Author Topic: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)  (Read 3653 times)

roo_ster

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I think this guy hits the kernel of BHO's problem:
Most people would have poorer helath care under his socialized scheme than they do now.





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1206149/STEPHEN-GLOVER-I-deeply-resent-Americans-sneering-health-service---thats-truth-hurts.html#

I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service  -  but perhaps that's because the truth hurts

By Stephen Glover

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1206149/STEPHEN-GLOVER-I-deeply-resent-Americans-sneering-health-service---thats-truth-hurts.html##ixzz0OH34dGQa


President Barack Obama's political enemies are rounding on his controversial proposals to extend government involvement in health care. One way in which they are doing so is to hold up our own cherished NHS for ridicule.

His Right-wing critics accuse the NHS of putting an 'Orwellian' financial cap on the value of life by allowing elderly people to die without treatment.

The case of a dental patient in Liverpool who supposedly had to superglue a loose crown has been mentioned as an example of the appallingly low standard of dentistry in Britain.

At the wilder reaches of seemingly lunatic allegations is the suggestion that anyone over the age of 59 in Britain is ineligible for treatment for heart disease.

One leading Republican has also declared that the 77-year-old Senator Edward Kennedy, who is suffering from a brain tumour, would have been allowed to die in this country on account of his relatively advanced age.

In fact, President Obama's plans fall well short of the sort of state-run health service we have in this country. He wants to ensure that the 40 or 50 million Americans - many of them black or Latino - who do not have health insurance are able to receive the same standard of care as the majority who do.

Nevertheless, his proposals are characterised as 'socialist medicine', and the NHS is invoked as the living example of this abomination.

We may be sure, I think, that most of those who are cheerily dredging up British scare- stories do not really believe them.

We are merely providing the ballast in a domestic American argument that is getting dirty. Let's not take offence at this wildly overstated depiction of Britain as a sort of feral, failed state with Third World standards of health care.

The question that interests me is whether there is a grain of truth hiding amid these insults. I'd say there was. I'd say that under the present system which President Obama is hoping to improve, most middle-class Americans are liable to receive better health treatment than their British counterparts.

If I were a middle-income American living in Seattle or Chicago, I could almost certainly rely on superior care than if I lived in Birmingham or Newcastle.

This would probably not apply if I were poor, though there is a safety net for the sick and uninsured in the United States that is more effective than British critics commonly suppose. I accept, too, that American healthcare can be wasteful and unnecessarily extravagant. It suits vested interests to perpetuate this lavish system, which partly explains the attacks on President Obama.

Once, in America and suffering from bad earache, I visited a local doctor. In this country I would probably have been greeted with a weary smile, and, if lucky, offered an aspirin.

In the United States I was cosseted by a pretty nurse, and subjected to several exhaustive tests by an accommodating doctor, one of which involved me sitting in a sound-proof booth to have my hearing tested. At the end of it all I was presented with a bill for several hundred dollars - and the verdict that I had nothing to worry about.

But whatever the failings and excesses of the American system, the statistics suggest that it delivers better outcomes than the NHS when dealing with serious illnesses. I say 'suggest' because we should always be wary of comparing figures compiled in different ways in different countries.

In treating almost every cancer, America apparently does better than Britain, sometimes appreciably so. According to a study in Lancet Oncology last year, 91.9 per cent of American men with prostate cancer were still alive after five years, compared with only 51.1per cent in Britain.

The same publication suggests that 90.1 per cent of women in the U.S. diagnosed with breast cancer between 2000 and 2002 survived for at least five years, as against 77.8 per cent in Britain.

So it goes on. Overall the outcome for cancer patients is better in America than in this country. So, too, it is for victims of heart attacks, though the difference is less marked.

If you are suspicious of comparative statistics, consult any American who has encountered the NHS. Often they cannot believe what has happened to them - the squalor, and looming threat of MRSA; the long waiting lists, and especially the official target that patients in 'accident and emergency' should be expected to wait for no more than four - four! - hours; the sense exuded by some medical staff that they are doing you a favour by taking down your personal details.

Most Americans, let's face it, are used to much higher standards of healthcare than we enjoy, even after the doubling of the NHS budget under New Labour. Of course, the U.S. is a somewhat richer country, but I doubt its superior health service can be mainly attributed to this advantage.

Americans should beware of any proposals that might threaten their standards, though President Obama is right to want to extend them to the poor.

As for us, it is time we accepted that the NHS is not the envy of the world, if it ever was. Even though it may not deserve many of the brickbats being thrown at it by Right-wing American critics, the practice of rationing expensive cancer drugs and treatments is undoubtedly more widespread in Britain than it is in America.

The principle of equal healthcare for everyone regardless of income is a precious one. The fact is, though, that there are other, better ways to achieve this than through an increasingly inefficient, centrally planned leviathan set up over 60 years ago.

In our hearts many, perhaps most, of us know this. We all have horror stories to tell about the NHS, though we are likely to have good things to say about it, and its sometimes selfless medical staff, as well.

An increasing number of us take out private health insurance, and many others would like to do so if they could only afford to, which hardly indicates unbounded confidence in the NHS.

And yet, despite its shortcomings, we are reluctant to think about changing it, and any politician who suggested doing so might as well slit his own throat.

For all his admiration of the NHS as a result of the treatment it offered his severely disabled son, David Cameron is quite clever enough to recognise its deficiencies, but he will only dare talk about putting ever more money into it as it is. I doubt he will be any braver, or more imaginative, in government.

In view of the failure of President Bill Clinton's healthcare proposals more than 15 years ago, and the opposition he is now facing, the omens may not be good for Mr Obama.

If he really could preserve all that is good about the present U.S. system, while making it available to everyone regardless of income, I would wish him all the luck in the world.

The President is discovering that people are apt to want to defend and preserve what they have. The same is true of we British and our lumbering health service. The difference, though, is that what the Americans have is, for the most part, better than the NHS.
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roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 01:53:23 PM »
I've observed from certain Brits I know that it's almost a matter of national pride to defend the NHS against criticisms from Americans who want no part of a NHS-style system.  They all seem to have horror stories about bad health care experiences back home, but any criticisms of their system or any suggestions that they could change for the better are met with knee-jerk, impassioned resistance.

Wasn't there a British politician recently who was called "unpatriotic", a rather sever criticism in Britain, for expressing his dislike of NHS?

The NHS clearly has problems (all systems do), but pointing this out really seems to hit a nerve with the Brits I know.  I would love to understand why.  "The truth hurts" is one possible explanation, but maybe there are other possibilities, too.

(For the record, when I refer to "Brits I know", I'm referencing people I know in meatspace and not the British members here on APS.)

Cromlech

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 02:16:50 PM »
There will of course be people here who argue for either side. Plenty of people, including Stephen Hawking have come out in the last week to praise the NHS for their health, while others might not be happy that they or a relative did not receive the same access to Cancer drugs as someone on the Welsh side of the Severn Bridge.
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tincat2

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 02:40:51 PM »
i suspect that the referenced article is a 'plant' by what appears to be a very well funded and intense group of opponents to the 'change health care(obama amongst them)' crowd,
my buddy knows an american, who, while in britain, injured his knee. he went to the treatment center, was treated satisfactorily, and left without being charged a fee. upon going to the pharmacy, his prescription was 6pounds(~$10, i think). he found out there, that most, if not all, scripts were $10. this all happened to an american in a foreign land. the point to me here is that the british system doesn't sound that bad. i'm sure there are areas that could be enhanced or improved, but i don't think dismissing the whole thing with a sneer and wave of the hand is anything but ignorance or self serving pandering to a vested interest.
no 'system' is going to serve anyone better than it serves those who control it. 'healthcare' in the u.s. starts as a monopoly on drugs and equipment by the doctors. i may know exactly what i need in the way of treatment for a given ailment, but i may not treat myself without the 'permission' of a third party. now, i won't ask you to pay for my care, but you stay the hell out of my taking care of myself. when all the blather about 'free choice' in healthcare becomes a reality of free choice, then you may be surprised to see costs reenter the real world.

Iain

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 04:40:39 PM »
As I said on the other thread, when calling you out for your creative angle on Hawking, the real objection has been to the outright fictions about the NHS. That has stirred up some rather nationalistic feelings, but the initial objection was to the lies.

Elsewhere I've observed my more thoughtful British friends reflect soberly on that outburst, and the conclusions quite rightly are that British healthcare is probably not the best in the world. Apparently the French do a lot better. There are Americans over there on my other forum too, and some of them have quite different outlooks on your healthcare system than many here do, whilst still not wanting a British type system.

The nerve that has been hit may in part also be due to a somewhat unfair view of the American system as one that allows people to die if they can't afford ER care. Like I said, when Americans and Brits get together to soberly discuss the NHS (calling it a hotbed of terror doesn't count as sober Fox) these misconceptions get straightened out somewhat.

What I do notice is that generally most people don't have the same level of contact with healthcare providers that I do. Nor the same level of contact with the disabled population that I have. My major area of concern in any healthcare reform debate is that the general public, when caught up in political rhetoric, often forget or fail to appreciate the number of people who can, and do, fall through the cracks.

tincat - prescription charge is a standard rate for all prescriptions. It's £7.10 per item at the moment.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 04:44:21 PM by Iain »
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roo_ster

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2009, 06:46:29 PM »
I attribute a good portion the resentment felt on the other side of the pond to not being used to criticism and especially criticism from Americans.

The Brits, and especially English are the second-most criticized nationality on Earth, but they are a distant second to us over here in America.  And they are definitely not accustomed to their sacred cows getting poked with sticks by us.

Americans criticize their gov't every day of the week and twice on Sundays...and so does everybody else, to include stinking hell-hole countries where the locals still use their main source of drinking water as a sewer.  Everybody on Earth seems to think they have an unassailable right to jab their thumb in our eye and then expect praise for doing so.

Thing is, most can dish it out but very few of them can take it, has been my experience in person and the net.  If the other is black/brown/yellow, one can expect accusations of racism followed by bigoted comments from them about the inhabitants of the USA.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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Iain

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2009, 06:54:20 PM »
You can 'attribute' it to what you like. It's obviously absolutely nothing to do with claims of mythical non-famous British physicists rotting away.
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roo_ster

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2009, 08:17:36 PM »
You can 'attribute' it to what you like. It's obviously absolutely nothing to do with claims of mythical non-famous British physicists rotting away.

Well, plenty of non-famous Brits do rot away in NHS-run nursing homes, physicist or otherwise.  Heck, I don't even have to rely on anecdote, but a British Medical Journal article written before they got all defensive:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0999/is_7326_323/ai_n27573180/

Quote from: BMJ Article
EDITOR--Are readers surprised by Ballard et al's findings that nursing homes are failing the needs of patients with dementia? (1) Probably not, especially if they spend any time in nursing homes either as a healthcare professional or as a relative or friend.
To sum up: nursing homes are purposely not diagnosing inconvenient ailments that require staff to monitor and instead just sedate the piteous creatures to keep them from being troublesome.

Not surprising, as I saw the same thing in another, American, gov't run system.  Gov't schools here are very reluctant to mention words referring to learning, speech, or reading disabilities or delays, as they are then required to test them posthaste and provide remedial help.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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Iain

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 06:29:55 AM »
Well, plenty of non-famous Brits do rot away in NHS-run nursing homes, physicist or otherwise.  Heck, I don't even have to rely on anecdote, but a British Medical Journal article written before they got all defensive:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0999/is_7326_323/ai_n27573180/
To sum up: nursing homes are purposely not diagnosing inconvenient ailments that require staff to monitor and instead just sedate the piteous creatures to keep them from being troublesome.

Not surprising, as I saw the same thing in another, American, gov't run system.  Gov't schools here are very reluctant to mention words referring to learning, speech, or reading disabilities or delays, as they are then required to test them posthaste and provide remedial help.

In your haste, did you look beyond the letters page? Perhaps back to the original report?

I have. There are two ways to characterise the original report:

1. The frothing anti-govt healthcare way: All the NHS institutions in the report were rated as needing 'radical improvement'.

2. The 'I can actually read and understand things' way: There were 7 NHS institutions and 10 private institutions in the study. (Were you even aware that the study also looked at private institutions?) That's not a particularly big sample, so it would be unfair to extrapolate from it that all NHS-run facilities are needing radical improvement, but yes, all 7 in this study were deemed to need such improvement.

So were 5 of the private institutions. What? This can't be. "Quality of care was rated as needing radical improvement or much improvement in all homes, and no home showed even a fair standard of care." Private healthcare can't be like this, it's unpossible and definitely not truthy.

Going back to the letters page - "Good dementia care does exist in both the NHS and the independent sector, but usually as a result of enthusiastic champions rather than design." - Clive Bowman medical director Graham Stokes consultant in mental health BUPA Care Services.

BUPA are a private healthcare company, stating that even in the private sector there are issues, but in both the NHS and the private sector there are examples of good dementia care.

Going back to the letter you partially quoted:

Quote
Until relatively recently we were also failing children with severe learning disabilities. Now we understand these children's needs and rights to education, choice, and social interaction. People who work with these children are highly regarded in our society, if not well financially remunerated. It seems to me that until we start to apply the same ethos of care to our elderly people that we apply to our ill and disabled children we will continue to fail them. We must always remember that one day it may be us sitting in that chair with no way of communicating our distress.

Failure to decently treat the mentally ill is an acknowledged failure, didn't you yourself say that in a recent thread about a schizophrenic?

Moreover, if you'd read the letters you'd have read that most of them expressed concerns over Ballard et al's methodology.

Your ability to impartially assess the evidence that you yourself put forward has to be in question. In fact this:

Quote
To sum up: nursing homes are purposely not diagnosing inconvenient ailments that require staff to monitor and instead just sedate the piteous creatures to keep them from being troublesome.

Is not reflected anywhere in the letters or the report. Even if it were true, it would be true of all 10 private institutions. I'm very tempted to move beyond calling your statements merely 'creative'.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 06:34:27 AM by Iain »
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Jamisjockey

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 08:44:52 AM »
Moving this to politics, as it ties straight into the Obamacare debate, with a warning:  You two need to calm down a bit.  Some of your back and forthing is borderline.
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agricola

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 09:23:41 AM »
I think the issue here is that people, especially over this side of the pond, do not like to see obvious lies go unchallenged.  In some way this is similar to the "self-defence doesnt exist in the UK" argument that was once so popular, albeit that argument was at least based on some fairly well-constructed fictions; this anti-NHS argument appears to come from someone who didnt understand that people would be able to check. 

None of the above should be taken to say that the NHS is "better" than your system*, or is without flaw.

* though it does appear to be cheaper http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/08/14/uk-v-usa-the-basic-healthcare-facts/
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RevDisk

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 03:44:19 PM »
I think the issue here is that people, especially over this side of the pond, do not like to see obvious lies go unchallenged.  In some way this is similar to the "self-defence doesnt exist in the UK" argument that was once so popular, albeit that argument was at least based on some fairly well-constructed fictions; this anti-NHS argument appears to come from someone who didnt understand that people would be able to check. 

None of the above should be taken to say that the NHS is "better" than your system*, or is without flaw.

* though it does appear to be cheaper http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/08/14/uk-v-usa-the-basic-healthcare-facts/
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makattak

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 11:09:44 AM »
I think the issue here is that people, especially over this side of the pond, do not like to see obvious lies go unchallenged.  In some way this is similar to the "self-defence doesnt exist in the UK" argument that was once so popular, albeit that argument was at least based on some fairly well-constructed fictions; this anti-NHS argument appears to come from someone who didnt understand that people would be able to check. 

None of the above should be taken to say that the NHS is "better" than your system*, or is without flaw.

* though it does appear to be cheaper http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/08/14/uk-v-usa-the-basic-healthcare-facts/

The article posted has some problems:

Quote
Of course, what they’re failing to do is take into account the ability a public healthcare system would have to drive down costs, and in their attacks on the NHS are choosing to ignore the simple fact that the NHS (even with all its problems and wastage) works out as far, far better value for money than even the current US system.

Everyone supporting this healthcare system just throws that out there. "It'll cost less!!" Again, no explanation of how.

The thing is, I don't doubt it will cost less. That's why I keep harping on the HOW problem. Those on the left are either unwilling or unable to admit how this would occur.

First, is the rationing problem that is often discussed. Health care would be more limited than it is now. (Were it not, "costs" would not decrease, ESPECIALLY since a zero price for a good will always increase quantity demanded).

Secondly, is the death of research. High spending on medical care is driving research in new treatments and drugs. Without this high spending, decisions on what diseases/problems to research will become political decisions. Fewer drugs will be developed. Those that are will be developed through government-sponsored research (thus are the more politically "sexy" problems).

The article alludes to this with:

Quote
But this in turn would ignore the fact that the US’s over-spending on medicine thanks to its piss-poor health system helps to subsidise the cheaper medicine available in other parts of the world by offsetting pharmaceutical R&D costs, etc. – in other words, a US version of the NHS would almost certainly decrease the cost of US healthcare, but may well end up raising it elsewhere…

This is one point I've been trying to press home. The United States is driving most of the research costs in medicine. We are also have the most free market in medicine (by no means is it a FREE market given the huge amount of regulation). That is not simply a random correlation. This is also why I wonder what will happen if we kill this golden goose... (Higher prices in other countries because we are subsidizing them now)

So next time someone spouts the "it'll lower costs!", ask them how.
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MechAg94

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Re: I deeply resent the Americans sneering at our health service (Brit NHS)
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 02:31:32 PM »
I was less worried about the "cost of health care" and more concerned about the growth of a huge health care bureaucracy that would eat up a bug percentage of the funding right off the top.  The US federal govt has a strong tendency to do things like that.
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