Author Topic: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased  (Read 3987 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« on: July 17, 2009, 03:55:28 PM »
Seriously, who the hell pulled that jackoff maneuver?  Erase the moon landing tapes?

What could be more important than the original moon landing tapes?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090716/tsc-uk-nasa-tapes-sb-a337f0f.html

Quote
The original recordings of the first humans landing on the moon 40 years ago were erased and re-used, but newly restored copies of the original broadcast look even better, NASA officials said on Thursday.

NASA released the first glimpses of a complete digital make-over of the original landing footage that clarifies the blurry and grainy images of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walking on the surface of the moon.

The full set of recordings, being cleaned up by Burbank, California-based Lowry Digital, will be released in September. The preview is available at http://www.nasa.gov.

NASA admitted in 2006 that no one could find the original video recordings of the July 20, 1969, landing.

Since then, Richard Nafzger, an engineer at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre in Maryland, who oversaw television processing at the ground-tracking sites during the Apollo 11 mission, has been looking for them.

The good news is he found where they went. The bad news is they were part of a batch of 200,000 tapes that were degaussed

-- magnetically erased -- and re-used to save money.

"The goal was live TV," Nafzger told a news conference.

"We should have had a historian running around saying 'I don't care if you are ever going to use them -- we are going to keep them'," he said.

They found good copies in the archives of CBS news and some recordings called kinescopes found in film vaults at Johnson Space Centre.

Lowry, best known for restoring old Hollywood films, has been digitizing these along with some other bits and pieces to make a new rendering of the original landing.

Nafzger does not worry that using a Hollywood-based company might fuel the fire of conspiracy theorists who believe the entire lunar program that landed people on the moon six times between 1969 and 1972 was staged on a movie set or secret military base.

"This company is restoring historic video. It mattered not to me where the company was from," Nafzger said.

"The conspiracy theorists are going to believe what they are going to believe," added Lowry Digital Chief Operating Officer Mike Inchalik.

And there may be some unofficial copies of the original broadcast out there somewhere that were taken from a NASA video switching centre in Sydney, Australia, the space agency said. Nafzger said someone else in Sydney made recordings too.

"These tapes are not in the system," Nafzger said. "We are certainly open to finding them."

Degauss the moon tapes.  Farking brilliant.
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Viking

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 04:18:49 PM »
Seriously, who the hell pulled that jackoff maneuver?  Erase the moon landing tapes?

What could be more important than the original moon landing tapes?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090716/tsc-uk-nasa-tapes-sb-a337f0f.html

Degauss the moon tapes.  Farking brilliant.
It's the government, what else do you expect? Werner Von Braun and the other may have been allowed to run things the way they ought to do be done if you want people on the moon, but the rest of it was probably run by the mindless hordes of bureaucrats and paper-clip counters.
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Nitrogen

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 04:20:14 PM »
It's the Government saving your tax money, that's what.  Those tapes werent cheap.

You know someone in nasa requested more money for more tapes, but some govt bureaucrat told them to reuse what they had.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 04:59:24 PM »
late 70's i got a spectacular speeding ticket.  as part of my debt to society i worked 15 weekends as a slave for the sheriffs community diversion program. one rainy weekend they had us clean up some "old files" stored in the old jail.  we threw out the wrong files. some ungodly number of personal property tax bills did not get sent out as a result
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Iain

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 05:11:42 PM »
As Nitrogen says, tape was very expensive.

The BBC puts out the occasional request for copies anyone may have of old TV shows. Think quite a bit of the original Dr Who was lost this way.
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K Frame

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 05:49:07 PM »
LOTS of early American television was also lost for the same reason... production quality tape was insanely expensive.
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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 05:54:50 PM »
I was expecting an article from the Onion, with a photo of Michael Jackson moon-walking on the moon.

zahc

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 06:16:18 PM »
Quote
The good news is he found where they went. The bad news is they were part of a batch of 200,000 tapes that were degaussed

-- magnetically erased -- and re-used to save money.

"The goal was live TV," Nafzger told a news conference.

As already pointed out, this is common. Lots of Dr. Who episodes are lost apparently permanently because nobody had VCRs back then.

The fact is that a recording medium that you could record video on and afford to put it on the shelf just wasn't there. They needed the tapes for other things at the time.

It's kind of sad, but that's how it was. People today are already used to everything being stored digitally for pennies, never fading or wearing out, but it wasn't too many decades ago that even music couldn't be recorded. Plays couldn't be filmed. People couldn't be photographed. And then when the technology was there, it was on a fragile analog medium that started deteriorating as soon as it was recorded.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 07:49:05 PM »
Quote
I was expecting an article from the Onion, with a photo of Michael Jackson moon-walking on the moon.

Not until next week. Be patient, eh?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 12:15:55 AM »
Oh, come on, is it not obvious?  THEY WERE TRYING TO COVER UP THE FACT THAT WE NEVER LANDED ON THE MOON!!!!!111
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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 12:24:56 AM »
Oh, come on, is it not obvious?  THEY WERE TRYING TO COVER UP THE FACT THAT WE NEVER LANDED ON THE MOON!!!!!111
No. They landed on the moon, alright.

They just never came back.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 12:51:05 AM »
That'll bake your noodle. 
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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 03:04:48 AM »
Quote
The BBC puts out the occasional request for copies anyone may have of old TV shows. Think quite a bit of the original Dr Who was lost this way.

And the Doctor can't just go back and record them?  Geez!
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Gewehr98

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 03:23:43 PM »
They needed the expensive tape to record the later Mars landings.  =D
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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 09:09:30 PM »
No. They landed on the moon, alright.

They just never came back.


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LAK

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2009, 05:31:48 AM »
Digital-makeover???

Are they going to digitally makeover the photos in the 1969 LIFE magazine? If they are, I hope they blow some of the soft layer of dust and put a little crater and scorch mark under the "Lunar Landing Craft"  - it would look alot better than that undisturbed layer of dust sitting there now.

Regolith

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2009, 09:34:54 AM »
Digital-makeover???

Are they going to digitally makeover the photos in the 1969 LIFE magazine? If they are, I hope they blow some of the soft layer of dust and put a little crater and scorch mark under the "Lunar Landing Craft"  - it would look alot better than that undisturbed layer of dust sitting there now.

...why?

There was no blast crater because there wasn't enough force to cause one.  They had slowed the lander down enough that they only needed about 3000 lbs of thrust to land.  It's been estimated that the force caused by the thrusters on landing only amounted to about 1.5 lbs of pressure per square inch. It'd have raised a bit of dust, but not much.  Add in the fact that in a vacuum, the force caused by the thrust dissipates faster than it would someplace that had an atmosphere, and you can see why there wasn't much of a mark on the surface caused by the landing.
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LAK

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2009, 08:22:24 AM »
3,000 pounds? Even with the reduced gravity the site is heavily footprinted by those big lunar boots. If you recall - or watch - the old taped footage you will notice at least once the lunar hiker kicked up quite a bit of dust just hopping around.

Newton's law applies. In a vacuum a proportionally higher rocket thrust is required since the "atmosphere" it is pushing against has almost zero mass even with our gravitational level on earth - let alone under the lesser pull of the moon.

But I am sure it is all there; those primitive 1960s technology still photos just need that modern digital enhancement.

AJ Dual

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 08:50:18 AM »
3,000 pounds? Even with the reduced gravity the site is heavily footprinted by those big lunar boots. If you recall - or watch - the old taped footage you will notice at least once the lunar hiker kicked up quite a bit of dust just hopping around.

Newton's law applies. In a vacuum a proportionally higher rocket thrust is required since the "atmosphere" it is pushing against has almost zero mass even with our gravitational level on earth - let alone under the lesser pull of the moon.

But I am sure it is all there; those primitive 1960s technology still photos just need that modern digital enhancement.

On the landing sequence, you could see all the dust radiating away from the lander as it touched down. The problem is more that the gray dust/regolith and the gray subsurface rock look just about identical. And that the dust/regolith depth is just only about an inch inch-and-a-half in most places. Also, the average albedo of the Moon is about that of fresh black asphalt. It just looks gray/white due to overexposure under full sun. (If you could magically transport a chunk of terrestrial parking lot lit by noonday sun to nighttime, it would look just as brilliant as the Moon does.) So the "dust crater" probably is there under the lander with scrubbed subsurface bedrock, it's just not that visible because it's only an inch deep, and it's a matter of trying to see dark black dust against dark black rock under the shadow of the lander.

Also, out from underneath the lander and the rocket wash, the expelled dust went from a fluid dynamic type of propogation to a purely ballistic one as the miniscule pressure from the exhaust gasses fell away quickly and the dust particles were on a purely ballistic vaccuum trajectory so it would not spread in the way your brain which has been trained from birth to understand the dynamics of living in atmosphere.

Also, your understanding of Newton's law is well...  :laugh:

A rocket's thrust pushes against nothing but it's exhaust, it's momentum transfer from expelled mass. Whether it's in atmosphere or vaccuum. If anything, operating in atmosphere requires more thrust because you're overcoming the drag on the entire rocket, and operating in atmosphere tends to reduce your specific impulse because it clamps down on the expulsion velocity of the exhaust gasses.

Here's an analogy, If you sit on a wheeled office chair and push yourself across the room by throwing heavy books, do the books push you by pushing on the air that then somehow pushes you back? Of course not, you "push" by throwing the book, and it's one single interaction that propels you the other way. One of those books behaves exactly the same as one molocule of exhaust gas from a rocket.

It's okay though, I had to explain this to my high-school physics teacher as well. He wasn't a science teacher by trade, just new, and got assigned that class by default and only had the textbook to work from.  =)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 09:04:42 AM by AJ Dual »
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LAK

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 04:23:14 AM »
Quote
On the landing sequence, you could see all the dust radiating away from the lander as it touched down. The problem is more that the gray dust/regolith and the gray subsurface rock look just about identical. And that the dust/regolith depth is just only about an inch inch-and-a-half in most places. Also, the average albedo of the Moon is about that of fresh black asphalt. It just looks gray/white due to overexposure under full sun. (If you could magically transport a chunk of terrestrial parking lot lit by noonday sun to nighttime, it would look just as brilliant as the Moon does.) So the "dust crater" probably is there under the lander with scrubbed subsurface bedrock, it's just not that visible because it's only an inch deep, and it's a matter of trying to see dark black dust against dark black rock under the shadow of the lander.
You make the assumption that the dust layer is uniformly so deep. Evidently so did NASA when they picked the landing site - unless they used technology unstated to tell them otherwise beforehand.

Your described "picture" of what the appearance of the surface underneath the craft on the ground doesn't jive with the NASA photos published in the 1969 issue of LIFE magazine; which are what I am using for reference here. There is no shadow under the craft, and the surface detail - at least as far as that primitive 60's photography reveals - is quite sharp. At least a sharp as the other photos published that show the surface, the lunar hiking footprints etc. The craft "feet" are neatly planted and uniformly clean. Thre is no evidence of any disturbance having taken place of the ground directly underneath the craft.

Quote
Also, out from underneath the lander and the rocket wash, the expelled dust went from a fluid dynamic type of propogation to a purely ballistic one as the miniscule pressure from the exhaust gasses fell away quickly and the dust particles were on a purely ballistic vaccuum trajectory so it would not spread in the way your brain which has been trained from birth to understand the dynamics of living in atmosphere.
Funny; that's not what I recall seeing in the moving footage of the lunar hiker jumping around kicking up the same dust.

And even in a vacuum, a rocket motor works in relative principle under Newton's law. It is not just the mass of expanding gas; it is reliant on the pressure and velocity of the expanding gas. The effect of reduced gravity on the relative weight of the craft apply equally to the mass of the expanding gas, and a corresponding effect on the pressure and velocity of the expelled gas.

Like I said - I am sure it is all there. It just needs that digital magic to make it work on film.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 04:30:59 AM by LAK »

AJ Dual

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 09:45:23 AM »
So are we discussing just the oddities of how things look/behave in a vaccuum and 1/6th lunar surface gravity, or whether or not the landing actually happened?

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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 12:00:51 PM »
Quote
or whether or not the landing actually happened?
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From what I was able to decipher, the video was downlinked at one NASA station then analog broadcast to other sites for distribution
Since this end distribution copy was the "broadcast master", this is the version we have seen since 1969.
They were searching for the downlink master & this is what was lost & possibly reused.

The best copy would have been what was recorded up on the moon, but i gather that was not recorded on tape & return flighted.

What you need to skull out is this was back in 1969.
An iphone has more resolution & storage capacity than the Lunar Lander's media hardware.

NASA also has an issue with the custom "one of one" 87 track media recorders from that era.
They have miles of data tapes in storage at Greenbelt, but they don't have the 1971 hardware to play it back upon.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 12:33:12 PM »
I've found a great deal on a 1960's vintage Vidcon tube camera that was found in an old abandoned soundstage on a closed military base out in the Arizona desert.

Is anyone interested?  =D
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Original Moon Landing Tapes Erased
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 07:03:53 PM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"