National Health Care-Obama Plan

[seeker_two]

Where are the lawsuits?  Where is SCOTUS?

Soon to be in the jurisdiciton of "wise Latinas"....thanks to the Republican Senators' lack of opposition.... 

[De Selby]

Shootin''s right.  Systems without profit are wonderful.  Great idea to have doctors work for the government "at cost."  But if this is a nation built on the law, rather than on health care, why shouldn't we expect lawyers to work "at cost" and without profit too?  Let them go first into the brave new world.

See, that's the thing: the other systems generally aren't without profit.  They're able to operate entire private hospital systems at vastly lower rates than in the US. 

Lawyers fees are regulated by law, btw, and quite tightly.  More so in other countries, but that's true of the United States as well.  A court can declare your fee "unreasonable" even if it was actually freely negotiated with a sophisticated client and take it away from you as a lawyer.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

A court can declare your fee "unreasonable" even if it was actually freely negotiated with a sophisticated client and take it away from you as a lawyer.


when has that happened?

[De Selby]

A court can declare your fee "unreasonable" even if it was actually freely negotiated with a sophisticated client and take it away from you as a lawyer.


when has that happened?

Happens all the time - in California you are required to submit to mandatory fee arbitration any time a client files a request for it with the state bar.

[Gewehr98]

Soon to be in the jurisdiciton of "wise Latinas"....thanks to the Republican Senators' lack of opposition....

Your angst is misplaced.  There's nothing the Republican senators can do to prevent Sotamayer from being confirmed.  They simply don't have enough votes against the Democratic majority, so a liberal judge replaces a liberal judge on the Supreme Court bench.  They'd be pissing in the wind.

Yawn.

[seeker_two]

Your angst is misplaced.  There's nothing the Republican senators can do to prevent Sotamayer from being confirmed.  They simply don't have enough votes against the Democratic majority, so a liberal judge replaces a liberal judge on the Supreme Court bench.  They'd be pissing in the wind.

Yawn.

Being unable to prevent her nomination is one thing....actually voting FOR her nomination is reprehensible and beneath contempt....something I will be notifying my senators about...esp. the one deluded enough to believe she'll ever be governor...

[RocketMan]

If you are sick or at risk of serious illness and possess an amount under the millions in cash, the odds are that the United States is absolutely the worst place in the developed world that you could be.

Those that have seen my posts in the past will know that the language I am about to use is completely out of character for me, but I just cannot let this pass.  And I apologize in advance to any that are offended.  Moderators, take whatever action you deem appropriate.

SS, your statement quoted above, like many that you have made before, is complete and unadulterated bullshit.

That is all I will say about this.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Ya know, despite shootin's belief that Americans are fleeing overseas for medical care, I just don't see it.  

I've met several Europeans overseas who wanted to know if they could come here to use our medical system.  I've not known any Americans who wished they could go overseas for medical care there.  The contrast is quite striking given that I've met many, many times more Americans than Europeans, and I've spent much, much more time in America than I have in europe.  Anecdotal for sure, but it's a striking contrast.

So how many of y'all have wanted to go overseas for medical care?

And tell me, just how is our system "broken"?  Everyone who's willing to put up the resources is able to secure all the medical care they could realistically expect.  It doesn't come free here, obviously, TANSTAAFL and all.  It doesn't come free anywhere.  But if you want it and you're willing to work for it, just about anyone can get excellent care here.

[De Selby]

Those that have seen my posts in the past will know that the language I am about to use is completely out of character for me, but I just cannot let this pass.  And I apologize in advance to any that are offended.  Moderators, take whatever action you deem appropriate.

SS, your statement quoted above, like many that you have made before, is complete and unadulterated bullshit.

That is all I will say about this.

If that's all you were going to say, it would've been a lot more productive to contribute something to the discussions about health care.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If that's all you were going to say, it would've been a lot more productive to contribute something to the discussions about health care.

Hint: he did say something about health care.  It just happened to be something you want to dismiss.

[De Selby]

Ya know, despite shootin's belief that Americans are fleeing overseas for medical care, I just don't see it. 

I've met several Europeans overseas who wanted to know if they could come here to use our medical system.  I've not known any Americans who wished they could go overseas for medical care there.  The contrast is quite striking given that I've met many, many times more Americans than Europeans.  Anecdotal for sure, but it seems to be quite a contrast.

So how many of y'all have wanted to go overseas for medical care?

And tell me, just how is our system "broken"?  Everyone who's willing to put up the resources is able to secure all the medical care they could realistically expect.  It doesn't come free here, obviously, TANSTAAFL and all.  It doesn't come free anywhere.  But if you want it and you're willing to work for it, just about anyone can get excellent care here.

The determination of "broken" comes from straight numbers:  cost is higher, and results are either similar or not as good as other systems.  Can you name any specific advantage to this system over others?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

we had to send my mom overseas to save her for another 8 years.  interestingly enough the treatment/drugs we sent her for were developed in the us and used for treating tb in the 50's.  just weren't approved for cancer treatment in the us. so we sent her to japan for treatment. oddly/ironically it was the government that we are told that we should trust that denied her the right to use those drugs to save her life

[RocketMan]

Your mother's problem, C&SD, was not a health care cost issue so much as a risk aversion or risk abatement issue.  An issue that some might say has been taken to the extreme, mostly through govt. regulation and liability concerns.

[Monkeyleg]

Shootinstudent, I keep reading things about the Canadian and British systems that don't coincide with what you're saying. For example, I read that average waiting times in ER's in Canada for non-life-threatening problems is 18 hours, and that the wait for exams such as colinoscopies can be eight to nine months. I also keep reading about rationing of procedures such as bypasses.

I also know that hospitals in the US cannot turn away patients because they have no insurance. I see patients at the county hospital here in Milwaukee (one of the best facilities in the country) who obviously don't have any money, but are receiving top-notch care utilizing expensive equipment and expert doctors.

Those people are receiving care that's paid for by those of us with insurance, just as those of us who either pay with our Cadillac health plans or pay by cash pay for those who are treated through Medicare. Doctors would go broke if they received what Medicare pays from every patient.

How, then, can it be that a system being proposed that is very similar to Medicare is going to give better results? It doesn't add up.

[longeyes]

The point of the proposed "reforms" is to ingeniously combine equality with punition--except for the political class that wil continue to get options for real health care.  I'm sure Obama's Kenyan/Marxist dad would be ecstatic about everything BHO is trying to do.

[sanglant]

it makes perfect sense when your knee deep in political ideology and can not bring yourself to see just how crooked your(both) political party(parties) happens(happen) to be

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Your mother's problem, C&SD, was not a health care cost issue so much as a risk aversion or risk abatement issue.  An issue that some might say has been taken to the extreme, mostly through govt. regulation and liability concerns.

i think it was an fda with head in a dark place issue. and i have no reason to think the gov has gotten smarter/better

shucks it was a government doctor at nih who told us about the treatment we could get in japan.  that said as soon as we could we got mom over there and in treatment. then we smuggled several years worth of the drugs back. she wanted out of their medical system as fast as she could.  didn't like it at all.  and she was japanese it was free. couldn't get back soon enough

[Gewehr98]

I know there are a lot of Canadians who are so impressed with their socialist health care plan that they routinely cross the border to Detroit:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20080418/BRIGHTSIDE/577130486#

Or did you not want us to bring that into play, SS?

[RocketMan]

i think it was an fda with head in a dark place issue. and i have no reason to think the gov has gotten smarter/better

I think you said it better than me, C&SD.

[De Selby]

Gewehr, that's certainly relevant, but there are just as many anecdotes and articles about Americans flying to India and Thailand (and driving to Canada) to get care because they can't in the US.  A single article or story about how much you paid can't settle this question.  I have my stories, CS&D has his, Monkeyleg has heard about Canada, and we can all quote news articles until the cows come home.

The best way to judge the situation is to look at detailed research on the total costs and total results.  Here's some research on it that I think pretty clearly outlines the problem:   assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf

That's solid documentation that costs are higher, and results are not better, in this system.  If there are any studies that debunk these figures or show that costs are not higher, and results are comparable per unit of cost, I would consider that to be evidence to the contrary.  But I don't think any such study exists.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the japanese live longest and have whats is supposed to be the greatest system and yet mom couldn't get away fast enough.  now granted we had decent insurance here .as well as access to nih and the lombardi cancer center so we were blessed. even back then her total medical bills were in 7 digits.we had catastrophic medical and liquidated some assets to pay for the overseas treamnet. since the gov didn't approve it the insurance didn't pay for it

[Balog]

The issue with the US system, the reason it is indeed broken, is that it's already largely socialist. Medicare, Medicaid, Cobra etc etc etc. Rail against socialized medicine all you want; we already have it, and it's killing us.

Oddly, I actually like the Australian model for healthcare as one can opt out of the socialist plan. There are totally separate hospitals with separate docs etc. Wouldn't that be a nice change?

Of course, while we have millions upon millions of illegals flooding our system that's a bit less practical. /sigh That's the real issue; people want an isolated solution not a holistic one. Fixing the issues with the healthcare system are made exponentially more difficult by the massive drain that is illegal immigration, which is made worse by porous borders birthright citizenship and the welfare state etc etc

[longeyes]

Mark Steyn has zeroed in on what is really behind this: it's about, he says, nationalizing your body.  Let's not kid ourselves about what Obama is up to here.  It's of a piece with all his other programs, which to me are an extension of the Marxist "plantation" system.  Transfer wealth from the middle-class to the "disadvantaged," encourage MORE disadvantaged, and make sure the right people in the financial superstratrum are taken care of.

Now we have Obama, the malignant narcissist par excellence, telling us that "it's not about me."  No, but it's about what you want to do to us.  If Obama had honorable intentions, he wouldn't be giving Americans the bum's rush and asking them to hurry up and love a plan that remains deliberately vague and lacking in specifics.  This is rank and insulting nonsense, and I can only hope that Americans will rise up against it, now or later.

[buzz_knox]

As an employee of the federal gov't, let me assure you of one thing:  you do NOT want any employee of the federal gov't making any form of health care decisions for you.  There are political motivations in most every decision made, even if the decision is "will this make my boss appear before Congress."  It's worth noting that when it comes to insurance, our administrators find the private insurance company the agency wants to work with and gets out of the way.  Any issues, you deal with the company directly.  I had one yesterday that took 10 minutes to resolve.  If I'd had to work within my own bureaucracy, I'd still be waiting on a return call. 

[Jamisjockey]

Mark Steyn has zeroed in on what is really behind this: it's about, he says, nationalizing your body.  Let's not kid ourselves about what Obama is up to here.  It's of a piece with all his other programs, which to me are an extension of the Marxist "plantation" system.  Transfer wealth from the middle-class to the "disadvantaged," encourage MORE disadvantaged, and make sure the right people in the financial superstratrum are taken care of.

Now we have Obama, the malignant narcissist par excellence, telling us that "it's not about me."  No, but it's about what you want to do to us.  If Obama had honorable intentions, he wouldn't be giving Americans the bum's rush and asking them to hurry up and love a plan that remains deliberately vague and lacking in specifics.  This is rank and insulting nonsense, and I can only hope that Americans will rise up against it, now or later.

Go ahead, rise up and lead the "Divorce".  You first.