House Passes Cap and Trade.

[Standing Wolf]

The whole idea of taxing energy is to route more wealth through government hands, which will so-called "redistribute" it in accordance with socialist principles:

1. More government
2. More government
3. More government

while paying lip service to the self-styled "victims" of capitalism.

[tyme]

On the reruns c-span was just showing, John Larson (D-CT-1) ranted about the evils of sending dollars overseas and our addiction to oil... buying oil funds terrorism, etc.  He claimed that somehow this bill will help us compete against China and India.  Strangely he didn't explain how.

Every supporter of this bill said the same thing, couched in amorphous and moral rather than factual language: that passing this bill will somehow get China and India and other countries to follow suit in restricting their emissions, that this bill will create jobs, and that this bill will improve our ability to compete with China and India.  Mind-boggling.  China is going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

"Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs.  Let's vote for jobs!"  -- Nancy Pelosi, 2009-06-26, on the American Clean Energy and Security Act

"Make no mistake, this [American Clean Energy and Security Act] is a jobs bill."  -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address

"Above all, [the American Clean Energy and Security Act] will protect consumers from the costs of this transition, so that in a decade, the price to the average American will be just about a postage stamp a day."  -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address

"[The American Clean Energy and Security Act] has also been carefully written to address the concerns that many have expressed in the past.  Instead of increasing the deficit, it's paid for by the polluters who currently emit dangerous carbon emissions." -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address.

[makattak]

On the reruns c-span was just showing, John Larson (D-CT-1) ranted about the evils of sending dollars overseas and our addiction to oil... buying oil funds terrorism, etc.  He claimed that somehow this bill will help us compete against China and India.  Strangely he didn't explain how.

Every supporter of this bill said the same thing, couched in amorphous and moral rather than factual language: that passing this bill will somehow get China and India and other countries to follow suit in restricting their emissions, that this bill will create jobs, and that this bill will improve our ability to compete with China and India.  Mind-boggling.  China is going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

"Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs.  Let's vote for jobs!"  -- Nancy Pelosi, 2009-06-26, on the American Clean Energy and Security Act

"Make no mistake, this [American Clean Energy and Security Act] is a jobs bill."  -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address

"Above all, [the American Clean Energy and Security Act] will protect consumers from the costs of this transition, so that in a decade, the price to the average American will be just about a postage stamp a day."  -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address

"[The American Clean Energy and Security Act] has also been carefully written to address the concerns that many have expressed in the past.  Instead of increasing the deficit, it's paid for by the polluters who currently emit dangerous carbon emissions." -- President Obama, 2009-06-27, weekly address.

Hmmm... they claim the cost will be "only" a postage stamp a day.

First of all, I'll note they make that claim about 10 years hence. That way they will no longer be around to suffer the consequences. This also means the immediate cost will be MUCH higher, but they won't talk about that.

(Aside: as an economist, this is what is scaring me: they are passing laws that will have no results but to damage an economy ALREADY in recession.... HOW STUPID ARE THESE PEOPLE)

Secondly, a "postage stamp a day" comes out to about $165 per year.

That's not minuscule, and will be a burden ESPECIALLY on families just starting out. This is their estimated cost in ten years. How much do they plan on bleeding new families right now?

[roo_ster]

Best CBO numbers placed the cost in the realm of $1000-$2000 per avg taxpayer per year.

Other less rosy estimates exceed $5000/year/taxpayer.

[HankB]

This bill is national suicide, yet there's a headlong rush to pass it.

IMHO it's because the concerns who are selling the imaginary product (carbon credits) are going to have a very large and dependable cash flow, which they're no doubt going to share with their friends in the Congress.

What angers me most is not that our politicians are crooks who'd sell their own daughters for a buck, but that the alleged "reporters" in our so-called "news media" are, by and large, willing, informed, accomplices to this <expletive.>

NYTimes, LATimes, ABCNBCCBSCNNMSNBT etc. have become nothing more than the propaganda wing of the extreme left in the Democratic Party.

Best CBO numbers placed the cost in the realm of $1000-$2000 per avg taxpayer per year.

Other less rosy estimates exceed $5000/year/taxpayer.

And they don't include the massive hit to GDP . . .

[longeyes]

That will be the most expensive postage stamp in history--in the new KenyAmero currency.

[longeyes]

This is a time of magical, infantile "thinking."

We have many people, in the mass and in the elite both, who think that legislation creates reality (a green future with oodles of new jobs, by imperial fiat) and that government is somehow behind all wealth and progress.  They haven't a clue how America got to be the most powerful nation in history, and, worse, they have no respect for liberty.

In my view it is way past time to believe we can educate them.

[MicroBalrog]

This is a time of magical, infantile "thinking."

That is a huge insult to infants.

[Monkeyleg]

He claimed that somehow this bill will help us compete against China and India.  Strangely he didn't explain how.

Because products from American companies like Harley, Briggs and others I mentioned will be made in China and India, so the companies will be able to sell them for less, thus making them competitive on the world market.

I've been reluctant to say it in public, and will probably be punished for doing so, but I think some of our legiscritters should be captured and made examples of what can happen when legislators sell out their country.

[lupinus]

Because products from American companies like Harley, Briggs and others I mentioned will be made in China and India, so the companies will be able to sell them for less, thus making them competitive on the world market.

I've been reluctant to say it in public, and will probably be punished for doing so, but I think some of our legiscritters should be captured and made examples of what can happen when legislators sell out their country.

That's probably his idea, however it doesn't do a thing for the average American.

[dogmush]

I've been reluctant to say it in public, and will probably be punished for doing so, but I think some of our legiscritters should be captured and made examples of what can happen when legislators sell out their country.

I believe the problem is we've given them plenty of examples as to what happens when legislators sell out their country.  Reelection doesn't seem to scare them.  I think what we need to do is add some new consequences.

[Waitone]

What I find fascinating about the discussion here and on other correctly thinking boards is the incomplete thinking about what is happening to us.  I can find beau coup d'electrons on the evils of what our government is doing yet I can find nothing, absolutely nothing, about rolling back what the bad guys are doing.  If the provisions being enacted are so unconstitutional, so unlawful, so morally unacceptable why is there no discussion of rolling back the initiatives.

Why do we accept as permanent  a political ratchet that moves only toward the left.  Democrats honk down on the handle hard and fast.  Joe and Martha Sixpack rebel and rock'em back on their heels by throwing in with republicans.  The result?  Nothing!  No movement to reset the ratchet and back off the statism implemented by democrats.  We are told the party assuming power wants to focus on the future and not the past.  Well if what the incumbent party did so so wrong, onerous, illegal, unconstitutional, and fattening, then we are morally obligated to undo it.  Not defund it, not fail to enforce, not ignore it; repeal it.  What we do see is evident agreement with the goals and objectives of the other party.  Republicans are supposedly the party of business and free market capitalism and all that tommyrot.  What I see is nothing of the sort.  What I see is statists accepting what statists in the other party do.  There is no interest in jihading our way through the law code and removing everything constituting a threat to life, liberty, and property.  In short, the flame of liberty burns low.  I hope it does not go out.

[tyme]

Oil execs are stating that under this green energy regime, their plan will be to abandon (polluting) refineries and simply import gas and fuel from abroad.  Three cheers for more dependence on foreign oil!

here we go: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1ZiIqv3E4QE

[Monkeyleg]

Waitone, there's a couple of reasons why these provisions probably, but not positively, will not be rolled back. The first is that Republicans don't  have spines. Second is that the Democrats will find a way to make a large segment of the public dependent upon the cap and trade bill, so that they can cry "boogeyman" if Republicans even mention touching the law.

History has shown that, once a tax has been enacted, it's near impossible to repeal. Taxes have been reduced, not largely not repealed. Isn't there still a tax on phone bills for the Spanish American war? I know there's still a tax for Clinton's 1996 campaign maneuver to get votes in California by giving the state's schools internet access.

[Waitone]

Spanish American War and it was repealed a year or so ago.

Extraordinary events demand extraordinary thinking.  My problem is I see no thinking much less evidence of extraordinary thinking on the part of the loyal opposition. 

[HankB]

I've been reluctant to say it in public, and will probably be punished for doing so, but I think some of our legiscritters should be captured and made examples of what can happen when legislators sell out their country.

I'm thinking along the lines of a scene from the miniseries "John Adams" where a British port official was being excessively - shall we say - "Officious."

A cry was raised . . . "TAR HIM! TAR HIM!"

The Colonists did. 

[Monkeyleg]

A cry was raised . . . "TAR HIM! TAR HIM!"

I was thinking more along the lines of the Nuremburg trials.

[Balog]

The problem is that in a democratic republic the poli-critters represent the wishes of their constituents. After enough years of indoctrination in our "schools" I honestly think we have more people who want to see America turn into a socialist European country than who want it to stay unique.

[restorer]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about the 2 million or 3 million or 3.5 million or some other fictitious number of jobs that will be "saved or created" by a green energy economy. If it's true then I want someone to detail job titles....what job is being created? For example: Methane scrubber, Carbon Compliance Community Chairman (scary), Turbine Blade Wiper 2, Compost Wrangler, Geothermal Dousing Witch, Small Engine Usage Snitch, Roof and Driveway Painter...what? The reason nobody can say is that any meaningful jobs are years if not decades (if ever) downstream.

Oh wait, I know. Obama is going to hire 100,000 people to build wind turbines then hire 3.4 million at minimum wage to stand in front of them and blow as hard as they can. Can you see the reaction to getting that job? "But when you said this job really blows, I thought you meant...."

[Thylacine]

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/index.html
Reps by State.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml
Roll Call Vote on Cap and Trade.

[longeyes]

Roll-backs are not impossible.  But it will take a psychological sea-change.  And make no mistake, the seas will be roiling.

[S. Williamson]

I'm curious to see where they plan on taking all of this.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

We knew this was going to pass in the House, so no surprise there.  The real battle was always going to be in the Senate.  We'll have to see how that one shakes out.

Heck, the fact that it only barely passed in the House is quite encouraging.  It was supposed to pass easily, but apparently Obama had to pull out all the stops just to get it through.

[longeyes]

There is one word to describe what their side is doing: travesty.

And there is one word to describe what our side is doing about it: nothing.

The political realm has become surreal, but too many on our side continue to act as if it's still business as usual.  This is not just the result of the current political polemics, it's the result of deep changes in the American culture over the last forty years.  We are living in Ted Kennedy's America, and that prospect should scare the bejesus out of all of us.  If we think we are going to get out of this by winning a few local elections and staging a few tea parties we are kidding ourselves, that's all I can say.

***

I will be waiting to see what happens with SCOTUS's ruling on the Ricci case.  That will tell me how much of the country I grew up in is still left.

[Jocassee]

There is one word to describe what their side is doing: travesty.

And there is one word to describe what our side is doing about it: nothing.

QFT