the issue is not really about the right to life (there are plenty pro-life libertarians) or a given issue. But consider this:

Plenty of libertarians believe in The Man. Not in conspiracy theory, but in the existence of a social and political elite that is in charge – the media, the big corporations, the professional bureaucrats and politicians, pressure groups like the NEA and the retiree's lobby (what's the proper name again?). On this logic, the order of things around us is immoral. It's not just that we'd save money chasing drug users, but that the suffering of drug users and dealers and their families is an act of injustice and oppression. Not just that we oppose gun control, but that the suffering of people who are in prison for having a gun that is too short is immoral.

A Conservative doesn't believe in a Man. In fact, even if the Conservative opposes given policies, it seems that the Conservative respects the 'system' – so even if a given conservative opposes, say, carry licensing, he still thinks that the people punished under the law 'deserve' it because they somehow 'consented' to the penalty by disobeying the law, and the law has been 'passed democratically' after all. The Conservative – even if he supports revolutionary policies  - would never endorse a revolution against The Man, even a peaceful one, because he does not believe there IS a Man.
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makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2009, 12:04:29 PM »
I would argue that the issue is not really about the right to life (there are plenty pro-life libertarians) or a given issue. But consider this:

Plenty of libertarians believe in The Man. Not in conspiracy theory, but in the existence of a social and political elite that is in charge – the media, the big corporations, the professional bureaucrats and politicians, pressure groups like the NEA and the retiree's lobby (what's the proper name again?). On this logic, the order of things around us is immoral. It's not just that we'd save money chasing drug users, but that the suffering of drug users and dealers and their families is an act of injustice and oppression. Not just that we oppose gun control, but that the suffering of people who are in prison for having a gun that is too short is immoral.

A Conservative doesn't believe in a Man. In fact, even if the Conservative opposes given policies, it seems that the Conservative respects the 'system' – so even if a given conservative opposes, say, carry licensing, he still thinks that the people punished under the law 'deserve' it because they somehow 'consented' to the penalty by disobeying the law, and the law has been 'passed democratically' after all. The Conservative – even if he supports revolutionary policies  - would never endorse a revolution against The Man, even a peaceful one, because he does not believe there IS a Man.

Interesting, I don't know that I've ever gotten that impression from the libertarians I have associated with.

Of course, these were economists so they may have been significantly different from the types to which you refer.

Personally, I think the most important means of voting is doing so with your feet.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2009, 04:53:57 PM »
Back to the topic of Liberals as Utopian, I discovered this excellent paragraph from a recovering leftist:

Quote
...I also started waking up.  I realized, to my utter incredulity, that conservatives made sense, and that I was one of them.   I recalled Mark Twain's quip about his father: When Twain was a teenager, he thought his father was the stupidest man in the world; but when he became a young man in his 20's, his father had many intelligent things to say. Twain couldn't believe how much his father had learned in those years! Like Twain, I grew up and saw the world as it is.  Yes it would be nice to save the planet, to eliminate hunger, and to make everyone good and righteous.  But humans don't have the power to do that. To walk around, as I did, with utopian images that didn't match reality was to view life through the eyes of a child.  An adult understands that civility matters, people need to be held accountable for their behavior, and protecting yourself and your country are moral imperatives.

I emphasized the most pertinent parts.

It's an interesting read for understanding the Utopian mindset:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/how_to_deprogram_a_liberal_in.html
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 07:48:55 PM »

A Conservative doesn't believe in a Man. In fact, even if the Conservative opposes given policies, it seems that the Conservative respects the 'system' – so even if a given conservative opposes, say, carry licensing, he still thinks that the people punished under the law 'deserve' it because they somehow 'consented' to the penalty by disobeying the law, and the law has been 'passed democratically' after all. The Conservative – even if he supports revolutionary policies  - would never endorse a revolution against The Man, even a peaceful one, because he does not believe there IS a Man.
That's not quite right.  Conservatives respect the civil society and want their communities to remain orderly.  Revolution is literally uncivilized. 

There are better mechanisms in place in America for reforming the government.  Rejecting those mechanisms in favor of "revolution" is foolish and dangerous, not to mention a gross exhibition of poor citizenship.  Respect your neighbors, don't wreck the community over your own political whims.

Oh, and conservatives don't think that people in jail under unjust laws "deserve it".  However, we do acknowledge that breaking the law often results in prosecution.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2009, 07:55:04 PM »
You're assuming I advocate a violent revolution. Nothing would be further from the truth.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2009, 08:06:37 PM »
You're assuming I advocate a violent revolution. Nothing would be further from the truth.
No, I assumed you meant non-violent revolution.  There's a big difference between revolution, even peaceful revolution, and reform.  Only the latter is worth supporting.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2009, 08:22:53 PM »
Why would revolution not be worth supporting?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

sanglant

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2009, 08:22:54 PM »
Why would revolution not be worth supporting?

its to much work :| :angel:

Jamisjockey

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2009, 07:25:15 AM »
You're assuming I advocate a violent revolution. Nothing would be further from the truth.

You don't think there was already one of those, last November?
JD

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makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2009, 08:51:51 AM »
Why would revolution not be worth supporting?

No, not because it is "too much work", but because "revolutions", even non-violent ones rarely go in a direction towards liberty.

The American revolution is quite unique. Most other revolutions have not ended well.

Bringing about another "revolution" may end up with complete socialism: people prefer order to chaos and even poor economies are better than no economy.

Instead, since we already have an amazing framework created in this country, it is better to work within that framework. It is slow progress and that is by design. Just as this slide towards socialism did not occur overnight, neither will progress towards greater liberty. I don't want to be able to quickly change this country because then my opponents can do the same.

I will modify the famous quote (often attributed to Benjamin Franklin):

Those who would give up necessary restraints on government for a momentary gain in liberty deserve neither liberty nor limited government.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2009, 01:25:22 PM »
Why do people assume that by "revolution" I am talking about some magical military engagement, in which Loyal Heroes will Charge the BArricades, bayonet the Agents of the States, Set Everything on Fire, and enact Liberty In Our Lifetime at bayonet-point?

How many times do I need to repeat this is not the case?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2009, 01:32:34 PM »
No one is assuming that. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they misunderstand your ideas.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2009, 01:36:25 PM »
Why do people assume that by "revolution" I am talking about some magical military engagement, in which Loyal Heroes will Charge the BArricades, bayonet the Agents of the States, Set Everything on Fire, and enact Liberty In Our Lifetime at bayonet-point?

How many times do I need to repeat this is not the case?

I made no assumption that you wanted violent revolution.

However, to advocate "revolution" means you want to quickly change the state in which we exist now into a state you prefer which is vastly different.

I do not want that power. I have no idea how you intend to achieve your peaceful revolution, but to have the ability to swiftly remake a society means your opponent will have that ability as well. I am concerned with far more than simply my own liberty, but that of those who follow as well.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2009, 02:41:17 PM »
The problem with your perception of events is double:

1.For one, the Constitution (and modern American law) is equipped with various tools that do allow for rapid change. Judicial impeachment, independence of the three branches of government, the unified executive, and the pardon power are all useful here.

But more importantly, you are operating on the premise that there is some 'power' to a revolution that is issued to someone, somewhere, by some document. The truth is that a revolution – peaceful or otherwise – is a power that cannot be takn away. Once enough people want a revolution, it happens. Now, the number of people needed is lower in the US than it is in, say, North Korea, for obvious reasons such as the availability of free speech.

The Founding Fathers understood that the US government may one day become tyrannical, and they explicitly installed moral approval of changing the system of government when that happens. It's there in their writings, and in the DoI in particular.

Once a critical mass of people is dedicated to a revolution and equipped with competent leadership, the revolution tends to happen. It's difficult for me to understand how it is possible for people NOT to have that power.

2.Suppose you were unjustly imprisoned. Surely you would want to be freed today. You would not want whatever political movement which favored freeing you to dawdle for forty, fifty years as they enacted moderate reform, right?

In the Eugeny Shwartz rendition of “Don Quixote”, Don Quixote is woken up at night hearing the “Voices of the Unjustly Punished”. They repeat merely: “We are the Unjustly Imprisoned. Do you hear, good knight? You are free, we're in chains! You're free, we're in chains!”

There are literally thousands of people imprisoned under various laws which libertarians (and some conservatives) consider unjust. This thread is not the proper place to debate these laws, but here's my point: from a libertarian point of view, objective morality exists. The suffering of these people is an act of injustice going on every single day.

From a libertarian point of view, no-knock warrants, drug enforcement, and so on, is an act of constant injustice, the same as slavery was. The various laws enabling the state to apply fines, arrests, and imprisonment to activities from 'not wearing a helmet' to 'having a gun barrel an inch too short', or prohibiting people from selling and buying certain items, are an injustice. (And let's not forget there the thousands of options we'd have if society was freer that we're not even aware of.).

Every single day that goes on, a person goes to prison for some violation of these statutes, or dies because the development of a cure was held up by some FDA regulation, or maybe gets his home or car confiscated under forfeiture laws. Or maybe they just ruin his life with a conviction and let him go.

And I'm not even talking about stuff that happens in countries less fortunate than America (though I think the problem is with the entire Western world).

If I lived in America today, I'd be pretty much free to do the things I personally want to do with my life, (apart from owning machineguns*). I'm not a big fan of the forbidden pleasures. But there are people out there who are really suffering, who really need help.

The libertarian concept is tied intrinsically to the idea that objective morality exists. If an immoral status-quo, an oppressive status-quo exists – like it did with slavery, the solution is not to try to deal with it over a course of seventy years. Thousands of innocents people will live out their lives in prisons, or be shot in police raids, or have their lives otherwise destroyed or limited by the State by the time you're done.

If, within my lifetime, I will help free one drug-law inmate, or shorten the lifespan of the System by one day, then I have done something with my life. The difference between me and a conservative is that I feel the moral duty to work as hard as I can to end the System as fast as I humanly can.


*Yes, I know that if I were an American citizen I'd have the wondrous freedom of choosing from a selection of 200,000 guns manufactured 23 years ago. Even if I had the coveted citizenship (which, as you all know, is the primary goal of my life), I would prefer not to partake.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2009, 03:00:01 PM »
I can see you are passionate about this Micro, however, I will defer to the founding fathers (my own emphasis added):

Quote
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.(Aside: this is the part you are emphasizing). Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; (THIS is the part I am emphasizing) and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states.

These are the abuses they cited (among others):

Quote
He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:


Of these abuses, I ca so far only find 2 that would apply today:
Quote
He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.


Here is the withholding of federal funds unless a state bend to the will of the National government.

And:

Quote
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

I believe that one is self-explanatory.

The other objections are not applicable to our present government: we still have voice in our representation and laws. For that reason, clamoring for "revolution" is unwise.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »
So you're implying that as long as the abuses are not the same abuses listed in the DoI, we're okay?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Jamisjockey

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2009, 04:11:23 PM »
So you're implying that as long as the abuses are not the same abuses listed in the DoI, we're okay?

What do you mean, we?
 :lol:
JD

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makattak

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Re: Utopian
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2009, 04:15:27 PM »
So you're implying that as long as the abuses are not the same abuses listed in the DoI, we're okay?

No. However, I am implying that any "revolution" will need abrogations of rights at least that bad.

You, on the other hand, seem to be implying the proper response to Prohibition (18th amendment) should have been revolution.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought